Why are .38 wadcutters not considered a good carry load?

[newbuckeye]

I know one thing, I wouldn't want to get shot with a wc......

 

[Prosser]

But again, I have to ask, if the slow wadcutter penetrates more than the FBI standard, does the velocity and energy matter? It may not seem to hit very hard but it punches a deep-enough hole while retaining its shape and mass, with the major benefit of very little recoil. Even if a 1000-1200 fps bullet makes a significantly larger wound channel (and it might) you are not gonna get there with any controllable load out of a .38 snub.

Bunch of assumptions there I don't much like. The ONLY time a .38 wadcutter is uncontrollable, at least for me, out of a snub is if the gun is a 12-15 oz scandium, and even then, I'd argue. Buffalobore makes a 158 grain LHC, .38 special plus P, that goes 1040 fps out of a 1.8" snub. In a 12 oz scandium, it's the most recoil I can handle. Out of a Model 60 snub, it's a pussy cat. Double the weight of the gun, and, you half the recoil SPEED, and that's what kills with the little guns.

My carry load for my 360PD is the Fioochi .357 magnum, a 148 grain bullet, at 1131 fps, out of my gun. That could be a wadcutter, and, at self-defense distances, it would make a GREAT round.

The benefit of the 148gr wadcutter is it's lower recoil - and that makes it adaptable to the recoil shy, being they a small women - or a large, elderly, and arthritic guy. It cuts a clean .357" hole for more rapid exsanguination.

Me - I still load my 642 and 2 5/8" PC627 UDR alike - with +P 158gr LSWCHP's... but, when the day comes that I cannot handle them, I'll reach for the wadcutters. Interesting thread!

Have to agree with this comment, Stainz, and, the loads.

 

[Japle]

Well, this has been an interesting thread. I must admit that I’m amazed at the criteria some folks use to choose their SD ammo.

Personally, I wouldn’t use anything less powerful than .38 Spl +P or 9mm +P for my main gun plus a .380 backup loaded with JHPs.

For anyone who has the strength and skill to handle a full-power handgun, loading up with target ammo is, in my very strong opinion, just plain foolish. It’s like entering a tree felling contest with a Cub Scout hatchet.

But people will do what they will do. My sister runs her life based on Astrology. Nothing I can say will convince her she’s following a false trail, and it’s the same here.

Stay safe.

 

[mrmeangenes]

I have serious doubts about this statement:

"Most importantly, they penetrate to about 20" in gelatin, exceeding the FBI standard."

Most "target wadcutters" I've seen are great for punching a "caliber size hole" in paper without offering much in the way of penetration. (Could that have been 2.0 " in gelatin ?)

They are low in recoil-which might help if you wanted to put a lot of lead into an assailant-a la Ed Mc Givern.

Elmer Keith's vaunted "semi-wadcatter" was more truncated cone than wadcutter-and it would penetrate rather briskly, when pushed out the muzzle by rather stout,hard-kicking powder charges.

 

[Gary A]

Prosser, you stated,

There is a huge difference between a .38 wadcutter at 600-700 fps and 1000-1200 fps, in wound channel diameter, and effect on target.

Of course, that's true, but it's a false comparison. A .38 148 gr wadcutter at 600-700 fps is better compared to an average of plus P .38 special ammo which from the same two inch barrel is more likely to be going between 780-825 fps and around or a little over 900 fps depending on whether it is a 158 grain bullet or a 125-135 grain bullet. I don't think any comparable weight .38 special +P will be traveling at 1000-1200 fps from the same snubby barrel. Perhaps a 110 grain bullet will reach or exceed 1000 fps but then you're comparing a light bullet to a heavy one. In comparable weights, the difference is not nearly what you imply unless you want to compare a .38 wadcutter to a .357 magnum. Hardly a useful comparison.

I should note that you do reference Buffalo Bore but it is not really available in enough quantity to enough people to be a fair comparison either, compared to off-the-shelf +P ammo from various manufacturers. And, not everyone shares the internet enthusiasm for Buffalo Bore. If the universe has suddenly started supplying a "free lunch", I haven't heard about it. 'Nuff said about that.

 

[Kendal Black]

I think target wadcutters are a fine choice if you have a gun that might not stand up to +P cartridges. They are quite mild. Someone posted this link yet? Ballistic gel test from Brass fetcher. (Thanks, JE223.) http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=242348

 

[Prosser]

Prosser, you stated,
Quote:
There is a huge difference between a .38 wadcutter at 600-700 fps and 1000-1200 fps, in wound channel diameter, and effect on target.
Of course, that's true, but it's a false comparison. A .38 148 gr wadcutter at 600-700 fps is better compared to an average of plus P .38 special ammo which from the same two inch barrel is more likely to be going between 780-825 fps and around or a little over 900 fps depending on whether it is a 158 grain bullet or a 125-135 grain bullet. I don't think any comparable weight .38 special +P will be traveling at 1000-1200 fps from the same snubby barrel. Perhaps a 110 grain bullet will reach or exceed 1000 fps but then you're comparing a light bullet to a heavy one. In comparable weights, the difference is not nearly what you imply unless you want to compare a .38 wadcutter to a .357 magnum. Hardly a useful comparison.

I should note that you do reference Buffalo Bore but it is not really available in enough quantity to enough people to be a fair comparison either, compared to off-the-shelf +P ammo from various manufacturers. And, not everyone shares the internet enthusiasm for Buffalo Bore. If the universe has suddenly started supplying a "free lunch", I haven't heard about it. 'Nuff said about that.
__________________

Gary: My post is NOT conjecture. I used a chronograph, represented my experience and velocities out of MY 360PD. Buffalobore's 158 grain LSHC
went 1040 fps out of my gun, and that is not conjecture. Many people do end up with either .38 Special plus P in their lightweight .357's. There is pretty much little reason to think the .38 Special, of properly loaded, can't be right on the heals of, or faster, then a .357 magnum. Since the 360PD is rated for .357, if you seat the bullet out, you can easily get the same powder capacity in a .38 case as a .357. OAL is the same, as is the cylinder length.

Oddly, the heavier bullets, in that long case, with proper powder selection, can be as fast as the lighter bullets, or darn close.

From my 360PD:
Fioochi 357 magnum 148 grain, jhc, 1131 fps
BBore .38 Special Plus P, 158 grain lhc, 1040 fps
and
Corbon 125 grain HP, .357, 1204 fps.

One positive point that has been missed is lead bullets are more effective, usually going faster, then a jacketed bullet, with the same powder charge.

Ballisticsbytheinch might be a very good place to look at what factory loads favor shorter barrels.

 

[Gary A]

Prosser, I didn't say (or think) your post was conjecture but still would argue that Buffalo Bore is not readily available to most buyers at most times in most places and is not as fair a comparison to wadcutters as other off-the-shelf plus P .38 loads that are readily available. Secondly, I would note that two of the "pros" of wadcutters mentioned by the orignal poster were

They have very low recoil, which is very important in a snub revolver. (AND) They are cheap, so one can practice with the same load that one carries.

Buffalo Bore, I would submit, fails to match either of those positive qualities therefore is not readily comparable to the wadcutters mentioned in the original post.

I ain't slammin' Buffalo Bore, just saying it's a different animal. Might as well be another caliber (think .357, to which you compare BB). I just can't believe one can get that kind of performance without higher pressure or higher recoil or both. It ain't magic. But then, I've been wrong before...(shrug).

BTW, I use neither wadcutters or Buffalo Bore, not that it matters.

 

[Prosser]

Gary:
Buffalobore usually is a mouse click and UPS away, as most ammo is these days.

Ammunition does not recoil. The combination of firearm weight, firearm design, and the ammunition determine recoil.

Snubs go from my 12 oz 360PD to this beast:

or this:


Any .38 in either of the above would be the equal of most 22lr recoil, in normal guns, if that.

Tim Sundles uses commercial powders us common folk can't buy. You are right, in the sense that if you use a fast burning powder, the sudden jolt, vs. a longer push, created by a slower powder means one round may recoil
perception be higher then the other.

The failing of Buffalobore is the price, meaning less practice to get used to the recoil.

My issue is that a load for a wadcutter can go from 500 fps to 1100 fps, depending upon the load, bullet weight, and powder type and charge.

 

[Gary A]

Prosser, you make good points, certainly. And you have a fascinating collection of snubs. I'm still not going to use BB in my 37-2 , but perhaps in my SP101 I'll give it a try. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on an interesting topic. Gary

 

[woad_yurt]

It seems that many who've posted aren't distinguishing between target wadcutter loads and more powerful, home-made wadcutter loadings.

Why is it that .38 SPL 158 gr semi-wadcutters are almost universally considered an acceptable choice for self-defense while wadcutters loaded to similar velocities are not? I just can't see or understand the reasoning behind it.

My 148 gr wadcutter load going at a very conservative 850 FPS from a 4" K-frame develops a true 237+ ft lbs. CCI Blazer 125 gr +P hollowpoint stuff is rated at 940 FPS/245 ft lbs while Fiocchi and Federal muzzle energy figures for hollowpoint +P stuff is all also in the 250 ft lbs or less area. Considering that these figures were gotten using standard, unvented 7" test barrels and not a 4" S&W K-frame, I'll stick with my wadcutter load.

Note:
I'm comparing mine to the general offerings by large ammo makers, not to any of the moose-killer loads sold by folks like Buffalo Bore or Double Tap. Those are another story entirely.

 

[OldCavSoldier]

+1 Snooperman: I like the plated 148 gr WC pushed by 4.3 grains of Unique and lit off by a standard CCI primer....easy recoil, fast enough to do the job, adequate penetration

 

[Prosser]

Thanks Gary. For the record, the only snub I have is a 360PD. I do like shroud length heavy revolvers, and have a number of them.

The other guns are customs for guys by Jack Huntington Advanced Gunsmithing.
I was in the shop, and took the pictures. The one I've shot is this one:



It went 950 fps with a 440 grain cast, and around 1250 fps with a 430 grain cast lfn, in .500JRH, a shortened 500 S&W.

Recoil was NOT a problem. The gun is HEAVY.

The top gun is a 50-110, which is WAY too much. The next gun maybe owned by SharplyDressedMan, but with different grips now.

Another fun one was what SK had commissioned after the 50-110:
A very light, custom .500JRH. Think it weighed 35 oz:




This gun is known as Hellboy. Heck of a compact hog gun with 440 grain bullets at 950 fps. All of these are in the near 2000 dollar or more range, and, pretty much one guy has them done, shows them to his friends, they buy them, and he trys something else.

My point in this is the wadcutter can be a GREAT self-defense load in a snub,
and, it's gunweight that determines recoil. A .50 Caliber Ma Duece doesn't recoil much at all, when it's connected to an Abrahms tank.

By the way: when the bullets get over 350 grains, they provide enough resistance so the velocity loss is minimal, out of a short barrel, because the powder, even a fairly slow powder, will burn completely with the bullet providing resistance.

I recently had some .475 Linebaugh loaded for my FA 83. 275 grain HPs went 1560 fps, with a light load, read bottom of the loading table. 325 grain flat points went 1475 or there abouts, but the reduction in noise and blast was huge. The powder, same powder, near the same charge, was burning in the gun, not making it out the barrel.
So, you can get a 440 grain bullet going 950 fps out of a 2" barrel, when that is the spec for the round. Adding barrel length will NOT increase velocity.

 

[snooperman]

Thanks, OldCavSoldier..

where are you getting your plated wadcutters from? I have been shooting that load with lead 148gr and 158 gr semiwadcutters for many years. I also like 3.5 gr bullseye for comfort and quick followup shots as well.

 

[CoastieShep]

Snoop

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=1050153227

 

[snooperman]

Thanks, CoastieShep...

I am going to order some soon, as clean-up time will be much faster, and the way they are made by Ranier , much more accurate as well at the longer ranges.