Who Else Has Finally Figured Out That Sub-Compacts Are a CCW Handicap?

Alllen Bundy said:
Bear spray appears to be more effective than most pistols. I remember reading one account where they found over 20 bullets that were stopped inside the bear's fat layer.

Just give the bear your pic-a-nic basket and back away!
Click to expand...

Not if you actually hit the bear. If you look at the actual study of firearm usage, it shows 97% effectiveness against bears, but the 3% was due to a missed bear. Bear spray is effective, but not 100%, and pistols are near that level. Be careful of the skewed research by those who don't want people carrying weapons at all. make no mistake, they are extremely effective in ending bear attacks, including grizzly, and including "inadequate calibers" like 9mm.

https://sportingclassicsdaily.com/d...tols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/
 
GarnetandBlack said:
Not if you actually hit the bear. If you look at the actual study of firearm usage, it shows 97% effectiveness against bears, but the 3% was due to a missed bear. Bear spray is effective, but not 100%, and pistols are near that level. Be careful of the skewed research by those who don't want people carrying weapons at all. make no mistake, they are extremely effective in ending bear attacks, including grizzly, and including "inadequate calibers" like 9mm.

https://sportingclassicsdaily.com/d...tols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/
Click to expand...
I seen bears get shot, tumble, get up, and start charging again Iike they were never hit. I seen the same with some wild hogs. Handgun rounds aren't even 97% effective with humans as the overwhelming number of gun shot victims survive, so I'm not sure that I believe the 97% figure for bears is accurate. Heck, I've seen deer shot by rifles get up and still run away.

Shot the bear with a 10mm handgun bear being pinned to the ground. Lucky to be alive.
 
Last edited:
Capybara said:
Ballistics gel is expensive and shooting the tests was a PITA but at least I had real world performance testing out of my carry guns.
Click to expand...

Bears and moose and mountain lions are really REALLY expensive. Keeping a stable of human criminal attackers at the ready for "real world performance testing" is generally frowned upon - not to mention the unimaginable expense.

I suppose ballistic gel tests will provide some degree of confidence if you are attacked by a big glob of Jello.
 
  • Like
Reactions: GEM
crstrode said:
Bears and moose and mountain lions are really REALLY expensive. Keeping a stable of human criminal attackers at the ready for "real world performance testing" is generally frowned upon - not to mention the unimaginable expense.

I suppose ballistic gel tests will provide some degree of confidence if you are attacked by a big glob of Jello.
Click to expand...

You're cracking me up! That's good.
 
Styx said:
I seen bears get shot, tumble, get up, and start charging again Iike they were never hit. I seen the same with some wild hogs. Handgun rounds aren't even 97% effective with humans as the overwhelming number of gun shot victims survive, so I'm not sure that I believe the 97% figure for bears is accurate. Heck, I've seen deer shot by rifles get up and still run away.

Shot the bear with a 10mm handgun bear being pinned to the ground. Lucky to be alive.
Click to expand...

The data says that pistols end bear attacks, effectively every time you make a hit. Killing them, or dropping them immediately is a completely different discussion, but this guy analyzed every single bear attack in which a pistol was used. It worked every time, except when the guy missed completely.

You saw a bear charging someone and get shot and maintained the charge? Or, you mean you saw a bear running and get shot and kept running? Two different things.
 
Capybara said:
Thoughts? Anyone else thinking of dumping their subcompact CCW guns for something a mid size like a G19? It's all fine to have a smaller, lighter, less bulky carry gun but if you don't shoot it as well, is comfort everything?
Click to expand...

Carry the biggest that gun you can, but anything is better than nothing. Rule #1 of the gunfight: Have a gun! If comfort was much of anything we'd be leaving our guns at home. It does take more practice to be proficient with a sub-compact.
 
I've only ever owned subcompact and micro handguns. About five years ago, an employee at my range let me shoot a (CT restricted 10 round) mag through his VP9. At 25 feet, I put 9 rounds in a hole the size of a silver dollar with the 10th about an inch away. The sight radius seemed like it was about a foot. I was amazed, and I left rethinking my carry choices, but the fact is, if my carry gun was that large, it would probably spend a lot of time at home.

OTOH, two years ago, I attended a 2 day class, first day classroom, second day shooting. We finished up with a timed shooting drill where I finished 3rd in a class of almost 20 people, shooting a Glock 26. The two guys who beat me were both at least 25 years younger and shooting larger guns. And that 26 was a gun that I would carry every day with no excuses.

I finally had to get rid of the Glock when I could no longer rack the slide without extreme difficulty, but I'm just about as accurate with the P365-380s that replaced it. And a small gun that I will carry every day beats a large gun that will sometimes end up staying home. Just gotta practice.
 
GarnetandBlack said:
The data says that pistols end bear attacks, effectively every time you make a hit. Killing them, or dropping them immediately is a completely different discussion, but this guy analyzed every single bear attack in which a pistol was used. It worked every time, except when the guy missed completely.

You saw a bear charging someone and get shot and maintained the charge? Or, you mean you saw a bear running and get shot and kept running? Two different things.
Click to expand...
A bear get shot and keeps charging. I also do not believe that a bears were shot with a handgun round, and it dropped them 97% of the time. Sorry, but I'm just not buying it especially after I seen smaller animals including human shot with handguns and even rifles who continued to fight or run.

I don't know of many or any who would recommend a 9mm or the like for bears, nor would they agree that they're 97% effective.
 
Pistolay said:
I've only ever owned subcompact and micro handguns. About five years ago, an employee at my range let me shoot a (CT restricted 10 round) mag through his VP9. At 25 feet, I put 9 rounds in a hole the size of a silver dollar with the 10th about an inch away. The sight radius seemed like it was about a foot. I was amazed, and I left rethinking my carry choices, but the fact is, if my carry gun was that large, it would probably spend a lot of time at home.

OTOH, two years ago, I attended a 2 day class, first day classroom, second day shooting. We finished up with a timed shooting drill where I finished 3rd in a class of almost 20 people, shooting a Glock 26. The two guys who beat me were both at least 25 years younger and shooting larger guns. And that 26 was a gun that I would carry every day with no excuses.

I finally had to get rid of the Glock when I could no longer rack the slide without extreme difficulty, but I'm just about as accurate with the P365-380s that replaced it. And a small gun that I will carry every day beats a large gun that will sometimes end up staying home. Just gotta practice.
Click to expand...
Age if you don't mind me asking?
 
Styx said:
A bear get shot and keeps charging. I also do not believe that a bears were shot with a handgun round, and it dropped them 97% of the time. Sorry, but I'm just not buying it especially after I seen smaller animals including human shot with handguns and even rifles who continued to fight or run.

I don't know of many or any who would recommend a 9mm or the like for bears, nor would they agree that they're 97% effective.
Click to expand...

I pasted in the analysis. Believe what you want with anecdotes and what people believe. I look at facts and data, and it’s clear.
 
Capybara said:
Well, I am the OP and began asking about sub/micro compact CCWs versus carrying a compact.
Now we're witnessing arguments about the semantics of how to shoot charging bears? So possibly
Click to expand...
And about the usefulness of bear spray, whether a rifle vs pistol is best for use against a bear, etc.

Capybara said:
Very eye opening videos, thank you for sharing them. It appears that being able to apply multiple grouped hits with a smaller caliber
might be much better against a threat than one or two hits with a large caliber that has more recoil and is typically a bigger, heavier, clunkier
firearm.

You could also see that if that was a real bear, no matter what he shot it with, it still likely would have killed him in most cases unless
it just knocked him over and didn't have a chance to use it's claws and teeth before dying or losing consciousness. He almost always got his last shot off with the "bear"
when the "bear" appeared to be about five feet, less than one bear length from him.

A very creative way to test this.
Click to expand...

Capybara said:
The guy in the video I thought shot pretty well at the bear target considering how fast it was accelerating toward him. He was nailing it in the eye, face and head.
Click to expand...
 
Micro autos are a compromise for me. I live and play where it can, and does, touch 120+ degrees in the shade for months on end. (July 2021 I took a pic of my vehicle thermometer reading 132 parked in a gravel parking lot.) In that type of weather I am packing an LCP II, because anything else sticks right out as my sweat paints my shirt to my skin.

Other days where I can go untucked and not stick out like a sore thumb It’s a CZ 2075 RAMI, or even a CZ 75SP-01, which is also my vehicle trip and nightstand gun. 18 rounds of 147 gr HST in that CGW equipped pistol is a comfortable companion should things get rough.

If I am springtime fishing in the Sierras, it’s a 4.25” Model 69. Honestly, the only bears I have seen in the wild ran away so fast I almost didn’t see them, but in case a hibernation-hungry critter won’t run that .44 is in my rotation. I’d rather have it and not need it, yadda yadda.

Those larger autos certainly do shoot better than the LCP II; I am more accurate and can shoot them faster. Plus, the ammo is most likely going to be more effective stopping a humanoid threat than .380 is, too. But if I can’t pack it it with me a larger sidearm doesn’t do me any good.

This is my particular situation. I really do not care what others may do, as long as they carry legally and are competent and confident in their abilities and gun/ammo choices. OP your situation is obviously different, and after trying out micro guns you have determined that the larger sized gun works best for you.

Great choice, stick with it. :thumbup:

Stay safe.
 
I presently don't have any range within hundreds of miles that rents guns, I'm afraid. So I'm limited to either the ones I buy or guns owned by friends. Of all the "mouse guns" the Beretta 950 is maybe the best shooting. I can ring an IPSC steel @ 50 yards without much trouble! Of course a .25 ACP is just a short step up from being unarmed (provided your foe isn't tied to a chair). The smallest gun I've owned or shot that still works basically as well as a service pistol is the Beretta Nano. With the flush-fitting six-rounder I can't reliably draw the gun and only two or three fingers will fit on the grip. However with the 8-rounders it shoots very nearly as well as my P2000. If it matters I wear XL winter gloves and nitrile gloves smaller than XL will rip on me within a few minutes. I think the gun was kind of a flop but I love mine and carry it a lot in hot weather. IIRC it's still the thinnest or tied for thinnest 9mm on the market. Much smaller than that wouldn't work for me. Well, at least if the gunfight was an impromptu 25 yard bulleye match.

That's the crux of the issue I suppose. I've CCW'd since the early 90s and in that time I've never drawn my sidearm much less fired it. Once or twice in nearly 30 years I felt that I might have to draw, and a few times I was glad I had it despite no clearly articulatable threat. I expect my experience is hardly unique, especially for someone that lives in a small state (population-wise). Still, a buddy of mine texted me a few days ago that there was an armed robbery of the gas station in his podunk town of 2,000 in northern Idaho. Cops caught the perps and shot them in St. Regis, MT. So yeah, it can happen anywhere.

My personal lower limit is my Beretta Nano or Ruger LCRx. If the balloon went up and that's all I had I suppose I'd wish I had my P30 or USP, or better still my PWS Mk114 Mod 1! It probably goes without saying that the choice of a CCW firearm has many criteria, and shootability is only one of them. Lucas McCain got away with carrying his tricked out lever gun everywhere he went but even in Montana that won't fly today.:rofl:

A last observation I'll add is that the search for the ideal CCW is a journey that doesn't seem to have an endpoint, save death. Two years ago I destroyed my right shoulder and could not even hold a gun in my right hand. It was about 18 months before I could even plausibly draw from the 3:30 with my right hand, and to be honest it's still a little bit of stretch. It's getting better but it will never be what it was before my accident. I recall watching a video on the Wilson Combat channel where Bill is sitting there talking with Ken Hackathorn; the latter mentioned that he can't really shoot a .45 ACP anymore. His arthritis in his trigger finger makes it agonizing. Both he and Bill almost exclusively carry 9mms now, although they're still 1911s. I've read a lot of posts over the years about seeking defensive guns for folks with MS, arthritis, Parkinsons, or even just muscular degeneration from age and injury. Some have also had to go away from belt carry due to injuries to the back or shoulder. I can handle my 9s and 40s just fine now but the mileage and the wear-and-tear may necessitate changing my approach down the road.
 
Last edited:
I do not find my P365 to be a handicap compared to a Glock 19. I think other similar sized guns like the S&W Shield Plus and Springfield Hellcat would be similar. What I do know is that I am much more likely to carry a P365 on my belt than a Glock 19, and I think carrying the gun would trump any perceived benefit of the larger gun being more shootable. After all, we all know rule #1 of gunfights.

I do think my LCP Max is a handicap compared to a Glock 19, but then those guns are not in the same niche anyway, so its comparing apples to oranges.
 
Every gun has its own "fit" for my hands. I had a big Beretta that was too large. My thumb to index finger could not close to a paper distance from each other around the handle. I have shot some that were undersized for anyone, gimmick guns awkwardly designed for pocket use. I like the micro 9's. If you are going to carry concealed then keep it as unobtrusive as possible. Why not? Ten round should be more than sufficient. Stats show that actually many less are fired.
 
To get away from the bear silliness, and the OP - here's a study by a reputable expert:

https://blog.krtraining.com/small-gun-class-data-2019-2020/

Conclusions
It’s convenient to have a large and a small gun, used as weather and type of wardrobe dictates. It’s good to be able to shoot at least 70% on the 3SL test with both, better to be able to shoot 90% with both. Being able to shoot a 70% or a 90+% score with the primary gun and gear configuration does NOT guarantee that you’ll be able to do it with the small gun.

Small guns are harder to shoot fast and accurate, deep concealment carry methods slow down draw times — but violent attackers are not going to attack more slowly to compensate for the difficulties imposed by the gear you’ve chosen.

Try this:

  1. Shoot the 3SL test from open carry with your primary gun.
  2. Shoot the 3SL test from concealed carry with your primary gun. Assess the difference in score. More than likely draw time will be the problem, which means dry fire practice, changes to holster, cover garment and/or draw technique may be needed.
  3. Shoot the 3SL test from open carry with your small gun. Identify which parts of the test need improvement, and work on those skills with the small gun.
  4. Shoot the 3SL test from concealed carry with your small gun. Assess whether the concealment method and draw technique you are using needs changing. Or in some cases, accept that the wardrobe or other restrictions forcing you to carry in a way that has to be compensated for in other ways than changing carry method: being more cautious, reaching in your pocket to grip a pocket pistol earlier in a potential situation than you had in the past, giving yourself more space and time.
If you don’t measure it, you can’t manage it, as the saying goes.
Click to expand...

Try the test. Dunning-Kruger internet testimonials are worth what you paid for them.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

R
  • Locked
Glock Sub Compacts owners.... G26, G27, and G33, Sound off
2
Replies
27
Views
2K
Rokman
R
wally
  • Locked
Hellcat vs. older "sub-compact" 9mm Pistols
Replies
14
Views
1K
Ivy Mike
Ivy Mike
A
  • Locked
XD M2 or M&P Sub compact/Fullsize.
Replies
16
Views
692
Styx
Styx
Redcoat3340
  • Locked
Who owns "pairs" of pistols: big and small, short and tall??
2 3 4
Replies
85
Views
4K
CajunBass
CajunBass
D
  • Locked
Re: Compacts and Subcompacts, Training With
Replies
4
Views
387
dovedescending
D
Back
Top