Who Here Doesn't Know Jack About Guns?

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BerettaNut92

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I have no idea:
1. What the difference is between cast and forged, and which is better
2. Why Series 80 is bad (other than JMB and God didn't put it on the original 1911)
3. Why Garands have gas problems when they are chopped down. (too much cabbage?)
4. Which way a revolver turns
5. How .357 Sig mimics .357 Magnum ballistics even if it's that much smaller
6. What delayed blowback retarded roller locking action closed bolt is that makes HKs so great
7. Why pre-agreement S&W triggers are better
8. What Berdan primed means
9. What headspacing is
10. anything about ballistics other than .223 = cheap = good.

Does anyone else get lost when gun topics get deeper than frontsight, press, followthrough and carbon fiber? :confused: You know how people's VCRs blink 12:00 because they don't know jack about electonics? Does anyone else feel the same way about guns? :(

(Good thing I'm not a mechanical engineer)
 
is it bad that i could only answer one of those questions?

and the reason i can answer it because i read a thread about it here?
 
I can sort of answer a few of those. A smith and Wesson revolver cylinder rotates counterclockwise. I suspect the .357sig mimics .357 magnum because (though it's smaller) the casing is a .40 necked down. Rather than a straight wall .357 case. Short and squat rather than long and thin. Same amount of oomph in a shorter but fatter package. Just a theory.

As for forged versed cast. I can answer it in sword terminology. A forged blade is pounded and shaped from raw metal thus it is all one strong piece. If firearms are anything like their early-history brethren -- the sword -- then forged is stronger, of better quality, and craftsmanship and therefore more desirable.

Headspacing -- I believe it's a measure of tolerance in a rifle chamber. While I cannot define it any more specifically than that, I think it can have some bearing on accuracy. HEY -- I'm trying here.

Honestly -- I enjoy shooting and I enjoy firearms as works of craftmanship. I know how to set my VCR and I know how to shoot, clear a jam and field strip any of my guns. Other than that -- I really don't care what happened to Smith and Wesson's triggers after "the agreement" because I have owned the same revolver for close to 10 years and I'm very very happy with it. As for the gas problems in Garands. Not a clue. Though I hear the M1 Garand did have a lot of Failures to feed when GI's used Asian cabbage during WWII. Okay -- rant over.

:D
 
Hmmmm… I don’t know if your question was titled correctly, “Who Here Doesn’t Know Jack About Guns?â€

It sounds like you want to know who here knows the mechanics. For some people, the only thing “Jack†needs to know is what ammo to buy and how to use it in self-defense. Others may just like turning clay pigeons into fragments. Let’s not forget about those that use their guns for food.

I know the difference between cast (molten metal poured into a form) and forged (metal formed from hammering and heating/reheating in a forge. I can’t tell you which method is superior in the making of firearms. I would have to guess cast overall is though. Each and every forged item is unique. In casting, you can set tolerances.

While I don’t have a vast knowledge of revolvers, the ones I’ve seen rotate counterclockwise. I’m assuming that’s because most people are right-handed.

At any rate, I’m guessing that everyone here knows enough “Jac†to get them through the day.
 
They're all relatively simple questions.

I'll address two.

Primers;

Berdan priming, which is mostly used in Europe, was invented by an American. Berdan primers have the anvil as a part of the cartridge casing, with 2 (or 3) flash holes surrounding it. It is very difficult to reload a berdan primed case although it can be done. It is because of that difficulty that CCI Blazer ammo is berdan primed. The aluminum cases would get brittle and could fail if you resized them.
BTW Boxer Primers, which were invented by a European and most commonly used in America, have the anvil in the primer and a single flash hole in the case.

Headspace;

Headspace by definition is the volume above a liquid or solid in a closed container. The closed container in our instance is the chamber of a firearm.
The cartridge must fit the chamber for a proper gas seal for both safety and accuracy.

Straight walled revolver cases headspace on the rim. The rim is what insures that the cartridge seats properly in the chamber. In a straight walled rimmed cartridge such as the .357 magnum you can safely use a shorter cartridge such as .38 Special, .38 Long Colt and .38 Short Colt.

A straight walled rimless cartridge such as .45acp headspaces on the mouth. If you crimp this type of case too much it can slip too deep in the chamber which can lead to misfires. Which is why it's not prudent to fire .380 in a 9mm or .40S&W in a 10mm.

A bottlenecked cartridge headspaces on the shoulder. The shouler determines how deep in the chamber it will go. A .308 will go way too deep in a 30-06 chamber even though they have the same head size.

Now to further confuse things you have semi rimmed cartridges such as .38acp/super and .32acp/7.65mm.
The .38 Super was designed to headspace on the rim, however, the small rim and the loose tolerances of the Colt barrels contributed to poor accuracy as each cartridge didn't always seat the same as the next one.
The newer Colt barrels headspace on the mouth and are much more accurate.
The .32acp has a relatively larger rim and some pistols are chambered to headspace on the rim while others headspace on the mouth.

Belted magnum cartridges headspace on the belt even though most have a shoulder.

Rimmed bottleneck cartridges such as the .22 Hornet and .303 British headspace on the rim and not the shoulder.

Are y'all thoroughly confused yet? :what:


Headspace is not to be confused with freebore or leade.
And it has nothing to do with tilt steering. :evil:
 
Ya'know Skunk... I could answer all these questions... but it's Saturday night... time for SNL's Weekend Update.

Oh and riddle me this; what this is the difference between-

internal ballistics
external ballistics
and terminal ballistics...?

And my re-qual was a piece of cake except for 30 rounds of 158grn. +P LSWCHP out of a S&W 637 Airweight gave me one hell of a blister.
 
Lemme take a couple of tries here:

5. How .357 Sig mimics .357 Magnum ballistics even if it's that much smaller

Well it does and it doesn't.

First issue: the 38Spl is way bigger than it needs to be because it's the last of the black powder cartridges developed during the late 19th century. Black powder being less potent by volume, you needed more case capacity. We have other such "oversize BP leftovers" running around, such as the 45LC and 45-70.

Why does this matter? Because the 357Mag was deliberately stretched from the 38Spl, for safety reasons (inability to chamber 357s in older 38s).

So don't assume the 357Mag really needs all of it's case capacity.

Second: the 357Sig can almost match the 357Mag as long as we're talking about 125grain slugs. The day a 6" barrel 357Sig can throw a 200grain hardcast slug @ 1,250fps is the day I'll eat my motorcycle helmet...
'specially if it can feed a whole magazine's worth. Also, take a STRONG 357Mag gun (GP100, Blackhawk, N-Frame S&W) and you can spit a 125 faster than 1,500fps, above the Sig's range.

1. What the difference is between cast and forged, and which is better

Cast is when you pour metal into a mold while hot, forged is when you pound the hell out of it directly into shape while it's red/orange hot, but not "runny".

Traditionally, forged is better. BUT, some modern processes finely powder the metal and mix it that way prior to heating. These "cruciable particle metal" processes have produced some hellatious knife blade steels of late (CPM440v, CPM420V, others) and Ruger has been doing something similar. Ruger's process seems to result in metal that's tough "all the way through" versus a surface hardening treatment. One interesting result: when you study Ruger revolvers that have been blown up via stupid handloading, you tend to find the topstrap bent but intact. Shrapnel tends to be limited to "sideways". On similar sized S&Ws (forged) suffering the same fate, the topstrap will snap and throw more scrap metal out, sometimes rearward.

Forged still tends to result in less metal for the strength needed. Many of the "overweight" and "bulky" complaints about Rugers can be traced to their cast processes...but they're doing a GOOD cast process and it's strength is unquestioned.

10. anything about ballistics other than .223 = cheap = good.

This, I won't answer. But some of the best short texts on the subject are here:

http://www.sixgunner.com/linebaugh/

Every piece of text there is of value. Granted, it's most directly applicable to big-bore revolver cartridges but the principles are universal. Read that, or go watch Happy Tree Friends cartoons if you can't handle it :neener:.
 
Oh, me! Me! I don't know jack about guns! I'm the brain-dead monkey who fully disassembled and re-assembled his first rifle (a Mosin Nagant M39) and didn't know what the cocking piece was. That's right, I properly reassembled it with a "this goes here, that fits in there like that" technique with no leftover parts, but didn't even learn what anything was called or what each piece did. I had the instructions but like a true man I didn't read them; I just looked at the pictures and the exploded diagram :rolleyes: .
 
Why Series 80 is bad (other than JMB and God didn't put it on the original 1911)
Main reason I can think of is that it has the firing pin disconnect, which is not part of the original design. Makes it "drop safe", but also makes it harder to replace the firing pin.

Which way a revolver turns
They rotate clockwise or counterclockwise, as you're looking from the back. There are two easy ways to tell which way. Easiest is to look at the looking notches on the outside rear of the cylinder that have the little arrowhead-like cuts to let the locking latch slip up into the notch. The "arrowheads" point in the direction the cylinder rotates. The other way is to look inside the frame at the back, just below the firing pin hole. You'll see a little vertical rectangular opening (the "window") either to the left or right. The pawl, or hand, comes up through the window and engages the ratchet teeth on the back of the ejector star (DA) or cylinder (SA) and pushes the cylinder "up and over". So if the window is on the right side (looking from the back), as on a S&W, it will push it up and over to the left, or counterclockwise. It's on the other side on a Colt or Dan Wesson, so rotates clockwise.

Why pre-agreement S&W triggers are better
They do not heat treat the metal the same now and it doesn't go very deep, so a smith cannot remove too much metal doing a trigger job without getting into the soft stuff, which will wear very quickly.

What headspacing is
What BluesBear has said is true, but I think we need to get a little more basic. If you take a revolver and make the firing pin come through the bolt face you will see that it does not extend very far out of the firing pin hole. The cartridge has to be positioned so that the primer is close enough to the firing pin hole for the pin to sufficiently dent the primer to get ignition. The primer is in the "head" of the cartridge case. So "headspacing" is basically referring to the method used in a given firearm cartridge to properly space the head of the case from the firing pin hole (has to allow movement, but also has to end up supported by the bolt face). Revolvers headspace on the rim, as has been said, while rimless cases headspace on the case length. That's why you can fire cartridges of differing lengths in a revolver (e.g., .38 Spl and .357 Mag, or .44 Russian, Special, and Mag), but you cannot do that in a semi-auto (e.g., 9x17mm, 9x18mm, 9x19mm) because either the firing pin won't reach, or the case head will not be supported by the bolt face.
 
6. What delayed blowback retarded roller locking action closed bolt is that makes HKs so great

HUH? sounds like a stealth chopper question---I felt the wind, so I know something passed through my ears... but I'll be damned if I slowed it down on the way out...

7. Why pre-agreement S&W triggers are better

What pre-agreement?
 
Okay, I'll take a stab at a few of these:

1. What the difference is between cast and forged, and which is better

Typically, forged is better, but this is a matter of the care taken in manufacturing processes. And, there are several different types of casting which plays a factor here as well.

In traditional casting, molten metal is poured into a mold, filling the shape of the mold cavity. When the metal cools and solidifies, the casting is removed from the mold, and usually goes on for some sort of finishing operations (i.e. heat treating, removing excess material, drill and tap...). Molds in this case can be one-shot items (sand or ceramic) or permanent (die-cast, like a bullet die, only for larger parts).

It is possible to create high strength, high quality parts with casting, but it is fairly difficult. When metal is poured into the mold, and foreign particles in the pour or on the mold surface will become imbedded in the casting (inclusions). Then, there is also the problem of porosity. This is when gas is trapped in the casting, either being drawn in during the pour , or if gassing is used to force out other impurities. Another problem could be shrink, where the metal cools, pulling at thicker parts of the casting, which causes voids and cracks. In the case of any of these three problems, inclusions, porostiy, or voids (also refered to as shrink porosity), when the casting is put under stress (in this case, the gun is fired) stresses are magnified at these faults, which causes fault propogation, which causes the part to fail.

Think of a bridge collapse; the bridge is very strong, but if a cable snaps, the nearest cables suddenly have to carry more load. If they fail, the next cables carry even more, and the failure moves right down the line until the bridge collapses. The same thing happens when a metal part breaks. Stress is applied to the object. The stress is magnified at the edges of a void, crack, inclusion, or bubble. The stress is to much for the surrounding material, which results in the defect expanding. This causes even more stress at the edges, which causes the defect to expand, which causes even more stress at the edges, which causes the defect to expand, which causes even more stress at the edges, which causes the defect to expand, which -BAM- the part fails.

Forged parts are typically stronger because they often start with a casting, then physically force the defects up to the surface, where they will usually be removed during finishing (machining). When the part is heating, and repeatedly struck with the hammer, it causes the internal material to shift back and forth, and the atoms settle into better alignment. Impurities are forced out, voids and cracks are mashed closed, etc...

Both cast and forged parts are often heat treated, which alters the grain size (crystal size) of the material, which affects its physical properties as well.

3. Why Garands have gas problems when they are chopped down. (too much cabbage?)

Garands are tuned to operate at a specific barrel length. When the round is discharged, the gas expands at a certain rate, accelerating the bullet down the barrel. Towards the business end of the Garands barrel, there is a port which bleeds off some of this expanding gas to operate the action. This gas must be at a certain pressure, and that pressure must be exerted upon a piston for a specific amount of time, therwise the action will not cycle properly. If the barrel is cut down, it screws up this system. It could probably be fixed with different port design, but its really a question of tuning. Once something works nicely, i.e. everything is tuned up, don't screw with it.

This is like tuned pipes for automobiles. Well matched and tuned exhaust pipes will help get more power out of an engine. Poorly tuned pipes are a detrement.
 
Lump me in the group who don't know jack.

Only owned guns for a year and grew up in a home without guns.

Gotten pretty good at field-stripping a Ruger P97, but I must admit that even with instructions I couldn't get the Wingmaster back together and had to go to the gun shop for help.

I'm the brain-dead monkey who fully disassembled and re-assembled his first rifle (a Mosin Nagant M39)

That's encouraging as I haven't yet found the guts to break down my new Mosin.

I guess I'm still learning the basics, all the gunsmithing and reloading stuff sounds intimidating to me!
 
You aren't alone Skunk. I would have said I knew the answer to 7 of your 10, but I've learned a couple of things reading others postings in this thread. One of the things I like about this board - I can ask a basic question without being made to feel foolish.
 
ME! Relatively speaking anyway. I know enough to maintain my guns.

Agree with BryanP. The High Road threads often make me realize I how little I actually know. On the other hand I know I can ask just about anything and get answers without being made to feel stupid, most of the time :), sometimes it's unavoidable.
 
I failed, except for the Army 30 some years ago I have not been aroung guns. And whats worse than not knowing much about guns I still can't hit the barn or anything else with my 870. Except for supporting the 2nd Amendment I don't know why I'm allowed on this board. :)
 
I think almost all those topics have been mentioned somewhere, sometime, either here or TFL, or I would have had no clue about the answers either. But I do have a clue (surprise!)

Maybe you should start reading more in all the different areas on the forum Skunky... and keep your posts under 7000! I know when I first joined TFL, I read almost every single post that had any bit of information I could absorb.

When I read your questions, I frightened myself by how much random data is in my noggin...
 
Who Here Doesn't Know Jack About Guns?



cover_186x274.jpg
 
The .357Sig is suppose to mimick the performace of a 357mag @ 125grains.. The "shoulders" (necking down) make it a more efficient round. Think of it like this, it's a little squid.. Big volume pushing out a smaller hole... also, case efficiency of % of total powdered burned, and how consistantly it's burned.

The added drop safety means when you move the trigger, it moves 2 items instead of 1, same reason the old CZ's have better triggers also. The drop safety gives the trigger some "creep".

The 308 I think was the first round designed with computer assistance, so it mimicks closely the ballistics of a 30-06 in a smaller case. .223's are designed even later than that, and so any round designed after the 308 (should) have gained the benefit of computer assistance in design.

Forged is better, because the process strengthens the metal, as well as evens out the stress points in the metal, for a more consistant stridation..

as far as the HK system.. that's going to take diagrams (of which I have, hehehe, had HK Germany send me some so I can study it)

Headspacing is complicated.. you are talking about barrels or bullets?

A gas system has to be mated with the size of the bullet, the cycling time, and barrel length. So if you chop a Garand down, you ruin the timing..
 
Ah, Skunkhopper, the honor is not in the answer, but in asking the question. Congratulations.
While most of the posts take on the answers, I won't. I just wanted to acknowledge your honesty.For guns, like most things, the best analogy for users to understand is: "Do you want to know what time it is, or how the watch is built?"
The answers to your questions are great and extremely informative for all (a man is never too old of too smart to listen and learn something.)
Now, what is the sound of one hand clapping?:rolleyes:
 
Grey54956, thanks for that detailed answer about forged vs. cast. It was very enlightening. Not to hijack the thread, but are 'forged vs. cast' properties kind of the same relationship between MIM and non-MIM parts?
 
Not me. If you want to talk about any of the guns I own myself then you're okay but start on that other stuff and I get that "vcr 12:00 blink" stare thing going too.
 
Garand problems

There is that very small window of operation between the time the bullet passes the gas port and exits the muzzle. You have to have just the right amount of pressure to bleed off for reliable operation.

The problem with the Garand gas system is that although you can tune the gas port to get the proper bleed for any loading, when you shorten the barrel the pressure on the operating rod occurs sooner.

So even though the M-14 has a similar action it was designed with the gas port closer to the breech. It's timing was centered around this distance.

Most of the shortened M1-a rifles have the gas post located the same distance from the breech as the full length rifles. This way all you have to do, for reliable operation, is adjust the amount of gas being bled into the system, as the timing of the bleed will still be the same.
 
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