Which Tool For the Job: .454 or .45/70

Status
Not open for further replies.

HMMurdock

Member
Joined
May 5, 2006
Messages
431
Location
Indiana, the home of John Dillinger
I am looking for a good lever action rifle for general shooting and to one day take with me for "animal defense" in Alaska.

I won't be "hunting", per se, with the rifle, just taking it with me on long excursions for general purpose and for the worst case scenario.

Which caliber in a lever action would be preferable? .454 Casull or .45-70 Gov't and for what reasons?

Thanks in advance.
 
General opinion for dangerous alaskan animal defense seems to lean towards the 12ga shotgun using slugs. Just ask most guides in the know, 12ga is best.
 
.45-70, all the way.


"Stock" loads will net you about the same muzzle energy, but .454 has a much higher chamber pressure and puts much more stress on the gun. It was designed as a revolver cartridge, not a long gun cartridge. .45-70, on the other hand, was originally a black powder cartridge designed for rifles with long barrels, and has very low chamber pressures. Despite this, they can be safely hand-loaded to far exceed any possible muzzle energy you could get out of a .454 round.

Plus .45-70 Government sounds freaking cool. ;)

Just remember, at longer ranges, you'll need the vernier sights that come with most rifles chambered for that cartridge. That's a huge, slow bullet being pushed, and it arcs like an artillery shell at range.
 
I have lever action rifles chambered in both cartridges that you are asking about. Both of these rifles are set up for defense with iron or ghost ring sights.

My 45-70 is a 18 1/2" barreled Marlin 1895GS and is stainless steel.

I load this rifle with 300gr Hornady or Barnes X bullets at top velocities, 405gr WLNGC's @ 1950fps and 550gr Crater's @ 1600fps.

My 454 Casull is a 20" barreled LSI Puma M92 that is also stainless steel.

I load 300gr XTP-Mag's @ 2250fps and 360gr C/P WLNGC's @ 1860fps and C/P 395gr WLNGC @ 1550fps.

Both rifles are about the same weight and overall length.

As you can see both rifles give awesome performance but if I were to have to choose one of these rifles to take to Alaska it would the 45-70 without any hesitation.

Here is a pic of my Marlin 1895GS...

459490.jpg
 
Several guys that I know who go to alaska on a regular basis have .45-70. Never needed to use them (thank goodness!), but they don't feel comfortable with anything less. And somehow, methinks that if you ever had to use it, you'd want one heckuva powerful round flying out the end of that barrel, and .45-70 should do the trick.

This is one of those "get what you know will work instances, not a "what could suffice to kill that charging [fill in the blank]".

If you're going to take a .454, it'd better be a revolver, and should not substitute for your main weapon. .45-70 is a heavier bullet that is going faster--which is a combo you'll need, if you wind up having to use it. Frankly, where I work, if you wanted to buy a .454 levergun for potential alaskan defense, I couldn't sell you one in good conscience, and would push you to buy the .45-70 (and no, I don't get a commission off of it).

Jackal is right, though--a 12 gauge slug is the best option, but the .45-70 is a close second. That, and it gives you a good excuse to buy a different rifle. If you do buy it, though, a suggestion--get a good gunsmith to make it a "takedown" rifle; several of the guys I mentioned in the first lines have done that, and it helps when cargo dimensions must be limited (they ususally get to their fishing holes in little civilian planes, and the space saved is, literally, a "life-saver"). HTH, and good luck.
 
from the website i sent you...

Alaskan CoPilot in .457 WWMagnum/45-70 $1980.00
Alaskan CoPilot in .50 Alaskan $2230.00
Deduct $385.00 if you provide us with your rifle
Also available in 30/30, 35 Rem, 44 mag, 357 and 45 Colt for $1999.00

Justin
 
Actually when the 45-70 is loaded to it's potential in a Marlin 1895 it is a ballistic twin to the 450 Marlin.

Here is a couple of video clips of me shooting my Marlin 1895GS 45-70 with my top loaded 405gr RNFPGC Bullet Barn cast bullets @ 1950fps.

I'd have to say that there isn't much that a Marlin 1895GS and the 45-70 wouldn't be able to stop...

I can only time the shots by watching the timer on the video clip but it looks like 3 seconds for the 3 shots in both of the video clips. The first attempt resulted in a 4 1/2" 25 yard group and the second attempt was a 4 3/4" 25 yard group.

Here's a link to YouTube...

1st attempt... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1YCl_1lsta4

2nd attempt... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1XdONEdTYs

Here's the photo of me with both targets, the first group is in my left hand and if I measured all 6 shots combined they measure about 5 1/4"...

All groups where measured from outside to outside of the widest shots.

463474.jpg



__________________
 
trstafford:Why not go with the 450 Marlin. I didn't think the recoil was bad ans it has more power than 45-70.


That's what I was thinking. I thought the recoild was heavy, but I think I was anticipating the damage the lever was doing to my knuckles. If you go .450, buy a bigger lever.

I'm no reloader, but seem to remember that maximum offerings in .45-70 could not equal .450 Marlin - at least not factory loads. So, if you don't reload or don't want to, the .450 seems to have a more flat trajectory. I know it absolutely made a huge difference on the range. I with my .450 and my buddy with his 45-70 (both unported Guide Guns) - taking a few shots with the 45-70 was a bit of a vacation from the wicked belted 450. The 325 Hornady I was firing was an arse-kicker - much more so it seemed than the Hornady 45-70. If you reload, YMMV...
 
Take a look at Garrett's offerings in .45/70 and I think you'll have your answer. For big animals, the heaver bullet is just a lot more reassuring.
 
Marlin Model 1895GS "Guide Gun" (in stainless w/ported barrel).

Disclaimer: I've never used one of these to hunt but in handling one I have to agree with the points made in this article from shooting times. I found his comments on a good recoil pad and the porting to be accurate.

Also another article mentioning the Garrett loads.

If you want the same thing converted to a takedown model see THIS LINK (whoops, same link as listed above...DOH!)
 
Buffalo Bore makes some hot loads in .45-70 as well (called .45-70 magnum to differentiate it from standard loads. Magnums only to be used in modern firearms, not a Littlebighorn pick-ups :p )
 
45-70 would be my choice...

But you could also get a 50 Beowulf. Now that would make some great bear defense. 20 325gr slugs at almost 2000 fps in a 7 pound semi-auto with a 16" barrel would be a nice bear stopper.
 
Alaskan Bear Gun

Was stationed on both Kodiak and Sitka Islands with the Coast Guard in the mid 80's and early 90's. Very good buddy of mine (deceased) was a Trooper/Fish Cop. We both hunted with TC Contenders 30-30's but carried 870's with sights for protection. Loaded the first 3 with slugs and the last was 00 for an up close and personal face shot. Don't know what the Troopers protocols are these days but I'm sure they would give you their recommendation. Felt very comfortable sleeping at night in a fortified (ripstop nylon) tent with the 870 next to me.

Roger ASTCS USCG Helicopter Rescue Swimmer ret.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top