The Lone Haranguer
Member
As Charlie Askins used to say, "There's them as likes lotsa ca'tridges in the clip." 
But I view this as more of a bonus than a requirement.
But I view this as more of a bonus than a requirement.
Is mag capacity your #1 priority?
- Thread starter NGIB
- Start date
- Status
I think so but stopping power plays a part as well. I've always felt that the 8 rd capacity of most .45 1911 mags was too small. To me the 10rd Wilson KZ45 10 rd, H&K USP .45 12rd, and the Paraordinance P14 14rd mags are about ideal. I've never been a fan of the anemic 9mm round but if I have to carry one I'd definitely need at least 15 rds in my magazines or more.
Evocatii
Member
Capacity is not a real concern for me. The area I live in is not that dangerous. I am just as worried about mountain lions as I am of the two legged critters. I generally carry a 5 shot j-frame with one reload for just-in-case. I am just as happy with this setup as I was with an XD-40 with four magazines. Its all compromise. In any case, I figure if I can't hit my mark within the given 10 shots, then I can bludgeon the unfortunate attacker with my model 60.
.357 magnum
Member
My Two Cents
In Order I look for-
1] Realiability/Dependability
2] Accuracy/Ergonomics
3] Stopping Power
4] Mag Capacity
5] Looks
If the gun has all five of these, then I am going to buy it. I know I put Accuracy and Ergonomics on the same line. But if the guns ergonomics fit me well, then I am always more accurate with that gun. I am not down playing Mag Capacity that is for sure. Because you cannot predict what situation you may encounter or how many perps would be involved, or what weapons they may have. I only had a little over 8 years of LE experience, but there are plenty of missed shots in most gun fights. Also in these Home invasions I have noticed for the most part there are multiple intruders. In my home I have extra loaded guns. I just find it easier then extra loaded mags. I Thank God In my case I have a wife that can shoot very well and a German Shepherd/and a Lab too alert us. Having a spouse as back up is always good
[She has her own Berreta 9mm now, and she loves it!] I want to teach her the .45 and .40 too, all in good time.
The Best to All!
Frank
In Order I look for-
1] Realiability/Dependability
2] Accuracy/Ergonomics
3] Stopping Power
4] Mag Capacity
5] Looks
If the gun has all five of these, then I am going to buy it. I know I put Accuracy and Ergonomics on the same line. But if the guns ergonomics fit me well, then I am always more accurate with that gun. I am not down playing Mag Capacity that is for sure. Because you cannot predict what situation you may encounter or how many perps would be involved, or what weapons they may have. I only had a little over 8 years of LE experience, but there are plenty of missed shots in most gun fights. Also in these Home invasions I have noticed for the most part there are multiple intruders. In my home I have extra loaded guns. I just find it easier then extra loaded mags. I Thank God In my case I have a wife that can shoot very well and a German Shepherd/and a Lab too alert us. Having a spouse as back up is always good
[She has her own Berreta 9mm now, and she loves it!] I want to teach her the .45 and .40 too, all in good time.The Best to All!
Frank
Last edited:
The question suggests we have to compromise!
We have had a number of home invasions in the Phoenix area recently and they all involved more than one person. As a matter of fact, in one home invasion last week in Phoenix, there were eight guys that stormed through the door and one before that involved six invaders.
There are plenty of pistols available that have all of the traits, so why compromise?
All of the traits are equally important to me with the exception of looks and if I'm able to carry one, it will be one that is reliable, accurate and has high capacity.
With that said, I usually carry a PM9, but if I know I'm going to be in a bad part of town, the least I'll be carrying is a 9mm Wharthog with 12+1, that will give me time to get to my car and something even bigger.
We have had a number of home invasions in the Phoenix area recently and they all involved more than one person. As a matter of fact, in one home invasion last week in Phoenix, there were eight guys that stormed through the door and one before that involved six invaders.
There are plenty of pistols available that have all of the traits, so why compromise?
All of the traits are equally important to me with the exception of looks and if I'm able to carry one, it will be one that is reliable, accurate and has high capacity.
With that said, I usually carry a PM9, but if I know I'm going to be in a bad part of town, the least I'll be carrying is a 9mm Wharthog with 12+1, that will give me time to get to my car and something even bigger.
Only in 9mm and even in that caliber quality counts first.
I had a P7, great gun but heavy and only 8 rounds.
For the cost and weight, 8 rounds seemed like not much.
Of course if a Democrat get elected with a Democrat congress the mag capacity might just be a #1 priority again
I had a P7, great gun but heavy and only 8 rounds.
For the cost and weight, 8 rounds seemed like not much.
Of course if a Democrat get elected with a Democrat congress the mag capacity might just be a #1 priority again
DHart
Member
Missed shots & multiple perps make 8-round (or fewer) handguns plenty "iffy" in my mind. These days in a carry gun I look for a minimum of 11 rounds of .45 on board before a reload... (G30), or 14-rounds of .40 (G23), or 16-rounds of 124+P 9mm (G19). With a spare mag on hand as well.
Autolycus
Member
I consider it a priority. Just because I view the pistol as a primary means of defense in case something happens while away at home. I have found that I could carry a meduim size gun with little trouble. A gun like a Glock 23 or HK P2000 that has a capacity of more than 7+1 or 8+1.
I figure if I can carry that, I might as well. I like the .45 ACP round but I feel that the .40 S&W is a better choice. Not to mention I get more of it in most guns.
I figure if I can carry that, I might as well. I like the .45 ACP round but I feel that the .40 S&W is a better choice. Not to mention I get more of it in most guns.
TimboKhan
Member
No. Capacity is not my #1 priority.
I have no problems with hi-cap mags, and I have a Taurus 92 sitting all of 1 foot from me right now that has 15 rounds ready to go. But, I also carry a five-shot revolver and my bed stand gun is a 6 shot S&W. Also, I have a 1911 that I keep loaded and ready to go.
The correlation between all of these is that I can shoot each one reasonably well. By that, I mean that I can shoot each one consistently. On my best days, I am maybe a slightly above average shot with a handgun, but the key is that I know what I can do and what I can't. With the exception of my .22 pistols, I know I can put rounds into center mass with consistent regularity with every single one of my "combat" guns and that to me is more important a consideration than capacity. After all, missing 15 times is still missing!
Reliability is also key, but to me, that goes without saying. Regardless of brand, all my guns work, and I demand that all of my autos feed everything that I throw at them. I don't care if an auto is 100% reliable with one brand of ammo: I want it to be 100% reliable with ALL brands and types of ammo, and if it isn't, I ditch it. Obviously, if it is a crappy round I don't blame the gun, but provided the rounds are good, the gun better feed them. All my guns do, with my P90 (8 shots) being the king of kings when it comes to reliability.
Another thing I don't particularly care about is ease of disassembly. I don't want to have to hassle with it to clean it, but neither do I require that I can field-strip it in seconds either. Frankly, if a gun won't run when it gets dirty, I don't particularly want it anyway. To that end, I use a grease on my autos as opposed to oil, and the grease gets applied sparingly to just the parts that need it. Everything else stays dry. Colorado isn't humid, so rust is rarely an issue. Right now, my 1911 has about 500 rounds through it and I haven't cleaned it one bit, as I am specifically trying to figure out at what point it will fail. My P90 got 1000 rounds through it with zero cleaning and never failed, and thats good enough for me, so I cleaned it. My Taurus 92 is the same as the other two. I have shot it dirty, it runs fine, and it has earned a spot in my collection. My revolvers all work perfectly dirty or clean, and I run them about 99% dry, with just a touch of oil at the pivot points, but then, it's a revolver.
I guess what this all boils down too is this: My #1 priority is ruggedness. Not reliability, but ruggedness. I want a gun that can maintain a certain level of performance under relatively bad conditions, and all of mine do that. I will add that once they have passed my "torture test", I do keep them pretty clean, and I care for them.
My #2 priority? Good sights. I am no crack shot, but I want to be able to see my sights clearly and well. I can forgive my little snubby for not having great sights, but all the rest of my guns do, with the exception of the Taurus 92, whose sights are too small for my taste. One day I will change them, but for thats really my only complaint with that particular gun.
I have no problems with hi-cap mags, and I have a Taurus 92 sitting all of 1 foot from me right now that has 15 rounds ready to go. But, I also carry a five-shot revolver and my bed stand gun is a 6 shot S&W. Also, I have a 1911 that I keep loaded and ready to go.
The correlation between all of these is that I can shoot each one reasonably well. By that, I mean that I can shoot each one consistently. On my best days, I am maybe a slightly above average shot with a handgun, but the key is that I know what I can do and what I can't. With the exception of my .22 pistols, I know I can put rounds into center mass with consistent regularity with every single one of my "combat" guns and that to me is more important a consideration than capacity. After all, missing 15 times is still missing!
Reliability is also key, but to me, that goes without saying. Regardless of brand, all my guns work, and I demand that all of my autos feed everything that I throw at them. I don't care if an auto is 100% reliable with one brand of ammo: I want it to be 100% reliable with ALL brands and types of ammo, and if it isn't, I ditch it. Obviously, if it is a crappy round I don't blame the gun, but provided the rounds are good, the gun better feed them. All my guns do, with my P90 (8 shots) being the king of kings when it comes to reliability.
Another thing I don't particularly care about is ease of disassembly. I don't want to have to hassle with it to clean it, but neither do I require that I can field-strip it in seconds either. Frankly, if a gun won't run when it gets dirty, I don't particularly want it anyway. To that end, I use a grease on my autos as opposed to oil, and the grease gets applied sparingly to just the parts that need it. Everything else stays dry. Colorado isn't humid, so rust is rarely an issue. Right now, my 1911 has about 500 rounds through it and I haven't cleaned it one bit, as I am specifically trying to figure out at what point it will fail. My P90 got 1000 rounds through it with zero cleaning and never failed, and thats good enough for me, so I cleaned it. My Taurus 92 is the same as the other two. I have shot it dirty, it runs fine, and it has earned a spot in my collection. My revolvers all work perfectly dirty or clean, and I run them about 99% dry, with just a touch of oil at the pivot points, but then, it's a revolver.
I guess what this all boils down too is this: My #1 priority is ruggedness. Not reliability, but ruggedness. I want a gun that can maintain a certain level of performance under relatively bad conditions, and all of mine do that. I will add that once they have passed my "torture test", I do keep them pretty clean, and I care for them.
My #2 priority? Good sights. I am no crack shot, but I want to be able to see my sights clearly and well. I can forgive my little snubby for not having great sights, but all the rest of my guns do, with the exception of the Taurus 92, whose sights are too small for my taste. One day I will change them, but for thats really my only complaint with that particular gun.
DHart
Member
Some clarification of my views... I don't feel that mag capacity is more important than anything else... I think only someone terribly ignorant would feel that way. My approach is that given one's got a reliable gun, of sufficient potency for defense, and is skilled in handling the weapon and putting rounds where they need to go, yes, magazine capacity can be so important that your life may very well depend on it. But I would never place mag capacity above a gun's reliability or a shooter's ability to shoot well.
Calling capacity "#1 Priority" is stating the point incorrectly, in my view, because no one thing is #1 priority... I presume that it's a given that a shooter can shoot well and that his gun is reliable and of sufficient caliber with superior ammunition. So, no, mag capacity isn't the #1 factor. Nothing is #1. But once a reliable gun in sufficient caliber is relatively mastered, yes, I think mag capacity is VERY important, because missed shots and multiple perps are to be expected! I do vascillate between 11 rounds of .45 in my G30, 14 rounds of .40 in my G23, and 16 rounds of 124 gr +P Gold Dots in my G19. From a logical standpoint, I guess I'd have to say that of the three gun/caliber options I mentioned, the happy medium of caliber and capacity is the G23, though I usually carry the G30. Would feel well armed with the G19 as well.
Calling capacity "#1 Priority" is stating the point incorrectly, in my view, because no one thing is #1 priority... I presume that it's a given that a shooter can shoot well and that his gun is reliable and of sufficient caliber with superior ammunition. So, no, mag capacity isn't the #1 factor. Nothing is #1. But once a reliable gun in sufficient caliber is relatively mastered, yes, I think mag capacity is VERY important, because missed shots and multiple perps are to be expected! I do vascillate between 11 rounds of .45 in my G30, 14 rounds of .40 in my G23, and 16 rounds of 124 gr +P Gold Dots in my G19. From a logical standpoint, I guess I'd have to say that of the three gun/caliber options I mentioned, the happy medium of caliber and capacity is the G23, though I usually carry the G30. Would feel well armed with the G19 as well.
MostlyGenius
Member
- Joined
- Nov 11, 2007
- Messages
- 58
Capacity is money in the bank for a rainy day, nothing more. How much you need depends upon how hard it is raining. A five shot revolver in the right hands is plenty of capacity against an attacker (or two) with a bit of luck. However that is a pretty thin margin.
I don't mean to derail the thread, but a lot of people have chimed in saying that stopping power is more important than accuracy. Most modern guns are accurate enough for defensive purposes and it is not really an issue (though I would say that if your handgun could launch bowling balls at 3000 ft/sec. you would probably like to know that they were going where they were aimed.) My question is what are people basing this assessment of stopping power on? As far as I can tell there is no consistent science to say that any major caliber handgun caliber/round is a more reliable fight stopper than another.
In relation to capacity, I would want more than double the "stopping power" to make up for having half the capacity. A reduction in capacity is a reduction in the number of chances to effect a stop for each threat you are facing.
I don't mean to derail the thread, but a lot of people have chimed in saying that stopping power is more important than accuracy. Most modern guns are accurate enough for defensive purposes and it is not really an issue (though I would say that if your handgun could launch bowling balls at 3000 ft/sec. you would probably like to know that they were going where they were aimed.) My question is what are people basing this assessment of stopping power on? As far as I can tell there is no consistent science to say that any major caliber handgun caliber/round is a more reliable fight stopper than another.
In relation to capacity, I would want more than double the "stopping power" to make up for having half the capacity. A reduction in capacity is a reduction in the number of chances to effect a stop for each threat you are facing.
AK103K
member
- Joined
- Dec 27, 2002
- Messages
- 7,610
I just got this in an email, Gabe's ears must have been ringing.
KILLING SACRED COWS
Some COMBAT TRUTHS ignored in most gun schools.
The fight will be what the fight will be. Period.
If you are one of those guys' whose proactive fight will be solved by a 5 shot snubby revolver with no reload available, great for you. If you do not get one of those fights, and all you have is a snubby 5 shot, you will wish you were carrying something else. Simple.
Force on force is as close as you can get to a real gunfight. Is it a real gunfight? No. You want to know what that is all about, go to a Crip/Blood neighborhood in L.A. wearing a KKK outfit, or to some of the places we hang out at in South America. You will find out. If you don't want to do that, FOF is your only test.
What we have learned from FOF (and Gunfights because some of our guys have actually shot for blood).
Fights are either ambushes or reaction to ambush. If you can guarantee 100% 24/7/365 that all your fights will be ambushes because you eat live and breathe in condition orange all the time, then go practice your marksmanship and don't worry about anything else. But I would ask if you are so tuned and alert, you can probably avoid all those fights anyway which would make the carry of ANY weapon unnecessary.
If you agree that at least 50% of the time (perhaps more) you will be reacting to the ambush, then what we teach here should make sense to you. Too much range training in search of marksmanship is like too much kata in search of visual appeal. Both drive you away from combat truth.
When you are reacting to ambush, standing still and trying to out-draw and out-marksman the other guy will simply get you shot. I defy anyone to show me otherwise at a FOF session.
When you realize you have to move dynamically off the x or get shot, we move away from range-based marksmanship to what is adequate marksmanship. Marksmanship on a paper, cardboard, or steel is all well and good and easy to pull off on a sterile range where you are in no danger. Its another thing altogether when you are being shot at.
Hit ratio? I will say that most shots hit. Once the guys get used to "letting go" of old range habits, the ratio improves. Think you can guarantee 100% hits by standing still? Great. Do it with out getting shot by the other guy when he has started the fight. Show me against a man who is trying to hit you, don't just tell me what you can do on a target.
Do you miss? Yes you do. It is inevitable. Don't want to miss? Too bad. Again, show me you can do this in a reactive fight (you don't get to start early).
Do your hits go to peripheral areas like hands, arms and legs? Yes they do. If this is the trade off for you NOT getting shot it sounds like a fine deal to me. Again...if you have a better way, show me in a live FOF drill with an uncoop opponent trying to shoot you.
If your hits go to peripheral areas, you will need to keep shooting until the bad guy has had enough, physically succumbs to the damage, or you hit a vital area. If you can do this with 5 shots, again...great for you. Now do it with a 200 pound MMA fighter running right at you from 5 yards fully intent on knocking your block off with a tire iron. What's that? It affects your flash sight picture a little bit when you have to haul ass away from him? Yes...we know that.
The other thing is that Americans are some of the toughest and biggest people on earth. I have seen guys get hit in the chest wioth just about every type of SD caliber out there and still keep fighting. I know of a case where it was a shotgun slug no less! If you give him your best five and he is not impressed what will you do? Reload while running away? Do you train that?
Some of you say "Is spraying fifteen plus rounds around as good as shooting five rounds and accomplishing the same results.?" Again, taking into consideration the difficulty in stopping an angry shooting American, and hitting him while you yourself are getting shot at, I would ask that you show me how you do this.
Are we assuming that one hit = one stop? If that is the case, best of luck to you.
"Where are the other ten plus rounds? In the bad guys also or through a window, wall and into an innocent victim?"
Choose right now.
1). Guarantee all your rounds will always hit what you aim at, but you also get hit with the bad guy's rounds. You will be shot, and maybe injured or dead, but you will be liability free.
Or
2). Do your best, but accept that some of your shots may not only over-penetrate, but not even hit the bad guy...but you will not be hit by his bullets. But you may incur some legal problems due to your gunfire (MAY not SHALL).
Pick now. But talk is cheap. Show me you can back up your choice 100%, 24/7/365 in a force on force drill.
Listen guys...I think my staff and I are pretty good shots. We get to shoot all the time. We have run probably close to 1000 FOF students to date, and none of them have been able to replicate the marksmanship they were so proud of at the range under these circumstances. I know full well that none of us is a superman and all of us are liable to the dynamics of the fight.
That is why I carry a Glock 22 with a couple of extra magazines and train in stress-proof gun handling drills, and shooting while exploding off the X. I like snubbies, but selecting a 5 or 6 shot revolver in today's world is like choosing a lever action rifle when you have FALs and AKs in volume. You can make them work if everything is working for you. But if things are not working for you, you will be screwed. So do you feel lucky?
__________________
Gabe Suarez
Suarez International USA, Inc.
One Source Tactical
[email protected]
Office 928-776-4492
KILLING SACRED COWS
Some COMBAT TRUTHS ignored in most gun schools.
The fight will be what the fight will be. Period.
If you are one of those guys' whose proactive fight will be solved by a 5 shot snubby revolver with no reload available, great for you. If you do not get one of those fights, and all you have is a snubby 5 shot, you will wish you were carrying something else. Simple.
Force on force is as close as you can get to a real gunfight. Is it a real gunfight? No. You want to know what that is all about, go to a Crip/Blood neighborhood in L.A. wearing a KKK outfit, or to some of the places we hang out at in South America. You will find out. If you don't want to do that, FOF is your only test.
What we have learned from FOF (and Gunfights because some of our guys have actually shot for blood).
Fights are either ambushes or reaction to ambush. If you can guarantee 100% 24/7/365 that all your fights will be ambushes because you eat live and breathe in condition orange all the time, then go practice your marksmanship and don't worry about anything else. But I would ask if you are so tuned and alert, you can probably avoid all those fights anyway which would make the carry of ANY weapon unnecessary.
If you agree that at least 50% of the time (perhaps more) you will be reacting to the ambush, then what we teach here should make sense to you. Too much range training in search of marksmanship is like too much kata in search of visual appeal. Both drive you away from combat truth.
When you are reacting to ambush, standing still and trying to out-draw and out-marksman the other guy will simply get you shot. I defy anyone to show me otherwise at a FOF session.
When you realize you have to move dynamically off the x or get shot, we move away from range-based marksmanship to what is adequate marksmanship. Marksmanship on a paper, cardboard, or steel is all well and good and easy to pull off on a sterile range where you are in no danger. Its another thing altogether when you are being shot at.
Hit ratio? I will say that most shots hit. Once the guys get used to "letting go" of old range habits, the ratio improves. Think you can guarantee 100% hits by standing still? Great. Do it with out getting shot by the other guy when he has started the fight. Show me against a man who is trying to hit you, don't just tell me what you can do on a target.
Do you miss? Yes you do. It is inevitable. Don't want to miss? Too bad. Again, show me you can do this in a reactive fight (you don't get to start early).
Do your hits go to peripheral areas like hands, arms and legs? Yes they do. If this is the trade off for you NOT getting shot it sounds like a fine deal to me. Again...if you have a better way, show me in a live FOF drill with an uncoop opponent trying to shoot you.
If your hits go to peripheral areas, you will need to keep shooting until the bad guy has had enough, physically succumbs to the damage, or you hit a vital area. If you can do this with 5 shots, again...great for you. Now do it with a 200 pound MMA fighter running right at you from 5 yards fully intent on knocking your block off with a tire iron. What's that? It affects your flash sight picture a little bit when you have to haul ass away from him? Yes...we know that.
The other thing is that Americans are some of the toughest and biggest people on earth. I have seen guys get hit in the chest wioth just about every type of SD caliber out there and still keep fighting. I know of a case where it was a shotgun slug no less! If you give him your best five and he is not impressed what will you do? Reload while running away? Do you train that?
Some of you say "Is spraying fifteen plus rounds around as good as shooting five rounds and accomplishing the same results.?" Again, taking into consideration the difficulty in stopping an angry shooting American, and hitting him while you yourself are getting shot at, I would ask that you show me how you do this.
Are we assuming that one hit = one stop? If that is the case, best of luck to you.
"Where are the other ten plus rounds? In the bad guys also or through a window, wall and into an innocent victim?"
Choose right now.
1). Guarantee all your rounds will always hit what you aim at, but you also get hit with the bad guy's rounds. You will be shot, and maybe injured or dead, but you will be liability free.
Or
2). Do your best, but accept that some of your shots may not only over-penetrate, but not even hit the bad guy...but you will not be hit by his bullets. But you may incur some legal problems due to your gunfire (MAY not SHALL).
Pick now. But talk is cheap. Show me you can back up your choice 100%, 24/7/365 in a force on force drill.
Listen guys...I think my staff and I are pretty good shots. We get to shoot all the time. We have run probably close to 1000 FOF students to date, and none of them have been able to replicate the marksmanship they were so proud of at the range under these circumstances. I know full well that none of us is a superman and all of us are liable to the dynamics of the fight.
That is why I carry a Glock 22 with a couple of extra magazines and train in stress-proof gun handling drills, and shooting while exploding off the X. I like snubbies, but selecting a 5 or 6 shot revolver in today's world is like choosing a lever action rifle when you have FALs and AKs in volume. You can make them work if everything is working for you. But if things are not working for you, you will be screwed. So do you feel lucky?
__________________
Gabe Suarez
Suarez International USA, Inc.
One Source Tactical
[email protected]
Office 928-776-4492
Capacity is WAY DOWN on my list about what's important about a handgun. WAAAAY down. It is literally not even on the radar.
Here's my list of elements that are important, in decending order:
1. Proficiency - The ability to handle the firearm extremely well in all conditions (strong hand, weak hand, strong eye, weak eye), using correct tactics and cover, extensive practice, extensive competition at the area level, proficient draw, etc.
As side point . . . I practice at all ranges out to 100 yards with my primary defensive handguns and instinctively know the bullet drop at each distance. Without a head knowledge of where the bullet will go, ya can't hit the target accurately!
2. Weapons that fit the hand perfectly, point perfectly AND . . . with great triggers.
3. Reliable weapons that always go bang, and that point naturally.
4. Shot placement (see point #1). The best caliber and bullet won't do you much good if you don't know where to put it . . . and/or can't put the bullet on the spot!
5. Experience . . . as in anything else requiring manual dexterity, the better and harder you practice doing things . . . the better you get. This includes speed + precision in shooting AND reloading, plus the instant recognition of whats going on . . . and experience gained in clearing all sorts of malfunctions that comes with shooting tens of thousands of rounds.
6. Calibers with stellar performance results.
7. Ammo with the best performance results
8. Adaquate reloads handy
9. Back up firearm (that meets all the above criteria) handy plus reloads for this weapon.
For legal concealed carry purposes of course, this would also include weapons that conceal well but also have great accuracy, PLUS excellent holsters and ammo carrying equipment.
HIGH CAP? Are you kidding? I'm not LEO or soldier who has orders to hold ground and potentially trade lots of rounds with cover with an entrenched gunman. If trapped in a fight, either on the road or at home, I've always got 60+ primary firearm rounds loaded in magazines, speed loaders or moon clips . . . plus at least 15-20 for my backup . . . and that ought to give me time to fight to the SHOTGUN!
If all that fails . . . it wasn't my day anyway.
HOWEVER . . . I gave my oldest son his first centerfire pistol last year, after he got his CCW. It is a Glock 23 in .40S&W.
Like lots of novice shooters, he lacks the range time, practice time and experience that I've got . . . and high cap magazines can allow for more misses when the shooter is a novice. I see a big plus to have high cap. handguns for novice cops and soldiers for the same reasons!
BTW . . . missing scares the HELL out of me!!! With each shot a shooter hurriedly cranks out with poor skill . . . comes the added risk of hurting or killing an innocent person. Thus, it is best for a civilian to "pay their dues" and master all facets of handgun use and carry.
Lots of bullets is no substitue for hitting your targets perfectly, quickly, and with consistency using a great SD round!
Here's my list of elements that are important, in decending order:
1. Proficiency - The ability to handle the firearm extremely well in all conditions (strong hand, weak hand, strong eye, weak eye), using correct tactics and cover, extensive practice, extensive competition at the area level, proficient draw, etc.
As side point . . . I practice at all ranges out to 100 yards with my primary defensive handguns and instinctively know the bullet drop at each distance. Without a head knowledge of where the bullet will go, ya can't hit the target accurately!
2. Weapons that fit the hand perfectly, point perfectly AND . . . with great triggers.
3. Reliable weapons that always go bang, and that point naturally.
4. Shot placement (see point #1). The best caliber and bullet won't do you much good if you don't know where to put it . . . and/or can't put the bullet on the spot!
5. Experience . . . as in anything else requiring manual dexterity, the better and harder you practice doing things . . . the better you get. This includes speed + precision in shooting AND reloading, plus the instant recognition of whats going on . . . and experience gained in clearing all sorts of malfunctions that comes with shooting tens of thousands of rounds.
6. Calibers with stellar performance results.
7. Ammo with the best performance results
8. Adaquate reloads handy
9. Back up firearm (that meets all the above criteria) handy plus reloads for this weapon.
For legal concealed carry purposes of course, this would also include weapons that conceal well but also have great accuracy, PLUS excellent holsters and ammo carrying equipment.
HIGH CAP? Are you kidding? I'm not LEO or soldier who has orders to hold ground and potentially trade lots of rounds with cover with an entrenched gunman. If trapped in a fight, either on the road or at home, I've always got 60+ primary firearm rounds loaded in magazines, speed loaders or moon clips . . . plus at least 15-20 for my backup . . . and that ought to give me time to fight to the SHOTGUN!
If all that fails . . . it wasn't my day anyway.
HOWEVER . . . I gave my oldest son his first centerfire pistol last year, after he got his CCW. It is a Glock 23 in .40S&W.
Like lots of novice shooters, he lacks the range time, practice time and experience that I've got . . . and high cap magazines can allow for more misses when the shooter is a novice. I see a big plus to have high cap. handguns for novice cops and soldiers for the same reasons!
BTW . . . missing scares the HELL out of me!!! With each shot a shooter hurriedly cranks out with poor skill . . . comes the added risk of hurting or killing an innocent person. Thus, it is best for a civilian to "pay their dues" and master all facets of handgun use and carry.
Lots of bullets is no substitue for hitting your targets perfectly, quickly, and with consistency using a great SD round!
Blackbeard
Member
For those of you answering that mag capacity is not a priority, how many already own a "high" cap handgun?
For me, I only got back into guns after a bill was introduced to ban the so-called "high capacity" magazines. (I won't say which party, but it rhymes with Phlegmocrats.) So, my priority was to acquire one before the ban could be passed.
I do have small hands and I think a single-stack would be easier for me to shoot, so future purchases will focus on usability and suitability for a particular purpose, but I feel the need to aquire politically incorrect firearms while I'm still can.
For me, I only got back into guns after a bill was introduced to ban the so-called "high capacity" magazines. (I won't say which party, but it rhymes with Phlegmocrats.) So, my priority was to acquire one before the ban could be passed.
I do have small hands and I think a single-stack would be easier for me to shoot, so future purchases will focus on usability and suitability for a particular purpose, but I feel the need to aquire politically incorrect firearms while I'm still can.
glocktalk362
Member
Well A .45 8-9shot Firearm Is Probly Not Sutible For Duty Cary Due To The Fact That The Officer Will Be Sent Into Places That Civilians Can Avoid, Like A Gun Fight With 8 Gang Bangers. This May Instil A Problem Of The Reloading Aspect Of The Gun. But For Just Everyday Carry A 1911 Pistol Should Be Fine. FOR INSTANCE NYPD ON DUTY GUNS ARE THE .40CAL GLOCK 22 ( 15RDS ), AND THE SIG229 ( 13RDS ) WHILE THE OFF DUTY CARRY GUNS ARE 7 SHOT .40CAL KAHR FIREARMS
Vern Humphrey
Member
Depends on accessability -- a gun in an ankle holster might take longer to get into action than a reload from a magazine in a belt carrier.
And you can reload an automatic before it runs dry.
My priorities are as follows:
Accuracy-I am a consistiently accurate shooter and my gun must match or exceed my ability.
Reliability-My firearm must shoot every time I pull the trigger. My firearm must also cycle every time fired without failure in any way.
Caliber Choice-I prefer large and slow to small and fast.
Magazine Capacity- At least 5 rounds....must match or exceed my revolvers, or I will carry them instead.
Size for Concealed Carry- This is a personal preference, but I will carry a full sized gun from time to time. Mid sized (4") barrels are my preference in semi-auto's, 2"-3" barrels in my carry revolvers.
Asthetics-Yes I want a good looking gun. Nice bead blasted stainless or a deep blue and a nice set of wood grips if possible. No it does not make it shoot better or function better. I guess I could just live in a tent instead of the house I remodeled to my liking, or drive a Yugo instead of my nice car...! Both would provide for my basic needs but I prefer to splurge a little.
Accuracy-I am a consistiently accurate shooter and my gun must match or exceed my ability.
Reliability-My firearm must shoot every time I pull the trigger. My firearm must also cycle every time fired without failure in any way.
Caliber Choice-I prefer large and slow to small and fast.
Magazine Capacity- At least 5 rounds....must match or exceed my revolvers, or I will carry them instead.
Size for Concealed Carry- This is a personal preference, but I will carry a full sized gun from time to time. Mid sized (4") barrels are my preference in semi-auto's, 2"-3" barrels in my carry revolvers.
Asthetics-Yes I want a good looking gun. Nice bead blasted stainless or a deep blue and a nice set of wood grips if possible. No it does not make it shoot better or function better. I guess I could just live in a tent instead of the house I remodeled to my liking, or drive a Yugo instead of my nice car...! Both would provide for my basic needs but I prefer to splurge a little.
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