Which hand for groceries?

[PegLegPeat]

Since I started CCW'ing several years ago I have trained myself and my family to keep my right (strong side) hand free. If I am carrying groceries it is in my left (off-hand), If my wife of children are holding my hand to cross a street/ parking lot it is my left, etc. My thinking being that if I had to draw and fire with just my right it would be a little slower, but I could do it. If i had to do it all with my left it would be way slow because I wear my gun set up to draw from the right and my accuracy with my off hand is pretty poor. I also worry that in a bad situation my wife/ kids might tense up and death grip my hand so hard that I could not pull away and deal with the threat.
Last weekend I took a class (first in a series) from an instructor about the more tactical side of concealed carry. His teaching / advice was exactly the opposite. That if you could keep a hand free make it the off hand, because it is needed first to pull up / back a cover garment, and you will be forced to drop what is in your strong side hand to draw the weapon. He noted several instances of folks in self defense situations who when the smoke cleared were still hold something in their off hand that they were before things went bad (ticket book, groceries etc.)
What hand do the folks here keep open? or do you even worry about it?

 

[DT Guy]

When I was an LEO, I was trained to use my wallet and keys with my left hand; I still carry my wallet in my left pocket, in fact. The idea was that if caught while using a key or my wallet (two relatively vulnerable situations) I'd be ready to draw my weapon. We also 'practiced' dropping things we were carrying things in our strong hand to draw our weapon, to reinforce the idea that drawing the weapon trumps EVERYTHING when necessary.


Larry

 

[Sav .250]

I am aware of the possibility but don`t live with the constant thought of being in ready mode. Unless you may live in Chicago.

 

[entropy]

In the military you are taught to keep the right hand free except when carrying a rifle, so as to be able to salute 2LT's that will insist on salutes when most officers won't. (like when you have both hands full)
I too, learned to carry my wallet on the left side, though through osmosis; my dad was a cop.
I also took the time to practice getting the gun out one handed, either by sweeping the cover garment back or up.
As for family members grabbing your gun hand, that's something you need to teach out of them, young kids, just tell them Daddy needs his hands free, the wife you can explain why-it truly would be a death grip.

 

[Dog Soldier]

I suspect I am more likely to drop the grocery bag and break a jar of peanut butter. The facts are many civilians surprised by armed conflicts forget they have a handgun. We are not all born gun fighters.
More times should be spent developing response. Maybe less time on "What if".

 

[PegLegPeat]

Dog Soldier- You are probably correct. Hence taking the class

 

[Jeff White]

Last weekend I took a class (first in a series) from an instructor about the more tactical side of concealed carry. His teaching / advice was exactly the opposite. That if you could keep a hand free make it the off hand, because it is needed first to pull up / back a cover garment, and you will be forced to drop what is in your strong side hand to draw the weapon. He noted several instances of folks in self defense situations who when the smoke cleared were still hold something in their off hand that they were before things went bad (ticket book, groceries etc.)

That really depends on how you carry. If you are carrying under a vest, jacket or open, untucked shirt you'll sweep the cover garment away with your strong side hand. Let's face it, many of us do things that require us to have both hands occupied. I think the best way to train is to teach yourself to drop whatever is in your hands. I created a drill for just that event. The drill simulated an attack on the PD parking lot where the officer had both hands occupied walking either to or from his squad. It was physically impossible to carry your long gun, computer and patrol bag in one hand at the start or end of a shift. Since we carried our long guns cruiser ready the drill was to drop everything you were carrying at the threat indication and engage with your handgun.

Drop whatever you are carrying and get into the fight. If you are holding the hand of your significant other or a child push them out of the danger area if possible when letting go.

Anything that breaks when it hits the ground can be replaced.

 

[lemaymiami]

My early police training emphasized always having your strong hand free at all times... and to this day, more than forty years later it's still an ingrained habit. I open doors, carry stuff, etc with my weak hand -even though I haven't carried a sidearm in over twenty years now. I also still look around corners before walking around corners (not a bad habit to cultivate). No, I don't believe I've ever needed either of these "habits" but if only needed once either one might make a difference in a sudden encounter.

For those not living on the street the way young cops do or living in a combat zone, training classes will help form good habits -but they'll only "take" if you practice them religiously....

 

[JO JO]

In the military you are taught to keep the right hand free except when carrying a rifle, so as to be able to salute 2LT's that will insist on salutes when most officers won't.

So true, had to respect the rank but never liked those guy's much anyway I still carry item's in my left hand and keep my right hand freed up , I think is a good habit to have.

 

[JO JO]

My early police training emphasized always having your strong hand free at all times... and to this day, more than forty years later it's still an ingrained habit. I open doors, carry stuff, etc with my weak hand -even though I haven't carried a sidearm in over twenty years now. I also still look around corners before walking around corners (not a bad habit to cultivate).

I never thought about it but you guy's are right the stuff that was pounded in our heads in the Service or LE and we continue to do this in our everyday life

 

[JO JO]

That if you could keep a hand free make it the off hand, because it is needed first to pull up / back a cover garment, and you will be forced to drop what is in your strong side hand to draw the weapon

I would disagree this is just 1 instructors opinion, think about it if you are carrying something in you strong side and someone grabs it to take it from you now they have control of your strong arm or may have injured your strong arm in the process of ripping the item from you hand I can not think of any reasons I would want to handicap my strong arm in anyway goes against every thing I was tought , to each their own

 

[strambo]

I keep my right (dominant) hand free and practice drawing with just my right hand while striking with (or holding something) with the left.

That said, it doesn't matter at all either way IMHO. So long as you keep 1 free and practice your method whilst staying alert and aware of your surroundings your good to go.

Anyone can argue it either way with endless hypotheticals as to which is better. A preoccupation with inconsequential increments to paraphrase the late Col. Cooper.

 

[jeepnik]

OWB crossdraw. I can reach it easily with either hand.

 

[lemaymiami]

One last comment -this one about instructors... Most are competent and interested in passing along info to folks involved in one discipline or other... but not all of them. In the Army, then in police work, then getting a captain's license to operate a charter boat I've run into a few that were pretty much out in the ozone... Bring your critical focus to any training session -and be willing to do a bit of research and ask questions if something being taught isn't exactly a good idea.... No, I'm not suggesting a challenge to your instructor - but don't leave your head at home either...

 

[strambo]

One last comment -this one about instructors... Most are competent and interested in passing along info to folks involved in one discipline or other... but not all of them. In the Army, then in police work, then getting a captain's license to operate a charter boat I've run into a few that were pretty much out in the ozone... Bring your critical focus to any training session -and be willing to do a bit of research and ask questions if something being taught isn't exactly a good idea.... No, I'm not suggesting a challenge to your instructor - but don't leave your head at home either...

That's a good post. My touchpoint has always been "would I bet my life or my family's life on this technique?" If so, fine, if not I do more research to try and find a more effective way. There often is not a clear answer though.

A good notion from the book "Fight Like Physicist" is the idea that nobody in the world is a "expert/master" at fighting or combat. It is generally held that mastery takes about 10,000 hours at a given task. Even Pro MMA fighters never get anywhere near 10,000 hours in actual matches never mind any soldier or cop, not even Tier 1 guys. They are all masters of training for...the ring or combat.

We can never have scientific studies or objective data to work with when it comes to fighting/combat, just anecdotal. 2 well-meaning instructors can teach for example a gun-disarm in a totally different way with each of them having done it "for real" so that "proves" it works. Each can insist the other method would likely get you killed. How do you decide? Ears would smoke, they both have combat experience doing their technique, and used it for real, and survived, yet say the other is "wrong."

Similarly, talk to a handful of very combat experienced Tier 1 soldiers and ask them if Krav Maga or BJJ is better for hand to hand combat (or insert whatever). They will give you their opinion, and you should definitely heed it well...but none of them have participated in, nor observed enough actual H2H situations with both of only those 2 choices (never mind all of the options) to objectively say either way.

I think the best that we can do is general observations of this should be better than that, but getting into the weeds of which hand to keep free or whether a tactical reload is needed or gun capacity, caliber, shoot while moving vs. shoot then move etc. Nobody can say for sure. It is safe to say training MMA beats Tai-Chi, practicing more like an IDPA match beats practicing more like a bullseye match, etc.

Pick a reputable instructor and actually train something, then you will be ahead of 99% of the population. Expect your methods to shift as new ones are learned or new data becomes available, be flexible, but don't just go with each new trend automatically.

 

[bangswitch]

I'm with Dog Soldier on this--- screw the milk and eggs, they'll be ditched quickly; they could even be used to distract the threat by pitching them in his direction. And as for holding to the loved-ones hands, if I recognize the threat in time, they'll get pushed away, or to the ground. The threat would be drawn to my response of drawing my weapon to meet the threat, and I want them out of the line of fire.

 

[Armored farmer]

My wife knows where I like to sit in a restaurant, with my strong side towards the wall.
We both have made a habit of finding the marked exits as soon as we sit down.
We don't make a big deal out of it...just do it.

Our instructor spent as much time on avoiding an incident as anything..

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

I'm probably the least experienced person to carry that has or will comment, but I will nonetheless.

The topic at hand is something I instinctively thought about on my own when I started carrying this past summer. I initially thought it prudent to have my strong hand free and got in the habit of carrying items (when possible) with my off hand. However I quickly came to realize, as has been mentioned in this thread by others, that regardless of what hand (possibly both) you're holding something with should not be a major concern. Regardless of how you're holding said "things", DROP EVERYTHING and get on task. That is of the utmost importance.

Nothing can prepare us for the real thing, all we can do is plan, prepare and practice.

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

That's a good post. My touchpoint has always been "would I bet my life or my family's life on this technique?" If so, fine, if not I do more research to try and find a more effective way. There often is not a clear answer though.

A good notion from the book "Fight Like Physicist" is the idea that nobody in the world is a "expert/master" at fighting or combat. It is generally held that mastery takes about 10,000 hours at a given task. Even Pro MMA fighters never get anywhere near 10,000 hours in actual matches never mind any soldier or cop, not even Tier 1 guys. They are all masters of training for...the ring or combat.

We can never have scientific studies or objective data to work with when it comes to fighting/combat, just anecdotal. 2 well-meaning instructors can teach for example a gun-disarm in a totally different way with each of them having done it "for real" so that "proves" it works. Each can insist the other method would likely get you killed. How do you decide? Ears would smoke, they both have combat experience doing their technique, and used it for real, and survived, yet say the other is "wrong."

Similarly, talk to a handful of very combat experienced Tier 1 soldiers and ask them if Krav Maga or BJJ is better for hand to hand combat (or insert whatever). They will give you their opinion, and you should definitely heed it well...but none of them have participated in, nor observed enough actual H2H situations with both of only those 2 choices (never mind all of the options) to objectively say either way.

I think the best that we can do is general observations of this should be better than that, but getting into the weeds of which hand to keep free or whether a tactical reload is needed or gun capacity, caliber, shoot while moving vs. shoot then move etc. Nobody can say for sure. It is safe to say training MMA beats Tai-Chi, practicing more like an IDPA match beats practicing more like a bullseye match, etc.

Pick a reputable instructor and actually train something, then you will be ahead of 99% of the population. Expect your methods to shift as new ones are learned or new data becomes available, be flexible, but don't just go with each new trend automatically.

That's a great post but I would just like to nitpick your "expert/master 10k hours" thing you mentioned.

In any given art/trade the average person that puts in 40hrs a week would take 5yrs to attain your acclaimed requirements. As an example, I'm not sure how many hours on the mat Royce Gracie has but I know he fought professionally for over a decade. I have no idea how much mat time he had before that.

Point being, there are folks that any sensible person would consider a "master" at, keeping in mind that any true "master" is still always learning. That goes for any art/trade.

 

[strambo]

Good 'Ol Boy. The concept is about being a "master" of the actual fighting or combat vs. training for it. So, even with Joyce Gracie, how long is the typical match? That time in minutes times how many he has fought equals his time in actual "fights". "Sparring" and "training" doesn't count, that's training. A typical Pro MMA fighter fights a couple per year at 15 minutes or less each.

The analogy came from a book about striking for martial artists, but the concept definitely holds up for gun fighting, combat, street altercations etc. There isn't anyone on the planet with thousands of hours of real combat time. Actual time spent in fire-fights. Even air combat, you can fly thousands of hours in combat missions but 99% of it is just transit from point A to point B. Same for ground combat, time in transit to and from, tons of time at the PX and gym, training, watching movies in your bunk. A few minutes of combat every once in awhile.

He wasn't saying there aren't any "masters" just pointing out that they probably don't have a "mastery" of fighting and a master level of fighting experience from a statistical standpoint of thousands of hours doing it, rather a master level of training backed up by some fighting experience.

I thought the insight was very applicable to the firearms training industry. Even the instructor with the best combat resume, probably has little actual time in combat, but it is backed by thousands of hours of training and training (you) for combat is what they are (hopefully) good at.

 

[lemaymiami]

For the guy who said he'd push away or push down loved ones if a fight it imminent.... There might be a better way. I was taught to maneuver immediately away from other potential targets (even my own family) and engage directly any threat. The idea was to give a potential opponent something other than your wife/kids to think about (and hopefully your loved ones will be removing themselves from the conflict as you engage).... No, it's not something you ever want to be involved in - but there are times when an immediate intervention is the only way to respond to an on-coming threat. As my Dad used to say - "don't just stand there -do something even if it's wrong". He was Corps of Engineers from 1942 to 1970, volunteered for the draft way back when, became an officer eventually and managed to be in some difficult places over the years. Wish he were still around.

 

[jmorris]

I try very hard to not grocery shopping with children, it's not a safety thing as much as a sanity issue. Same thing with the wife, I go to the store to buy, with a list. She goes to "shop", so I make a list and go when I have time alone.

I don't have one around the corner so when I do go, I generally come out with a cart full vs a hand full. In any case you could grab a cart for a bag of chips if you wanted and instantly have your hands free.

All that said, just look somewhat aware of what is going on around you and you will instantly become a less than ideal target, in a sea of people living in their own little world oblivious to anything going on around them.

 

[MedWheeler]

I carry whatever in my strong (left) hand. If I have to draw, whatever that is gets dropped. My weak hand is reserved for unarmed defensive use. When I moonlighted delivering pizzas, even the food got strong-hand carried (the weak hand carried the 4-cell.)

When my daughter was an infant and frequently carried in an infant carrier, even she would be carried in my strong hand, at least, when my wife was with us. The plan was that, if accosted in a potentially-lethal manner, the carrier would be dropped and I would move away from it, drawing the attacker's attention, as my wife moved in and grabbed it. The infant carrier was carried in my weak hand if I was otherwise alone.

 

[hdwhit]

Since I started CCW'ing several years ago I have trained myself and my family to keep my right (strong side) hand free. If I am carrying groceries it is in my left (off-hand), If my wife of children are holding my hand to cross a street/ parking lot it is my left, etc.

What kind of neighborhood do you live in that the time it would take to drop a sack of groceries would be a factor in your survival?

 

[Arkansas Paul]

My wife knows where I like to sit in a restaurant, with my strong side towards the wall.
We both have made a habit of finding the marked exits as soon as we sit down.
We don't make a big deal out of it...just do it.

I like to sit near the kitchen entrance when at a restaurant.
My main goal if out with my family and a shooting of some kind occurs is to get them out of the line of fire and to safety.
In the event of a shooter, everyone in the place will storm the front door. I doubt many will head to the kitchen.
Kitchens have to have exit doors per fire code. Not many people think about that. There's less of a chance people will be rushing that one.