madwell
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all that aside shotguns just stop everything. it's a fact. just get one or two
Why a Shotgun for Home Defense?
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JImbothefiveth
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If it was a government data-base, wouldn't most of the data involve government agencies, probably using 12-gauge buckshot loads?
A .410 dove load, or even a .410 slug or 12 gauge bird load, will not have a 99% one-shot stop rate.
I think the number even for the best 12 gauge buckshot loads is, I think this was according to Marshal and Sanow, only 95%or so, and birdshot seriously lacks penetration.
If it doesn't stop people as quickly as it should, it's dangerous to the user, but isn't it more humane if the person survives, but is stopped?
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The big debate, to me, is not handgun vs shotgun for HD. You can do both, and both have their place (SG for most use, since it has massively more power, handgun for clearing tight places, because it is smaller). To me, the big debate is SG vs carbine.
As much as I know, intellectually, that the small carbine (es exemplified by a quality m4gery wearing a light and stoked with good ammo) is a better choice, on paper, I know that if something goes bump in the night inside of the house, I'm sorely tempted to grab my stock 870- well, "stock" except for the light. An AR handles quickly. A properly equipped SG handles instinctively. Add in the freight train coming out of the muzzle, and it's an appealing solution to the problem.
Mike
As much as I know, intellectually, that the small carbine (es exemplified by a quality m4gery wearing a light and stoked with good ammo) is a better choice, on paper, I know that if something goes bump in the night inside of the house, I'm sorely tempted to grab my stock 870- well, "stock" except for the light. An AR handles quickly. A properly equipped SG handles instinctively. Add in the freight train coming out of the muzzle, and it's an appealing solution to the problem.
Mike
Dave McCracken
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Jimbo, t'was a database of firefights based on weapons used.
For example, 38 Special revolvers used by all folks showed a one shot stop rate of about 65%. 357 Mag revolvers were about 75%, etc.
As for stopping power of a 410 bird load, I see few volunteering to be the test subject on that one. Even if they get to wear a leather jacket.
For example, 38 Special revolvers used by all folks showed a one shot stop rate of about 65%. 357 Mag revolvers were about 75%, etc.
As for stopping power of a 410 bird load, I see few volunteering to be the test subject on that one. Even if they get to wear a leather jacket.
I'm sure the horse is dead by now...right? ---Oh wait, I think it twitched!
Three reasons
1. Firepower
2. Aural deterrent (sshhhk-shhk)
3. Easy to aim -- or more to the point, difficult to miss
One of the responses caught my eye.
- Can shoot it with one hand, leaving the other free for cellphone/flashlight.
I'd never shoot a pistol one handed; I can't reliable hit the target that way even on a range let alone under duress. You can also mount a flashlight on a shotgun. But you do bring up a good point about the phone call. I guess I'd have my wife call. If that option weren't available,... I guess I'd have to call and be temporarily one handed.
- You can't really answer the door to strangers with a shotgun.
I'm not so worried about the guys who knock.
But if so, why answer the door?
- Shotgun is harder to maneuver around hallways and corners
But easy to sit there and defend the stairs coming up to the bedrooms.
- You get 15+ shots with a pistol
I suspect I only need one with a shotgun.
Even so I have 6 available.
That's 54 .30 pellets.
9 pieces of lead each shot.
And hopefully after they hear that unmistakable sound of racking the slide, they will be gone anyway unless their insane or doped up or something.
And if you run out and somehow the situation isn't resolved, the gun becomes a nice club.
- It's much harder to try and wrestle a pistol away from someone than a shotgun
It's much harder to get to a shotgun holder through the flurry of .30 cal pellets flying at more than 1300 fps out of the muzzle.
- You can keep the pistol in a small handgun safe by your bed, if you have kids. Harder to safely store a shotgun and have it ready to go.
If the guy's in the bedroom, that would be bad, but then again the pistol isn't any more available in that case. But yeah, a handgun safe would be faster. Been meaning to get one some day.
- There are more places to practice with handguns. Both of the ranges near me don't allow buckshot or slugs.
I'd argue I don't need a lot of practice, but nevertheless you want to be entirely proficient with your choice of weapon. I think I'm familiar enough with shotgun to do what's needed (God forbid that day ever comes).
All that said, nothing wrong at all with using a pistol. Use what you're most proficient with and most confident in. I think the shotgun in certain circumstances is a far, far superior weapon to a pistol. But the pistol will handle other situations the shotgun cannot. Now if someone is already in the house and heading up the stairs, yeah I'd much rather have the pistol because I could get to it quicker. If there's enough time to pull off the trigger lock, the shotgun is far preferred.
Shotguns have proven to be devastating and terrifying weapons in wartime in close quarters.
Curious to see what others have said.
Michael
Three reasons
1. Firepower
2. Aural deterrent (sshhhk-shhk)
3. Easy to aim -- or more to the point, difficult to miss
One of the responses caught my eye.
- Can shoot it with one hand, leaving the other free for cellphone/flashlight.
I'd never shoot a pistol one handed; I can't reliable hit the target that way even on a range let alone under duress. You can also mount a flashlight on a shotgun. But you do bring up a good point about the phone call. I guess I'd have my wife call. If that option weren't available,... I guess I'd have to call and be temporarily one handed.
- You can't really answer the door to strangers with a shotgun.
I'm not so worried about the guys who knock.
But if so, why answer the door?
- Shotgun is harder to maneuver around hallways and corners
But easy to sit there and defend the stairs coming up to the bedrooms.
- You get 15+ shots with a pistol
I suspect I only need one with a shotgun.
Even so I have 6 available.
That's 54 .30 pellets.
9 pieces of lead each shot.
And hopefully after they hear that unmistakable sound of racking the slide, they will be gone anyway unless their insane or doped up or something.
And if you run out and somehow the situation isn't resolved, the gun becomes a nice club.
- It's much harder to try and wrestle a pistol away from someone than a shotgun
It's much harder to get to a shotgun holder through the flurry of .30 cal pellets flying at more than 1300 fps out of the muzzle.
- You can keep the pistol in a small handgun safe by your bed, if you have kids. Harder to safely store a shotgun and have it ready to go.
If the guy's in the bedroom, that would be bad, but then again the pistol isn't any more available in that case. But yeah, a handgun safe would be faster. Been meaning to get one some day.
- There are more places to practice with handguns. Both of the ranges near me don't allow buckshot or slugs.
I'd argue I don't need a lot of practice, but nevertheless you want to be entirely proficient with your choice of weapon. I think I'm familiar enough with shotgun to do what's needed (God forbid that day ever comes).
All that said, nothing wrong at all with using a pistol. Use what you're most proficient with and most confident in. I think the shotgun in certain circumstances is a far, far superior weapon to a pistol. But the pistol will handle other situations the shotgun cannot. Now if someone is already in the house and heading up the stairs, yeah I'd much rather have the pistol because I could get to it quicker. If there's enough time to pull off the trigger lock, the shotgun is far preferred.
Shotguns have proven to be devastating and terrifying weapons in wartime in close quarters.
Curious to see what others have said.
Michael
76shuvlinoff
Member
why a shotgun?
... because at hallway ranges a 1oz slug from a 18" barrel is going to ruin someones day even in body armor, after that it's hose down the leftovers with 00.
1911 AND 870 at the bedside because life is about choices.
... because at hallway ranges a 1oz slug from a 18" barrel is going to ruin someones day even in body armor, after that it's hose down the leftovers with 00.
1911 AND 870 at the bedside because life is about choices.
ChemicalArts
Member
+1 for shotgun
I'm a better shot with a shotgun.
Shotguns are generally less expensive.
Shotguns have more power.
If someone is trying to harm me or my family, I don't care about dry wall.
Shotguns are easier to own legally in most jurisdictions.
If I had to defend myself in the courts on use of deadly force, I'd rather have the shotgun as exhibit #1 rather than a handgun. Fair or not, A lot of people are prejudiced against handguns.
All that said, I've got a 357 Magnum, and I practice with it. I'd just rather defend my life with a long gun.
I'm a better shot with a shotgun.
Shotguns are generally less expensive.
Shotguns have more power.
If someone is trying to harm me or my family, I don't care about dry wall.
Shotguns are easier to own legally in most jurisdictions.
If I had to defend myself in the courts on use of deadly force, I'd rather have the shotgun as exhibit #1 rather than a handgun. Fair or not, A lot of people are prejudiced against handguns.
All that said, I've got a 357 Magnum, and I practice with it. I'd just rather defend my life with a long gun.
The person who said that people survive from head shots with bird shot every year ya that is probably true. But.... People also survive from rifle and handgun wounds every year also. i would much rather know that if i see a BG i can aim in the general dirction and know i have a sure hit 
Dirty Bob
Member
I advise you to test your shotgun at home defense distances before making such a claim (or putting it to the test at 3:00 in the morning).
The "aim in the general direction" idea is an urban myth. At HD distances, a pattern of shot is probably going to be about the size of your fist. Shotguns must be aimed in self-defense situations. The big advantages are stopping power and ergonomics, not an ability to hit without aiming.
Try it yourself! Know thy shotgun!
Stay safe,
Dirty Bob
"Aim in the general direction" is probably hyperbole.
But... I think most folks are going to be more proficient at hitting what they're aiming for with a shotgun.
With the pistol you have a very short sight radius and the weapon is only anchored by the hands/arms. Trigger control and grip control are crucial. Get those wrong or hands shaking and it becomes hard hitting a target 20' away.
A rifle with iron sights would be (for me at least) hard to acquire a sight picture with. Maybe with a red dot scope or something. With the right sighting mechanism at short distances I bet it wouldn't be too awful hard to hit what you need to because the rifle is somewhat steadied with stock against shoulder.
Likewise, shotgun is anchored to shoulder (well, mine is -- I wouldn't select a pistol grip tho some do). But the aiming is easier. Put the bead on what you want to shoot, slap the trigger. The original point and click interface. I think trigger pull isn't as critical. There's no issue of lining up sights. Grip doesn't have a major impact on shot placement. The grouping makes up for quite a bit of error (a fist sized group is much, much larger than a single bullet). It's just harder to screw up the shot than with other weapons. At least that's been my experience.
Michael
But... I think most folks are going to be more proficient at hitting what they're aiming for with a shotgun.
With the pistol you have a very short sight radius and the weapon is only anchored by the hands/arms. Trigger control and grip control are crucial. Get those wrong or hands shaking and it becomes hard hitting a target 20' away.
A rifle with iron sights would be (for me at least) hard to acquire a sight picture with. Maybe with a red dot scope or something. With the right sighting mechanism at short distances I bet it wouldn't be too awful hard to hit what you need to because the rifle is somewhat steadied with stock against shoulder.
Likewise, shotgun is anchored to shoulder (well, mine is -- I wouldn't select a pistol grip tho some do). But the aiming is easier. Put the bead on what you want to shoot, slap the trigger. The original point and click interface. I think trigger pull isn't as critical. There's no issue of lining up sights. Grip doesn't have a major impact on shot placement. The grouping makes up for quite a bit of error (a fist sized group is much, much larger than a single bullet). It's just harder to screw up the shot than with other weapons. At least that's been my experience.
Michael
fireman 9731
Member
+1 for the compromise
mr.natural
Member
870 wingmaster with 18" barrel...
#4 buckshot comes out first and the rest is #1 buckshot....
The BG isnt gonna feel real good...
#4 buckshot comes out first and the rest is #1 buckshot....
The BG isnt gonna feel real good...
inSight-NEO
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Superior stopping power vs a handgun. Ill explain my statement.
In an HD situation, its not necessarily about simply killing, but stopping. Can you stop someone in their tracks with a powerful handgun round? Sure can. But, too many horror stories exist about people taking MANY handgun rounds and continuing to stay in the fight. The shotgun, speaking in this case of typical HD ranges using Buckshot, is far more likely to stop them where they stand. Plus, there is always the aiming factor. The HD shotgun does not seem to require nearly the same "accuracy" vs a handgun, particularly when dealing with all the potential stressors surrounding a home invasion. There are always exceptions, of course. And the shotgun certainly has a few drawbacks, mainly concerning mobility and the obvious handling characteristics necessary with any long gun. Plus, Im sure its a bit easier to disarm someone bearing a shotgun vs a handgun. But, these negatives aside, it never hurts to tip the odds in your favor. The shotgun does this quite effectively.
In an HD situation, its not necessarily about simply killing, but stopping. Can you stop someone in their tracks with a powerful handgun round? Sure can. But, too many horror stories exist about people taking MANY handgun rounds and continuing to stay in the fight. The shotgun, speaking in this case of typical HD ranges using Buckshot, is far more likely to stop them where they stand. Plus, there is always the aiming factor. The HD shotgun does not seem to require nearly the same "accuracy" vs a handgun, particularly when dealing with all the potential stressors surrounding a home invasion. There are always exceptions, of course. And the shotgun certainly has a few drawbacks, mainly concerning mobility and the obvious handling characteristics necessary with any long gun. Plus, Im sure its a bit easier to disarm someone bearing a shotgun vs a handgun. But, these negatives aside, it never hurts to tip the odds in your favor. The shotgun does this quite effectively.
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inSight-NEO
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+1 on keeping a powerful handgun around...just in case.
Here is a practical example of handgun vs shotgun. Ignoring the litany of mistakes he made, if the clerk had a handgun I think he could have shot the robber instead of almost being killed with his own weapon.
http://cjonline.com/stories/121508/bre_gunfire.shtml
http://cjonline.com/stories/121508/bre_gunfire.shtml
inSight-NEO
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Guess thats a 50/50 toss. At that range he would have had to resort to point shooting at best. Unless he has practiced this technique or was in the necessary state of mind, he may have been way off the mark anyway. Frankly, I think this guy is very lucky that the would-be robber was only using a BB gun. Going for any gun when you have one trained on YOU, particularly given the obvious short range of this encounter, is one helluva gamble regardless of what you put in your hands. Again, this guy is very lucky and showed utter complacency by not keeping that door locked at all times.
But, it does indeed illustrate one of the downsides of using a shotgun for HD or personal defense. Thats why I feel its wise to keep the safety on until the last possible moment. Hopefully, if the shotgun is taken from you, by the time your assailant figures out the safety mechanism you will have been given the chance to take the gun back. Who knows.....
Agreed.. However, using a weapon (shotgun) that creates an impact point the size of a fist sure beats one the size of a dime or smaller (handgun)! Aiming or not, it does increase the odds in your favor. Plus, there isnt always time for "aiming", as shown in the previous article/video. This would go double or more when talking about "deadly" accurate aiming. But, again, I agree that believing a shotgun (HD situation) requires no aiming is a mis-conception.
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chuckusaret
member
I did some shot pattern test yesterday> at 10 feet #6 to # 8 shot pattern averages 3 to 5 inches and penatrates up to 1 to 1 1/2 inches into a 2 X 10. That will stop the average guy. The 00 buck and the slugs had total penatration. I still load my gun with first a BB followed by six 00 buck followed by a rifled slug.
chuckusaret
member
If a home invader hears the homeowner rack a shotgun and he continues,
he is either brave, stupid or armed and deserves to be shot.
he is either brave, stupid or armed and deserves to be shot.
mljdeckard
Member
Just picked up two new boxes of #4 at Sportsman's Warehouse. MAN, I've never seen them so cleaned out of EVERYTHING.
DAVIDSDIVAD
member
- I don't know if it's my huge hands, but I can hold a flashlight while pumping.
-I answer the door with the right half of my body behind the door all the time.
- Again, maybe because of my size, but I maneuver just fine around my apartment.
Just as well as I do with a pistol in my stretched out arms.
-I get 9 shots that are exponentially more powerful.
- good point, I have no kids
- really? My range lets me go nuts with buckshot.
All those points being made, Mr. 1911 is still there on the nightstand.
MCgunner
Member
Tactics. In my bedroom, I will grab the shotgun and wait for the BG to break the door in. It's called the "safe room tactic" by some. If I have to leave the room, let's say, for some reason I can't get my cell phone to dial 911, I'll grab the snubby .38. It's better for ear biting distances, harder to grab by the BG, I can stuff it in his mouth and pull the trigger. 158 grain +P JHP in the mouth should work.
TigerXJ
Member
this isn't exactly accurate. I'm in my second year of medical school, and we had some pathology lectures, one of which was on gunshot wounds. Inside of 5-10 yards, birdshot (or any size shot) acts more like like a slug. That is, it stays farely close together rather than spreading. Of course the distance changes a bit based on whether your barrel is fully choked or fully open. At the distances seen in home defense, it might be ok, but not the first choice. I think the largest possible distance I can shoot in my home is about 15 yards.
Also, someone else mentioned that buckshot doesn't penetrate walls that well. I'd beg to differ, and wouldn't want to find out I was wrong when I shoot through a wall. Next time you go to the range, put two patches of drywall together with some insulation between, and shoot from a few yards back. report back if it penetrated both sheets of walling.
My shotgun has a flashlight on it for this reason.
Sure you can. You can even make sure they don't see it, if you're inclined to be neighborly.
True, if the area is particularly tight. However, of you practice with it, you'd be surprised what you can do with proper technique. When I do building searches, I don't leave my M16 or shotgun in the cruiser.
True, but the 4-6 shots you get with a shotgun are more likely to result in immediate stops, and topping off is not difficult.
With proper technique, both should be very hard.
Harder, but not all that hard.
Possibly true, but this doesn't apply to everyone, of course.
Just having a shotgun does not preclude also having a handgun. You can have a shotgun in a rack in the closet and a handgun in a safe by the bed. If you have time to get to the shotty, great. If not, the handgun is readily available. If you need or want to go houseclearing, you should probably take a moment to put on your pants. If you're doing that, you can easily have a holster on your belt with no additional prep (just leave the belt looped through the pants and the empty holster on the belt). Put your handgun in the holster, grab your shotgun or carbine with a sling and go check out what just went bump. If you encounter a tight area you want to clear, sling the long gun and transition to pistol.
In truth, after you've done it a few times, you can probably clear your whole house pretty adequately with a long gun.
Mike
This can go on forever. I think everyone will thrown in their 2 cents and it will make sense. The answer will vary on a lot of things such as, if you have kids or a family. If they live in a single or two story house. If the house is huge. If the family is in one part of the house and not the other. What kind of neighborhood do you live in to answer the door with a gun.......
What works for you, may not work for some.
I have both a shotgun (8+1) 00 buckshot, and a .45 (10+1) ready. I don't have kids to worry about.
As for manuvering with a shotgun, I don't know about you, but if there are BGs in my house, I'm not coming out of my bedroom until I have to.
As for target load, I don't live in a palace and the longest distance I have to shoot is like 10 yards. If I used target load and that doesn't stop him, it will stun him, then I'll shoot him again and again if necessary (see above 8+1 in shotty).
As for holes in the wall or furniture...better than holes in me.
As for holding other things like cell phone or flashlight, my shotty has a flashlight on it and the cell phone, i wouldn't be holding it. Just dial 911, set it down and starting yelling into it.
Hopefully, I can tell dispatch to cancel the code 3 and send the coroner and a cleaning crew.
Just my 2 cents. Wait times are tight, give me a cent back.
What works for you, may not work for some.
I have both a shotgun (8+1) 00 buckshot, and a .45 (10+1) ready. I don't have kids to worry about.
As for manuvering with a shotgun, I don't know about you, but if there are BGs in my house, I'm not coming out of my bedroom until I have to.
As for target load, I don't live in a palace and the longest distance I have to shoot is like 10 yards. If I used target load and that doesn't stop him, it will stun him, then I'll shoot him again and again if necessary (see above 8+1 in shotty).
As for holes in the wall or furniture...better than holes in me.
As for holding other things like cell phone or flashlight, my shotty has a flashlight on it and the cell phone, i wouldn't be holding it. Just dial 911, set it down and starting yelling into it.
Hopefully, I can tell dispatch to cancel the code 3 and send the coroner and a cleaning crew.
Just my 2 cents. Wait times are tight, give me a cent back.
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