Which modern shootouts changed the way we think?

[Edmond]

I'm just doing a little reading and wondered what you guys thought were the landmark shootouts that changed the policy, training and tactics of law enforcement.

I can think of the FBI shootout in Miami as well as the North Hollywood shootout. What other ones?

How do you guys think those shootouts changed the way LE looked at their weaponry and tactics?

 

[Gifted]

Columbine was another. No more waiting around for the SWAT team for most departments. 9/11 changed the way we look at hijackings. Those are probably the two biggest I know of.

 

[another okie]

Don't bring a handgun to a rifle fight.

 

[Fosbery]

When the SAS had their shootout at Qala-i-Janghi, it convinced me that you can fire an FN MAG from the hip.

 

[Exposure]

St. Valentines Day Massacre.

While not a shootout, it probably did more harm to the image of the machine gun and their owners than anything else ever did.

The gangsters gave the machine gun a negative image it still suffers from today, some 77 years later.

 

[P95Carry]

N Hollywood maybe more than any other - showed how cops MUST have fast access to rifles - and not have to wait for a SWAT unit. I guess Miami did too but not quite so obviously perhaps.

On that N Hollywood day - both slimes could have been taken out in fairly short order by some concentrated M16 fire.

 

[Deanimator]

N Hollywood maybe more than any other - showed how cops MUST have fast access to rifles - and not have to wait for a SWAT unit. I guess Miami did too but not quite so obviously perhaps.

On that N Hollywood day - both slimes could have been taken out in fairly short order by some concentrated M16 fire.

Actually it demonstrated the danger of a fixation on "tacticool". The cops didn't need M16s. The cheapest centerfire hunting rifle would have done those two in in seconds. One man with a bargain .270 or .30-06 Savage from Walmart would have saved the day.

 

[P95Carry]

The cops didn't need M16s. The cheapest centerfire hunting rifle would have done those two in in seconds. One man with a bargain .270 or .30-06 Savage from Walmart would have saved the day.

Couldn't agree more but .......... if the cops had had rifles they would most likely have been ''tacticool'' issues!!!

In fact someone on hand with a good deer rifle, per your mention of a thirty aught six - , even a nice 45-70 etc - could have done the business pretty quick!

 

[grampster]

Back in 1968 one of my fellow officers (and a friend) got shot dead through a door.

I'd always stood to the side of the door and knocked when we were sent to a call at a residence. (Assuming your entry was not in hot pursuit, etc) You had the whole house between you and potential harm and the BG would probably think you were in front of the door. I had always pointed this out to various guys I worked with.

After the shooting, that tactic became part of the training in rookie school.

 

[GEM]

Newhall - training views

Waco - changed views of that kind of standoff

Texas Tower - prime mover in forming SWAT teams

Killeen massacre - push for CCW - not really a shootout though.

I think the Tyler and Washington State Mall shootout should be seminal for CCW types as incidents which went bad for the civilian due to tactics and mindset

 

[grampster]

JFK's assassination was the beginning of the bellicose attitude toward firearms. Mailorder purchases directly to the buyer were halted by law.

 

[Davo]

N. Hollywood, I remember that day quite well. Ive talked to a couple guys who were there, it is now odd to think that just 10 years ago many cops didnt have shotguns, let alone some form of rifle.

 

[lionking]

I was literally about a 700yds away down the street from the Miami shootout at a gas station and never heard a shot fired.All I saw was cop cars from every possible department come barreling from all directions.

 

[Edmond]

Could you guys also give your opinions on how/why those events changed the LE community or even the gun community in general?

When North Hollywood happened, I was in high school and didn't pay much attention back then.

 

[10-Ring]

Miami, N. Hollywood, WTC...all taught us alot & changed the way we approach 1st responses and our idea of readiness.

 

[Bruce H]

The Miami lesson is don't let your ego get you killed. Be prepaired for your quarry to be the absolute meanest thing you have ever seen.

North Hollywood = enough gun and proper placement.

 

[Lambo119]

Since 1990 this is what I have observed as major trainig changes as a LEO due to critical incidents.

Miami: The need to have some standardization in small arms. Some agents were out of ammo and due to a difference in caliber partners could not share. This was before my time but was pushed hard as a training senerio. I started in the middle of the big manditory revolver(.357) to auto(9mm) transition that was linked directly to the "shootout in sunyland".

N. Hollywood: For the need to have at least a few rifles issued per shift for more precise fire over distance.

Columbine: Has changed the way that “active shooters” are dealt with. No longer is it correct to lockdown an area and attempt to negotiate. With the “active shooter” scenario the threat is to be neutralized ASAP.

911: Think outside the box. Not all threats come with bullets and ski masks. Information sharing is more streamlined and open.

Plus many many more less publicized shootouts that LEO's use as training tools have changed the whole gamit of duties from traffic stops to routine patroling procedures to yes even how you approach doors.

 

[Gifted]

911: Think outside the box. Not all threats come with bullets and ski masks. Information sharing is more streamlined and open.

The other issue is that before then, hijackings weren't seen as a live-die scenario. If they wanted to blow the jet, it would be a bomb. A hijacker wanted other things, such as money or TV time. Much like Columbine, the attittude of EVERYBODY(not just the sky marshalls and such) was neutralize immediately, rather than negotiate or keep a low profile.

 

[Lambo119]

Gifted, On target!

 

[Soybomb]

Killeen massacre - push for CCW - not really a shootout though.

Certainly this along with several other "people minding their own business" shootings weighed onto my personal decision about carrying.

 

[ExtremeDooty]

I think even the Amish School shooting tells us that no place is safe and swat should take the first shot they get, no waiting around to negotiate. I think the starting of negotiations needs to be justified more than jumping in and taking action.

One thing I never understood about the Hollywood shoot out. Why didn't the bad guys get shot in the legs or head. I understand that the LEO's were under heavy auto fire with moving targets, so I'm not trying to monday morning quarterback. It seems like some of the LEO shots rapidly aimed at COM would go high or low because of the tension of being shot at, or just out of luck. I understood that the BG's were chest and back plates, cut what about their arms, legs, sides and head. Seems like lethal shots could have been made, even if by accident. Am I missing something?

 

[crew590]

What about Ruby Ridge? I have only heard about it in passing, so I don't know exactly what went on. (It's 1 am and I don't feel like doing a Google search right now. ).

Jay

 

[thexrayboy]

Another major shootout was the 1985 Norco bank robbery shootout. The robbers were chased through SO. Cal freeway traffic for many miles. They were shooting at pursuing officers with AR and HK type caliber weapons from the back of a fleeing truck while attempting to escape into the San Gabriel mountains north of Riverside. Numerous police vehicles sustained damage, they fired on a police helicopter and successfully made it into heavy brush where they were hunted down by multiple agencies. If memory serves one officer died and 2 of the 4 bank robbers died.

 

[zamboxl]

(Dooty) i think one of them was shot in the leg, plus from talking to leos about that same subject the answer i got was that they simply din't train to hit moving targets under such a stressfull circumstances. Though you would think with all the bullets they would have gotten lucky lol

 

[thexrayboy]

Only the initial phase of the Ruby Ridge episode could be called a shootout. It started with US marshalls in camo approaching Randy Weavers home. The marshalls ran into Weavers son and a family friend who were out with the family dog. The marshalls shot and killed the dog when it alerted the others to the presence of the marshalls. Randy Weavers son and the man he was with challenged the marshalls. A short exchange of gunfire ensued leaving one marshall shot and Randy Weavers teenage son shot and the family friend wounded. The marshalls retreated, regrouped and called in the FBI. The Weavers holed up in the family cabin.

The shootings that ocurred after that point were technically sniping. The FBI
changed its rules of engagement to allow snipers to fire upon any person with a weapon seen outside. Even if the weapon was not being aimed but just held.

This is what led to the death of Vicki Weaver at the hands of Lon Horiuchi, the FBI agent who fired at Randy Weaver as he was running back to his cabin. The round penetrated the cabin door and struck her as she was holding the door open for her husband. She was holding an infant at the time who escaped injury.