Who uses FMJs for Carry Ammo?

[9mmepiphany]

I'm not saying bullets can't exit, but I do wonder exactly how much power they have after going completely through a person.

ask yourself a question. would you consider another person, cover or concealment?

 

[ChristopherG]

The military shoots FMJs because of the differing conventions and goals of warfare. The self-defense shooter has goals and rules that much more closely mimic those of a Law Enforcement agency.

Law Enforcement agencies spend time and money researching which ammunition is effective and mitigates risks like over (or under) penetration; and they use modern hollowpoints.

 

[christcorp]

Actually, there's a catch-22 to both sides. In some respect, OVER PENETRATION (Coming out the back of the person you shot) can be a very good thing. The whole (one shot stop) is a CROCK OF Shiite. You need to hit the nervous system or create rapid drop in blood pressure. If the bullet goes through the person, you actually have 2 holes which mean quicker blood loss and quicker drop in blood pressure. However; as mentioned; you are responsible for whatever is in the path of that bullet.

Hollow points that don't over penetrate normally expand; cause a larger wound cavity; therefor a better chance of hitting a vital organ or the central nervous system; and more internal bleeding. Mind you; a properly placed shot TRUMPS ALL OF THESE DEBATES. I.e A proper shot with a 22LR FMJ lead, will instantly kill the attacker.

We're talking about the Not-Perfect shot. In this case, you can have more blood loss and quicker decrease in blood pressure by using the FMJ, with deeper penetration and possibly 2 holes to lose blood from; or you can have a larger wound cavity and a better chance of hitting secondary internal points of incapacitation and more internal blood loss by using the Hollow Point.

Me personally; I use the Hollow Point in the 9mm Makarove or above; and I use a FMJ in 380acp and below. Matter of fact; for the 32acp/380acp I will use Buffalo Bore that simply kicks butt for a FMJ. I use 230 grain golden sabers for the 45acp; 158 grain Hydra-shok for the 357 magnum; and Hornady 95 hp for the 9mm Makarov.

 

[JTQ]

I don't know whether FMJ or HP is a better choice for personal defense, but my guess is that within the same caliber and bullet weight they are probably pretty close. The difference between handgun rounds is actually pretty small when compared to a rifle or shot gun.

There are lots of good points in this thread already.

The military is not a good example. I spent 21 years in the military, and FMJ aren't being used because they are "BETTER". They use FMJ for totally different reasons.

1) Political Correctness. HP "Supposed" do more damage and FMJ are more "Humane" in war.

Good point.

However, the reason most of us use hollow points is probably because law enforcement uses them. The "Law Enforcement Political Correctness" corollary to the military one is whether Law Enforcement uses hollow points because they work better or because there is less chance of "shoot through" or collateral damage or to actually kill the threat.

In war, the military member is trying to kill the other guy and isn't worried about getting sued. The law enforcement officer isn't trying to kill anybody, but he probably does have some concern about who's going to try and sue him today for doing his job. Would law enforcement pick a round that would make them more or less likely to be sued.

There have been lots of research done on gunshot victims and how the various rounds have performed. However, since the actual numbers of people shot with each round is statistically relatively small and because of all of the variables of each of the shootings such as distance, angle, layers of clothing, size of the victim, determination of the victim, drugs in the system, etc., make these studies almost useless.

On the other hand, people have shot huge numbers of game animals with rifles and pistols for many years and have studied the effectiveness of each round very carefully.

Two things to think about.
1. How many hunters using a round .35 caliber or larger (pistol or rifle), use a hollow point because they don't think the bullet diameter is big enough.
2. How many hunters using a round .35 caliber or larger (pistol or rifle), when hunting anything that can hurt them (bite or stomp them), use a hollow point bullet.

The conclusion is not that FMJ is better, but that those looking for a personnel defense round to stop a threat and hunters looking to stop a threat have chosen different bullets to accomplish their respective tasks. Hunters typically look for more penetration (even if it is complete shoot through at any angle), while in the personnel defense realm the shooter seems to be looking for more expansion with no shoot through. I suppose the question to ask is why.

 

[JHK94]

Hunting ammunition, while not hollowpoints, is also generally not FMJ, but soft point. In fact, many states prohibit the use of FMJ for hunting because it is considered inhumane. Soft point handgun ammunition doesn't really work since most handguns can't push a bullet fast enough for a soft point to expand.

 

[NMGonzo]

.45

I have 8+1 FMJ

I may be able to land one or two, then pummel my adversary with the steel framed pistol.

 

[christcorp]

JTQ; I agree with you on the use of HP. My point was to respond to the post that said if FMJ is good enough for the military, then it's good enough for them. My response was that the military IS NOT ALLOWED to use FMJ because of signed treaties. Governments have agreed that in the Rules of war, they will use FMJ. It's not that it's better, simply that it is what is agreed upon.

 

[zt77]

hunters that use solids for dangerous game do so for a different reason. They NEED deep penetration, to break through bones and very thick skin.

 

[armsmaster270]

1. NY had overpenetration problems thats why they switched to HP

2. When we were in the phillipines we were using the 38S&W it didnt work so they resurected the 45LC from the Cav days this was pre 1911.

3. The military follows the 1899 Hague Conventions consisted of four main sections and three additional declarations (the final main section is for some reason identical to the first additional declaration):
I - Pacific Settlement of International Disputes
II - Laws and Customs of War on Land
III - Adaptation to Maritime Warfare of Principles of Geneva Convention of 1864
IV - Prohibiting Launching of Projectiles and Explosives from Balloons
Declaration I - On the Launching of Projectiles and Explosives from Balloons
Declaration II - On the Use of Projectiles the Object of Which is the Diffusion of Asphyxiating or Deleterious Gases
Declaration III - In the Use of Bullets Which Expand or Flatten Easily in the Human Body .
Even though we did not sign this one.

For SD situations accuracy is king but HP ammo will help a lot in delivering as much energy into the BG as possible. Round nose ammo slips into the body and leaves an almost self healing hole. HP ammo causes more blood loss dou to a larger hole and more damage.instead of Gel tested bullets here is one actually recovered from a BG a 110gr 28spl

 

[bigfatdave]

i want every advantage if i should have to use a gun for SD

Which is why HP ammunition is the best choice, if you are getting reliable expansion (If I pack the P32 the wife got me for my birthday, it will likely be loaded with a hot FMJ, but that is not applicable to .40)
Poorly performing HP acts like a wad-cutter, but most rounds into center mass should expand. You don't need to practice with the premium HP ammo much after you run some through for reliability testing, the difference in POA between practice ammo and commercial HP ammo isn't significant at SD distances, and you're not going for match-level accuracy anyway.

Carrying FMJ range ammo has a number of drawbacks -
-It isn't made with the same level of QA as most defense ammo, and isn't quite as reliable
in fact, I've been seeing some pretty crummy ammo in factory boxes in the last few months
-It won't expand and it may over-penetrate even more than HP would while leaving icepick-style wounds.
Remember, you aren't shooting drillbits, flesh will be pushed out of the way by a FMJ round and re-close behind it much more than the cavitation effect of HP would allow
-Generally, it isn't loaded as hot, which reduces the over-penetration issue but robs kinetic energy from a handgun round
all concealable handgun rounds are light on KE in the first place
-Perhaps it is an urban legend, but shooting ammo that says something like "personal protection" right on the box might matter to a jury
or it might not, but it couldn't hurt


Personally, I go for commercial HP ammo that works, and don't worry about having the latest wonder-bullet from the company with the most ninjas on the box. I'm budget-minded as well for ammunition, generally I pay somewhere between 75 cents to a buck a round for defense ammo (9mm), which is about triple the cost of range fodder, and approximately eleventy gazillion times more expensive than .22LR, which I shoot so much more at the range that I have actually paid for guns by shooting .22 instead of 9mm, cost-wise.

So, if you want free advice - keep a stock of HP rounds that you know work in your SD pistol, shoot them up every 6 months or so, and do more practice with rimfire to save cash. If you don't have a rimfire handgun that mimics your SD one, get one ... feel free to go cheap/used on that rimfire trainer, you don't need an Olympic-grade target pistol, you want a trainer with reasonable accuracy that at least sort of feels like your carry pistol. Don't worry about the occasional malfunction in that rimfire trainer, think of them as clearing drills and treat them like training.

 

[OurSafeHome.net]

FMJ and HP are not the only choices: Frangible

 

[rondog]

Me, quite often.

 

[SwampWolf]

Three out of the four handguns that I carry for self-defense are semi-autos. Because extreme reliability (in terms of feeding without jams) is the biggest asset I insist on in a pistol used for self-defense, my self-shuckers are all stoked with hardball-the standard when ultra-reliable function is the goal.

 

[KBintheSLC]

If I did this, I would probably use the 180 gr. bullets because they would have more mass and likely not over penetrate as bad according to my thinking.

You have it backwards... heavier bullets penetrate more than lighter ones if the caliber is the same. They have the same frontal cross section (AKA: friction) with more mass to slow down. Anyway, pretty much any .40 SW FMJ will overpenetrate on a human target.

For a .40 I would use JHP for CCW. The only gun I use FMJ in is my .32 acp... maybe some slow 230g 45 acp ball would be ok.

 

[barneyrw]

<<"The purpose of the military in small arms combat, is NOT to KILL the enemy. It is to WOUND the enemy.">>

I don't know where that comes from. I spent a year (1968 - 1969) as a Marine Corps Platoon Commander then Company Commander of a Marine Corps Rifle Company and our goal was definitely to KILL the enemy. In fact any enemy wounded usually received a final shot to the head, facts of life in war.
Back to the subject at hand, I think HP's are great but again you are not under powered with FMJ's and in some small calibers like .380's or .32's you may be better off with FMJ's.

 

[Big Bill]

The military's been using FMJ's for over a hundred years. Forty some years ago they worked just fine for me, and the enemy I fought was far tougher than some two bit mugger or burgler you might run across here in the U.S. Nothing wrong with the self defense loads but you're not underpowered with the FMJ's.

My sentiments EXACTLY! Thanks for the post.

 

[mljdeckard]

You must ALWAYS worry about overpenetration. It's not like you can load up with .40 or .45 premium JHP ammo and think to yourself; "Wow! I'm so relieved. I USED to worry that my FMJs would overpenetrate and risk injuring innocent bystanders behind the bad guy, but now that I'm using hollow-points, I can shoot a bad guy and not worry about hitting the baby in his backpack." No. You ALWAYS have to worry about your background. This NEVER changes. You don't suddenly have to worry LESS about your background just because you switched to hollow-points, it doesn't change a thing.

If there is a round with so little energy that it is not likely to exit a human target, it is too weak to use for defense. You want a round that will penetrate 12" of ballistic gelatin. This means that it is very likely to go completely through a human target with energy to spare.

I carry JHP ammo in my .45, but if for some reason I was carrying hard-ball, it wouldn't change anything at all in my plan. I think the difference is much greater on the internet than it is in real life.

 

[zt77]

+1 to above. No matter what you're using, you're still pointing your gun in their direction.

 

[BUFF]

I know the Harold Fish case in AZ was recently overturned..but, I wonder if this has led more cc's to use FMJ's. I had read that some were switching to smaller calibers because of this case.

 

[FMJMIKE]

I use FMJs in my .45 ACP 1911 and my 9 X 18 Makarov CZ-82. I am confident a well placed FMJ will stop an attacker.

 

[Commander Crusty]

The SD gun has to work. It has to work first time, every time. There may not be time to reload or clear a jam. Those are all good reasons to carry FMJ ammo.

I use FMJ in my .380 because I do not believe the HPs will be as reliable and probably won't expand anyway at .380 velocities. I figure at least the gun will work.

I use FMJ in my .45 because it's new, and I haven't had the opportunity or money to run 200+ rounds of one brand of HP through it. I can't find the HPs for a reasonable price at gun stores or on line, and I can't find them at all at my favorite department store.

Also, I'm a fan of shooting for the hips, and I believe FMJs will perform better on that type of shot. I believe braking the base is a smart way to Stop an attack, and also somewhat less likely to hit an innocent by-stander with a stray shot (since the muzzle is pointed down or at least downish). That being said, I probably will switch to HPs when I have a chance to prove they work. Either way, the SD gun has to work, first time, every time.

 

[onegun]

just remeber you are responsible for everywhere the bullet goes...

 

[JHK94]

One thing I've really learned from this thread is that a lot more people are carrying 9x18 chamberings than I thought!

 

[possum]

not I, i use corbon dpx in my handguns.

 

[ms6852]

I load my mag alternately with fmj and hollow points, just in case I have to shoot through glass or a wall, etc. with my 1911 which I carry concealed.