Who makes the best 9mm ever?
- Thread starter Rival
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phantom309
Member
You don't hear about them much but the Sig 220 9mm is a superb pistol as well.
Skytrooper
Member
SIG P-226 for a high-capacity 9mm.
HK P7M8 for a single stack 9mm.
HK P7M8 for a single stack 9mm.
axeman_g
Member
mmmm ....
It seems that the HIPOWER crowd is a large yet quiet group. 47 votes for the JB classic upgrade and only a few mentions of why it is superior.
I quess you dont have to crow when you fly with eagles.
It seems that the HIPOWER crowd is a large yet quiet group. 47 votes for the JB classic upgrade and only a few mentions of why it is superior.
I quess you dont have to crow when you fly with eagles.
OP
OP
Rival
Member
I am with HIPOWER crowd. Can't beat classic single action. IMHO the only 9mm that can rival HIPOWER is Sig P-210, and everything is laid out very nicely over here:
http://hipowersandhandguns.com/Sig9mm.htm
I don't have anything against P-210, and I would like to have one (without breaking by bank), but I would take BHP over P-210 any day if I had to actually use 9mm for some work... For shooting range P-210 is a superior pistol.
hi-power, aka, p-35, aka, grand pussance. I find the ergnomics of the hi-power magical. Mine is utterly reliable. I can hit with it very well. I believe in JMB's single-action fire control system, and JC's manual of arms for same. I think the only defensive automatic I'd ever buy in the future, other than a single-action, would be an H&K P7M8. I handled one two days ago and I may go and buy it. For me it is a CZ SA, or a Hi-power, or a 1911 in 45 or 9mm. No other defensive automatics interest me hence forth. In the past I dallied with quite a few, but no more.
BevrFevr
Member
cz's are czuperior!
While not perfect, and I have had some failures, I know when I grab it I can put em where I want em. I have the unfortunate ability to make any auto not work flawlessly.
I am most familiar with this of all the autos I own(ed). I would easily buy others. But I would also buy Smith, XD, Glock, HP, Walther, etc.
I'm going shooting tomorrow!
-t
While not perfect, and I have had some failures, I know when I grab it I can put em where I want em. I have the unfortunate ability to make any auto not work flawlessly.
I am most familiar with this of all the autos I own(ed). I would easily buy others. But I would also buy Smith, XD, Glock, HP, Walther, etc.
I'm going shooting tomorrow!
-t
RegBarc
Member
Walther P99. Glocks aren't poorly made, they're just poorly made for my hands.
Serpico
Member
When you factor in that Montgomery Wards floor model couch, exposed wall board. and Walmart wardrobe, the guns are the least of their problems...
Oh...almost forgot....the Browning Hi-Power.....
Oh...almost forgot....the Browning Hi-Power.....
denfoote
Member
The best is the Walther P5!!!
Mastrogiacomo
Member
Beretta 92FS -- I have four.
CZ P-01 The Legend Lives
There is always something newer and better when it comes to pistol technology, but I think things will stay idle for awhile until a manufacturer can come up with something like or better than this 9mm.
A few years ago, the Czech National Police wanted a new handgun to meet their needs. They wanted a design offering a high-level of comfort and ergonomics, based on the CZ 75 operating system. Called a “Generation 3†pistol, the P-01 is the final result of that journey down the road of new ideas. It fulfills the need for a lightweight, compact pistol having the same durability and accuracy of a full-sized, full-weight pistol. The National Police had a tough list of requirements — so tough, many companies (Glock, Browning, Sig, Beretta, H&K, Walther) simply bowed-out of the bid process, but CZ staked a claim to the prize — and won it.
The P-01 was accepted after almost three years of testing and development. What CZ did to win the bid is something that few (how about zero?) designs have ever had to go through before greeting the buying public. For a military gun, sure, but in this case, the general public gets the same gun, same design and same specs as the police and military.
For instance, according to the information supplied by CZ, the gun had to withstand 4,000 dry-firings, 3,000 de-cockings, operator-level disassembly and re-assembly 1,350 times, complete disassembly (all the way down to pins and springs) 150 times, 100-percent parts interchangeability, a 1.5 meter drop test (54 times) on concrete, three meter drop test, firing after being frozen at –36 F for 24 hours, firing after being submerged in mud, sand and combinations — and after having been stripped of all oil. The service life must exceed 15,000 rounds of +P 9mm ammo and indeed, testing revealed the P-01 has exceeded 30,000 rounds with ball 9mm.
The reliability requirement protocol was particularly astounding. Set at 98.8 percent (.2 percent) failure rate, this was tough-enough for any gun. This equals 20 stoppages per 10,000 rounds, or 500 “mean rounds between failures†(MRBF). During testing, the average number of stoppages was only seven per 15,000 rounds, or .05 percent failure rate. This translates to a MRBF rate of 2,142 rounds. That happens to be about five times the minimum acceptable rate for the U.S. Army, which is set at 495 rounds for 9mm pistols with 115 gr. ball ammo. The bottom line here is the fact this appears to be a rugged, highly reliable design, despite its small size and alloy frame. With this kind of testing history — and our own shooting experiences with the P-01 — we think it should be a breeze for it to hold-up to anything a civilian shooter could dish at it.
Surprisingly, I found myself using the term elegant when I thought of the P-01. The curves and angles seem to blend in an appealingly form-fitting manner. Think of a Frank Lloyd Wright chair that looks “just right.†The authoritative black finish is a matte polycoat, applied over a phosphate base. While it may wear on the edges eventually, I’d imagine it’s tough-enough for mere mortals, considering the abuse it was subjected to during the rigorous government testing.
The controls are in the normal places, with the mag release in the classic 1911 position. CZ has extended the slide-release somewhat, and what was the safety on the CZ 75, is now the de-cocker on the P-01. Unlike the original, the P-01 cannot be carried “cocked and locked†and functions as a conventional double/single action auto. There’s a lanyard loop (don’t laugh, they make perfect sense, especially for a hard-working gun) and the grip frame is grooved on the rear and front straps to enhance your grip. These vertical grooves “flow†into your fingers and palm and, I believe, function better than checkering in many respects. The grips are simple, checkered rubber. Simple is good on a fighting pistol, remember?
There’s a “beavertail†extension long enough to guard that tender web of your hand, and the sights are a bold, three-dot type that can be had with tritium, if you lean in that direction. The trigger is gently curved and smooth, as all good double action triggers should be, and the front of the trigger guard is squared slightly and grooved. That’s the only big thing I’d change on the P-01. In today’s world, that grip mode is becoming rapidly obsolete.
A light rail is part of the package and fits most of the standard model weapon lights. Since the light can be easily removed from the pistol, an officer could use a standard duty holster and attach the light as the situation dictates. No need for dinner-plate sized duty holsters to hold a gun and light combo, unless you want or need to.
The fashionable serrations on the forward portion of the slide are of little use, due to the construction of the slide, which runs inside of the frame (like the P-210). This design keeps things tidy, however, serving to lower the slide in the hand, which in turn, softens the perception of recoil. It also helps to smooth-out function, placing the recoil more directly in line with the shooting arm, allowing a solid platform for the pistol to operate against. Plus, it looks cool — which is worth something, we imagine.
A forged, aircraft aluminum alloy frame, hammer-forged barrel, firing pin block and ease of disassembly add to the features. The magazines are tough, of 13-round capacity and held up to our abuse on a gravel range. We believe the longer mags from the CZ 75 series guns will fit the new P-01, but didn’t have any on-hand to try. And, at around $575, it’s a hell of a price for a lot of “little†gun.
Having some experience with the CZ 75 series and Springfield’s P-9, we had an inkling of what to expect on the range. Or, at least, we were hoping. And, at the risk of being accused of liking the P-01 too much, it ran like an Eastern European top, feeding a wide-range of ammo very reliably. This may have been, in no small part, due to the integral feed ramp on the barrel and the robust recoil spring. Both of which assured snappy delivery of the next round from the mag. Recoil was soft and manageable, and it was obvious the excellent grips, grip profile and low position of the slide in the frame were to blame. In short, we liked this gun lots. For lack of a better term, it felt like a “real†gun, unlike some of the plastic models out there.
Alas, all was not whipped cream and sugar. The double action pull was very long — not a real crime — but it was fairly gritty. While this is common on military-style autos, most “Joe-shooterâ€-types will hate it and complain. Having said all that, there’s no doubt a good pistolsmith would be able to slick-up this obviously high-quality system. If we consumers keep asking for low prices, then something has to suffer and what suffers is usually how much hand-work a maker can devote to assembly. The single action was also on the long side and gritty. Let-off was unexpected, but not due to a crisp break. It was a sort of “slide along until it went off†kind of a thing, and a good pistolsmith would fix this in a jiffy too.
The military-mode trigger pull made accuracy testing a bit harder than we would have liked, but 3.5" groups at 25 yards were possible, with some a bit bigger. There’s nothing wrong with that for a duty pistol and actually, we felt quite smug about it all from this smallish gun. We also clanged the 50-yard gong enough off-hand to get bored with that game. There were two failures to feed when we first started, with some truncated 9mm ball someone scrounged-up. But, the P-01 overcame this minor embarrassment and rose to the occasion, perking along nicely with everything else, including the rest of that funny ball ammo. With any brand-new gun (especially autos), it’s common to work-out a few bugs until they get broken-in and settle down. You simply have to test them before you carry them, regardless of the maker or the perceived quality involved — even $5,000 custom 1911s. Especially $5,000 custom 1911s.
We found ourselves smiling around the P-01 often. People would see it on my desk, pick it up with a neutral face, flick the levers, push the buttons, cycle the slide, aim at an imaginary miscreant or two, and then look back at me — and grin. “This is a cool little gun†and “Lots lighter than I imagined†were typical of the things said. Perhaps one fellow summed up our feelings best when he said, after grinning: “Can I uy it when you’re done?†We told him he’d have to arm wrestle us for it.
Roy Huntington
There is always something newer and better when it comes to pistol technology, but I think things will stay idle for awhile until a manufacturer can come up with something like or better than this 9mm.
A few years ago, the Czech National Police wanted a new handgun to meet their needs. They wanted a design offering a high-level of comfort and ergonomics, based on the CZ 75 operating system. Called a “Generation 3†pistol, the P-01 is the final result of that journey down the road of new ideas. It fulfills the need for a lightweight, compact pistol having the same durability and accuracy of a full-sized, full-weight pistol. The National Police had a tough list of requirements — so tough, many companies (Glock, Browning, Sig, Beretta, H&K, Walther) simply bowed-out of the bid process, but CZ staked a claim to the prize — and won it.
The P-01 was accepted after almost three years of testing and development. What CZ did to win the bid is something that few (how about zero?) designs have ever had to go through before greeting the buying public. For a military gun, sure, but in this case, the general public gets the same gun, same design and same specs as the police and military.
For instance, according to the information supplied by CZ, the gun had to withstand 4,000 dry-firings, 3,000 de-cockings, operator-level disassembly and re-assembly 1,350 times, complete disassembly (all the way down to pins and springs) 150 times, 100-percent parts interchangeability, a 1.5 meter drop test (54 times) on concrete, three meter drop test, firing after being frozen at –36 F for 24 hours, firing after being submerged in mud, sand and combinations — and after having been stripped of all oil. The service life must exceed 15,000 rounds of +P 9mm ammo and indeed, testing revealed the P-01 has exceeded 30,000 rounds with ball 9mm.
The reliability requirement protocol was particularly astounding. Set at 98.8 percent (.2 percent) failure rate, this was tough-enough for any gun. This equals 20 stoppages per 10,000 rounds, or 500 “mean rounds between failures†(MRBF). During testing, the average number of stoppages was only seven per 15,000 rounds, or .05 percent failure rate. This translates to a MRBF rate of 2,142 rounds. That happens to be about five times the minimum acceptable rate for the U.S. Army, which is set at 495 rounds for 9mm pistols with 115 gr. ball ammo. The bottom line here is the fact this appears to be a rugged, highly reliable design, despite its small size and alloy frame. With this kind of testing history — and our own shooting experiences with the P-01 — we think it should be a breeze for it to hold-up to anything a civilian shooter could dish at it.
Surprisingly, I found myself using the term elegant when I thought of the P-01. The curves and angles seem to blend in an appealingly form-fitting manner. Think of a Frank Lloyd Wright chair that looks “just right.†The authoritative black finish is a matte polycoat, applied over a phosphate base. While it may wear on the edges eventually, I’d imagine it’s tough-enough for mere mortals, considering the abuse it was subjected to during the rigorous government testing.
The controls are in the normal places, with the mag release in the classic 1911 position. CZ has extended the slide-release somewhat, and what was the safety on the CZ 75, is now the de-cocker on the P-01. Unlike the original, the P-01 cannot be carried “cocked and locked†and functions as a conventional double/single action auto. There’s a lanyard loop (don’t laugh, they make perfect sense, especially for a hard-working gun) and the grip frame is grooved on the rear and front straps to enhance your grip. These vertical grooves “flow†into your fingers and palm and, I believe, function better than checkering in many respects. The grips are simple, checkered rubber. Simple is good on a fighting pistol, remember?
There’s a “beavertail†extension long enough to guard that tender web of your hand, and the sights are a bold, three-dot type that can be had with tritium, if you lean in that direction. The trigger is gently curved and smooth, as all good double action triggers should be, and the front of the trigger guard is squared slightly and grooved. That’s the only big thing I’d change on the P-01. In today’s world, that grip mode is becoming rapidly obsolete.
A light rail is part of the package and fits most of the standard model weapon lights. Since the light can be easily removed from the pistol, an officer could use a standard duty holster and attach the light as the situation dictates. No need for dinner-plate sized duty holsters to hold a gun and light combo, unless you want or need to.
The fashionable serrations on the forward portion of the slide are of little use, due to the construction of the slide, which runs inside of the frame (like the P-210). This design keeps things tidy, however, serving to lower the slide in the hand, which in turn, softens the perception of recoil. It also helps to smooth-out function, placing the recoil more directly in line with the shooting arm, allowing a solid platform for the pistol to operate against. Plus, it looks cool — which is worth something, we imagine.
A forged, aircraft aluminum alloy frame, hammer-forged barrel, firing pin block and ease of disassembly add to the features. The magazines are tough, of 13-round capacity and held up to our abuse on a gravel range. We believe the longer mags from the CZ 75 series guns will fit the new P-01, but didn’t have any on-hand to try. And, at around $575, it’s a hell of a price for a lot of “little†gun.
Having some experience with the CZ 75 series and Springfield’s P-9, we had an inkling of what to expect on the range. Or, at least, we were hoping. And, at the risk of being accused of liking the P-01 too much, it ran like an Eastern European top, feeding a wide-range of ammo very reliably. This may have been, in no small part, due to the integral feed ramp on the barrel and the robust recoil spring. Both of which assured snappy delivery of the next round from the mag. Recoil was soft and manageable, and it was obvious the excellent grips, grip profile and low position of the slide in the frame were to blame. In short, we liked this gun lots. For lack of a better term, it felt like a “real†gun, unlike some of the plastic models out there.
Alas, all was not whipped cream and sugar. The double action pull was very long — not a real crime — but it was fairly gritty. While this is common on military-style autos, most “Joe-shooterâ€-types will hate it and complain. Having said all that, there’s no doubt a good pistolsmith would be able to slick-up this obviously high-quality system. If we consumers keep asking for low prices, then something has to suffer and what suffers is usually how much hand-work a maker can devote to assembly. The single action was also on the long side and gritty. Let-off was unexpected, but not due to a crisp break. It was a sort of “slide along until it went off†kind of a thing, and a good pistolsmith would fix this in a jiffy too.
The military-mode trigger pull made accuracy testing a bit harder than we would have liked, but 3.5" groups at 25 yards were possible, with some a bit bigger. There’s nothing wrong with that for a duty pistol and actually, we felt quite smug about it all from this smallish gun. We also clanged the 50-yard gong enough off-hand to get bored with that game. There were two failures to feed when we first started, with some truncated 9mm ball someone scrounged-up. But, the P-01 overcame this minor embarrassment and rose to the occasion, perking along nicely with everything else, including the rest of that funny ball ammo. With any brand-new gun (especially autos), it’s common to work-out a few bugs until they get broken-in and settle down. You simply have to test them before you carry them, regardless of the maker or the perceived quality involved — even $5,000 custom 1911s. Especially $5,000 custom 1911s.
We found ourselves smiling around the P-01 often. People would see it on my desk, pick it up with a neutral face, flick the levers, push the buttons, cycle the slide, aim at an imaginary miscreant or two, and then look back at me — and grin. “This is a cool little gun†and “Lots lighter than I imagined†were typical of the things said. Perhaps one fellow summed up our feelings best when he said, after grinning: “Can I uy it when you’re done?†We told him he’d have to arm wrestle us for it.
Roy Huntington
CZF
Member
- Joined
- Jan 6, 2003
- Messages
- 2,034
CZ's 9mms, followed by the Glock, Cee-Zeds are much stronger than a BHP
and they can take alot of abuse. Unlike a Glock or SIG. A CZ won't break
small springs. The weak-link in the CZ design is the slide stop. Some
people (like myself) never have any problems.
The CZ is priced right and has a growing number of fans in America.
15-shot mags are not hard to find or expensive.
www.cz-usa.com
and they can take alot of abuse. Unlike a Glock or SIG. A CZ won't break
small springs. The weak-link in the CZ design is the slide stop. Some
people (like myself) never have any problems.
The CZ is priced right and has a growing number of fans in America.
15-shot mags are not hard to find or expensive.
www.cz-usa.com
OP
OP
Rival
Member
Can you back this statement up? I agree that CZs are stronger than original Hi Power, but newer MkIII come with the same frame for both .40S&W and 9mm. New BHPs also come with stronger slide that has redesigned ejection port, new slides can take more abuse. New Browning Hi Power MkIII can take a lot of beating. The new BHP MkIII came out in 1988, so it is a pretty darn new gun.
Craig M. Arnold
Member
Best 9MM Pistol
CZ, of course! Many great 9MM models to choose from, 75B, 75BD, 85 Combat, P01 and PCR.
CZ, of course! Many great 9MM models to choose from, 75B, 75BD, 85 Combat, P01 and PCR.
Poohgyrr
Member
HAH, lots of good ones here, or not here as well.
I like the P7M8 quite a bit, but vote for the Hi Power in full size and 3913 in compact.
I like the P7M8 quite a bit, but vote for the Hi Power in full size and 3913 in compact.
Tango Sierra
Member
CZ. No wait... SIG. No... Springfield XD. Wait.... H&K. I guess it's the most recent one I've shot that I like the best. Since I can't make up my mind because I like them all, I guess I can't vote.
Brian Williams
Moderator Emeritus
S&W
The J Frame 940 centennial with moonclips.....
Always ready, no mags, no safeties except the one between my ears.
The J Frame 940 centennial with moonclips.....
Always ready, no mags, no safeties except the one between my ears.
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