Why a grip safety on a 1911?

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Cavalry

Carl said:

>I have noticed that the New Safety on the Mauser 1896
and the grip safety on the Browning 1911 were dictated
by the concerns of the Cavalry<
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Nope. The cavalry concern was addressed by the thumb safety.

An exerpt from Charles Clawson's Volume 2: (Verbatim)

>>Colt's records aren't conclusive, but it is known that at least eight Model 1910 pistols were manufactured and numbered in their own serial range from 1 to 8 inclusive.

In July, 1910, John Browning designed a new mechanical safety lock to answer the concerns expressed by the Cavalry Board. It was intended for use in mounted service should a horse become troublesome or unmanageable. The safety lock could be engaged with a flick of the thumb, ensuring that the drawn, cocked pistol could not be accidentally discharged.<<

Pistol #6, Model of 1910 was tested at Springfield Armory wearing the first thumb safety.
 
The Old Fuff is always such a party-pooper… :uhoh:

There are those that say the grip safety doesn’t present any problems so far as they are concerned, because (for them) it works. This is true as far as it goes, but I can assure one and all that if it doesn’t work it can be a major and vexing troublemaker.

I have average to small hands with long fingers. Years ago I discovered that if I rested my thumb on top of the safety lock’s pad in the approved manner dictated by Jeff Cooper’s “modern technique” my thumb didn’t have enough meat at its base to fully depress the grip safety, and no matter how hard I yanked the trigger the pistol wouldn’t go “BANG!”

This sort of thing could get one into trouble… :what:

At Cooper’s suggestion I blocked the safety in so that it was always in the off position, and this solved the problem in a most satisfactory manner.

Until…

The handwringer’s came along and pointed out that I had done a bad no-no by deactivating a factory safety device. Doing so I was told, would get me into trouble with the criminal justice and legal professions, especially if I ever used the pistol for the purpose it was intended. Since I was living in what is now called, in political terms, a left-wing “blue state” at the time I could see that while the likelihood was improbable it was not impossible.

So I went to an alternative solution. The grip safety was “adjusted” so the heel at the bottom stuck out as far as possible, and then the front was fixed so that the slightest forward movement would unblock the trigger. Thus the safety would pass a functioning test, but just barely work as a safety. This configuration satisfied the handwringers while at the same time it solved my problem. I much preferred the first method, but the second would do. My modified safeties would work either way.

Concerning the Star BM safety…

This will undoubtedly star a flame war, but the Star’s manual safety is far superior to the Browning/Colt’s design. In the 1911 pattern a lug on the safety lock (manual safety) blocks the nose of the sear into the hammer’s hooks. Thus the relatively fragile sear becomes a part of the safety system as well as for its obvious purpose. It also depends on a full set of hammer hooks as well as a sear nose with a minimal break away angle to insure its maximum reliability in the safety role. In this day and age when everyone wants and expects a crisp trigger pull of 4 pounds or less, a hammer/sear set that are still within original specifications are as scarce as hen’s teeth.

The Star is entirely different. The manual safety blocks the hammer, not the sear. The block is in the form of a substantial shaft that is supported on both sides of the hammer by the frame. When the safety is engaged the hammer is literally lifted off of the sear, and the sear plays no part in the safety function. Thus hammer hook/sear issues become moot so far as the safety is concerned. With this system a grip safety becomes superfluous, which is the reason Star didn’t incorporate one.

It should be noted that the Browning P-35 Hi-Power, which was probably the most widely distributed service pistol ever made, had the Browning 1911 style manual safety, but no grip safety. Even so, it has no history of accidental/unintentional discharges because of the lack of a grip safety.

Our moderator is quite correct when he says that deactivating a factory installed safety can lead to serious liability in today’s society. On the other hand a device that hinders or compromises the fast, effective deployment of a weapon may invite even more serious consequences. Careful adjustments or modifications short of deactivation may be acceptable in some instances. But the best solution is to make careful selections when buying the gun in the first place, and avoiding the kind that manufacturers have made “too safe.”
 
Star, et al

Quite so, old bean. I like the Star design and way it cams the hammer off the sear.

I too, have a problem with the grip safety when firing with the thumb atop the thumb safety...so I just don't do it. In spite of the good Colonel's warnings of inadvertently activating the thumb safety, it's never happened to me. Of course, I see to it that all my thumb safeties engage and disengage with a positive "snick" and hold position well...so it's not a concern for me.
Others' experience may vary.

On adjusting the grip safety for early release...It's easy to do by carefully following the angle on the nose to raise the contact point with the trigger stirrup, thereby allowing a good, solid trigger block while releasing within about half travel or a bit less.

As stated...Everyone may make their own personal decisions as to whether deactivating the grip safety is an acceptable risk. Once the round is fired, it can't be unfired...and the final responsibility for any decision made prior to that point is established, and it will be up to a jury of our peers to decide
whether the decisions were wise...or not.
 
Interesting discussion.

SVI, a custom 1911 house, sells a thumb safety with both a sear and hammer "block". It doesn't sound similiar to the Star, but sounds "better" than the standard.

Series 80 style FP block also eliminates the need for a grip safety...does it not?

I'm biased and may be wrong, but I still believe a 1911 producer would sell a lot of 1911s without a grip safety...as a selling point.

On the other hand, Kimber and S&W sell lot's with the "dumb and dumber" approach of a FP block activated by a grip safety. :rolleyes:

So, clearly I don't represent the typical 1911 user.
 
This thread brings back memories. Years ago I picked up a used Star in almost new shape. As I remember it was a pretty good little gun. I was out shooting with a friend who had bought a used Colt Combat Commander. The Colt had lots of holster wear and some cheap plastic grips that were scratched up, but otherwise looked in pretty good shape. My friend was having trouble with the grip safety and thought it might be a mechanical problem. Even then I had lots of 1911 parts and figured I could get the Colt running so I traded him for the Star.

I kept that Colt for years and never had any problems with it, plus, except for springs, I didn’t change out any parts. Looking back my friend did have sort of small hands and I have larger hands. I lost touch with my friend but the last time I talked to him he still had and liked the Star. I put new shiny cheap plastic grips on the Colt and traded it off years later with a little more wear on it.

Also for years I carried one of the small Detonics that did not have a grip safety and it never went bang when I did not want it to. Still, I am lucky and have never had problems with any 1911 type pistol that has had a grip safety. Right-size hands I guess.
 
re:

45Auto asked:

>Series 80 style FP block also eliminates the need for a grip safety...does it not?<
**********

Nope. The Series 80 FP safety only makes the gun more drop-safe...which isn't needed as long as the firing pin spring is good, unless you plan on dropping the gun onto concrete from the top of a 6-foot stepladder.

The Series 80 system works off the trigger, which has to be pulled in order to disengage the blocking plunger in the slide. Grip safety blocks the trigger...
 
Tuner,

As far as preventing an AD, which is what these safety devices are intended to do, don't you think the series 80 actually could prevent an AD compared to a grip safety? And with lightweight aluminum triggers now, that the grip safety serves no practical/useful purpose?

Those are questions... since I feel like a one legged man in a sprint if I'm debating the technical merits of the 1911 with you. ;)
 
Series 80

Howdy 45Auto,

The passive firing pin blocking system of the Series 80 only works to prevent an AD/ND if the pistol is dropped, or if the hammer follows all the way to the slide with the finger off the trigger. Since pulling the trigger allows the firing pin to strike the primer, the absence of the grip safety would make the FP safety unable to prevent an unintentional discharge if the trigger was inadvertently pulled. (The grip safety only blocks trigger movement, and trigger movement disengages the firing pin block.)

On the lightweight trigger/hammer follow question...unless there's a problem with the disconnect or hammer/sear interface at the half-cock notch, hammer followdown is stopped by the half-cock when nudged off by the trigger during a finger-off reload because the sear resets unless the trigger is held rearward. If the hammer makes it to the slide during a finger-off reload,
you've got a malfunction that makes the gun unsafe to even load.

While the Series 80 system would be a backup safety in the event of hammer follow that makes it all the way to the firing pin, it wouldn't stop a burst-fire/full-auto event during live fire, because the trigger is pulled.
It would only prevent a hammer follow discharge if the finger is off trigger...
and if that happens, you've got other problems that should cause you to immediately cease firing, unload the gun, and have it repaired.

The Swartz system is in the Go Bang position when the grip safety is depressed, and has nothing to do with the trigger. It's also a drop-safe modification only.
 
Thanks Tuner,

IMveryHO, I think the series 80 "advantage" is it's ability to prevent an AD if the hammer follows the slide down. This I have seen, with an AD, and read about more than several times with a series 70. Granted, it's usually an issue of mis-worked trigger parts...but that half cock doesn't always seem to catch.

As you have written several times before, the "original" setup had much higher hammer hooks/ more sear engagement so hammers following was probably pretty rare...I would guess! Nowadays, I suspect, more common because of the lighter pulls and shorter hooks.

Anyway, good discussion.
 
re:

45Auto said:

>, I think the series 80 "advantage" is it's ability to prevent an AD if the hammer follows the slide down.<
*************************

Only if the trigger isn't pulled. Again...If the hammer follows the slide with finger off trigger, there's a problem that needs to be corrected before loading the gun again...with or without the Series 80 system...because it's likely only a matter of time until the gun goes full auto when firing it.

But I see what you're saying. The system would prevent an AD with a reload from slidelock/finger off trigger if something was haywire within the fire control group. This is a possibility with any autoloading weapon, which is why it's important to keep a firm grip and mind where the muzzle is pointed during loading. It's also why I recommend learning to detail-strip the 1911 pistol for regular cleaning and inspection.
 
I love them

Here is a post I authored a few years ago. It just goes to show why I am such a firm believer in the grip safety.


http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=82756
My two favorite features of the SA XD are the excellent trigger, and the grip safety. The reason I am such big fan of the grip safety is because the other night it saved me from having a ND. It was late and I had just finished cleaning my XD. I use my XD as my home defense gun. I like to use my XD because I just bought a M6 light and laser unit that mounts on the front. I had loaded mag and inserted into the gun, I chambered a round, and then topped off the mag. As I was leaving my gun room in the basement I remembered that I had left some stuff in the pathway to the stairs. Since all the lights were out I decided to use the M6 to illuminate my path. For some reason the M6 was set to off so I was having trouble getting it to work. In my tired state my mind decided that to get the light to come on I should pull the trigger!!! I know that sounds crazy, but that’s what I did.

The good news is I was not holding on to the frame properly so the grip safety was not engaged.(thank God) The trigger was pulled all the way to the rear and stopped. At that point it started to register in my mind what had happened. I put the gun down and sat down in a chair. I probably sat there in the dark for 10 minutes analyzing what I had just done. It scared me to think that I had almost shot my gun in the basement while my wife was upstairs sleeping. I am now so thankful for the grip safety. The gun was pointed in a safe direction and would not have shot anything except the wall and maybe my computer desk.

I know the best safety is the one between our ears, but the grip safety on the XD saved my butt. This experience has made me slow down and think things through more thoroughly before acting. I hope my story helps someone. Oh by the way the XD shoots like a dream, and I have had great luck shooting it in our IPSC event.
 
Grip Safety

I like the grip safety on my Para-Ordinance Warthog because it provides an extra level of safety in case the manual safety gets inadvertantly disengaged. I used to have a Star .45acp Firestar and on several occations I would check my gun in it's holster and realized that I was carrying a single-action handgun with the safety turned off. COCKED and UNLOCKED!!! SCARY!!!!!!!!!
 
If I may add... one "unintended consequence" of the 1911 grip safety is it lends a degree of modularity to the backstrap of the weapon. Both the grip safety and the mainsping housing (thus the entire backstrap), can be changed, thus fitted to individual hands. Looking at a similar feature in modern offerings such as the sig pro, Smith & Wesson M&P (auto), and a few others, it seems, once again, that it's taken the rest of the semiautomatic pistol world 90 or so years to catch up with JMB. :evil:

DanO
 
There is one reason I really like grip safeties, and not just on the 1911, but on the XD as well.

When I teach basic handgun, I take the time to show how to reholster. Why? You see people doing the "speed reholster" all the time, and it is a great way to accidently shoot yourself in the leg when you get sloppy.

The technique I teach, (stolen shamelessly from Massad Ayood), is that when you lower the gun to reholster, you take your thumb off the grip, and place it on top of the hammer.

So now if the trigger is pulled while going into the holster, (strap in the way, shirt in the holster, finger stupidly on trigger, etc)
-single action guns with no grip safeties (BHP) hammers will fall, but be blocked by the thumb.
-double action guns hammers can't cock
-hammerless guns that have a grip safety, (like the XD) can't fire.
-single action guns with a grip safety (1911) are disabled by both the grip safety and the thumb blocking the hammer.

The one type of gun that bites you on this is hammerless guns with no grip safety (Glock, etc.) So be extra careful, if the gun doesn't want to go in the holster for some reason, don't keep pushing on it. :p
 
Why not? What's the flaw with it?
For me, it's not that it's flawed but that it's almost pointless.

What would you think of someone who says that he considers Glock's trigger safety to be one of its greatest characteristics? Or that he would never own a 1911 style pistol because it lacks a trigger safety? I have read here on THR where members have stated that the grip safety is one of the 1911's greatest features. I simply do not understand that logic.

For instance, I like Glocks, but honestly, that little trigger safety is practically pointless. Granted, there are probably a few stories out there about how that little safety prevented someone from accidentally pulling the trigger, but realistically, if the sensation of your finger depressing the safety fails to alert you that you are about to pull the trigger, it offers little impediment to a negligent discharge. If a stick, or a piece of clothing, or the retention strap of a holster happens to only apply pressure to the portion of the trigger where the safety is absent, the safety will not be depressed and the trigger will not be allowed to move rearward and fire the pistol.

With the grip safety, *chances are* that if you are foolishly fingering your trigger your hand is wrapped nicely around the grip of your pistol and already depressing and nullifying this wonderful safety feature.

Correia's holstering method does make lots so sense to me though.

I am not a hater of Glocks or 1911s.
 
Re, Legal Issues

If you deliberately shoot a person in self defense, then the lack of any or all safety devices is totally irrelevant. It only becomes relevant if you have an AD or ND, esp. if someone gets hurt. Then the fact that you removed a factory safety may indeed play a role in the decision to bring charges, or in the level of charges to bring.

So it's not something to be done lightly and I'd advise against it. The Star vs. 1911 thumb safety is a good example. By removing the grip safety on a 1911 you don't make it as safe as a Star. You'd have to revamp the thumb safety as well.

Personally, I just wish they made 1911's with the Star style safety.
 
I guess when it comes down to it. IMO If you don't like the grip saftey don't buy a 1911. Buy a Star or a CZ or a Hi-power. Or some other SA auto.
 
Sure, but with all the modifications and updates on the 1911 design going on, it seems like someone should be able to make one that has a Star style safety system for those of us with hands that don't agree with the grip safety.
 
I like the grip safety on my Para-Ordinance Warthog because it provides an extra level of safety in case the manual safety gets inadvertantly disengaged. I used to have a Star .45acp Firestar and on several occations I would check my gun in it's holster and realized that I was carrying a single-action handgun with the safety turned off. COCKED and UNLOCKED!!! SCARY!!!!!!!!!

Heck, not a problem, Glock owners carry THEIRS that way. :p

<Ducking "safe action" bricks>
 
Personally, I just wish they made 1911's with the Star style safety.

"They" did... In Argentina. It was called the Ballester-Molina. It had the Star safety system, but used 1911 barrels, barrel bushings and magazines. You sometime find them on the used market, with attractive prices. They represent an excellent value in an economy .45 pistol.
 
jashobeam: I agree on the matter of Glock's trigger safety, which I once heard referred to as the 'catalytic converter' of Glocks ;-)

The historical reasons for the grip design were driven by battle conditions. This from Kuhnhausen's 1911 manual, vol. II:

"Battle conditions were the main consideration and guiding force behind ordanance adoption of the M1911 grip safety design feature. With either a slide cycled or a cocked and locked pistol, the mechanical requirement of having to depress the thumb safety to off position and then squeeze both the grip safety and the trigger in order to fire the pistol meant that the pistol had to be: (1) in hand; and (2) ready to fire; before (3) it could be fired. Although fools have the uncanny ability to overcome any safety system ever devised, this common sense feature reduced the possibility of accident in the hands of trained combat personnel to virtually zero."
 
Hooray for Fuff and Tuner.
Folks that recognize the Star safety for the superior mechanism that it is.

I've been pointing it out for years. Now somebody else agrees, I just might vapor lock from the shock of it:eek:

Sam
 
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