Why are M4rgeries so popular?

[trueblue1776]

I like to make little race courses in the woods, my "M4" with a mini Y is a good race gun for my little hobby.

Whether it is a bad copy of a military gun or an awesome little carbine is all just a bit of opinion.

 

[ArmedBear]

Nobody's saying that anyone shouldn't have one, or that there's a thing in the world wrong with a fun gun of any sort.

The question was, "Why are they so popular?"

If everyone suddenly wanted to make sure they had a gun for HD, there would be a run on 4" 686+ revolvers for convenience and 18.5" 870s for stopping power (or whatever you want to call it if you don't believe in it: 00 Buck at close range will stop an attack faster than a little bullet, or a big bullet, fast or slow, with less reliance on shot placement).

So the answer must be something else.

Again, there's nothing wrong with that.

My only point about .44 or .357 or whatever, for 000Buck or anyone else who doesn't "get it" is that nobody's choosing .223 because it's the best round for HD. That doesn't mean I want to be hit with one; it does mean that someone who is honestly looking specifically for home defense is unlikely to choose a small-caliber rifle. High velocity, long range, and critical shot placement are not ideal characteristics if that's really what you're looking for.

So the answer must be something other than simply "people are buying them for home defense."

 

[taliv]

it does mean that someone who is honestly looking specifically for home defense is unlikely to choose a small-caliber rifle.

So the answer must be something other than simply "people are buying them for home defense."

on the contrary, the AR15 in m4gery config is ideal for home defense. I know plenty of people who use them for HD. Perhaps a pistol might make sense in California, but in most of the country, small-caliber rifles are perfect.

 

[raubritter]

I'd rather have this one:
http://www.olyarms.com/?rootView=browse&view=dtl&ids=PP-20

 

[ArmedBear]

I know plenty of people who use them for HD.

Do you know anyone who has actually used it for HD?

What does California have to do with whether a small-caliber long gun is a good choice for HD? We can get other guns with detachable mags and similar specs. They're not good choices, either. It's as easy for a BG to grab a 3 foot long gun indoors, in every state, and it's just as hard to keep one in a drawer or holster.

Maybe in other places, people consider a 100-yard shot to be home defense? Recent court cases cited here suggest otherwise...

And while some people who might have to defend their homes do practice for a protracted firefight with multiple intruders, most people don't. They still buy M4geries.

 

[JonB]

.223 for HD? No way. I would rather have my Benelli 12ga for HD - less chance of over penetration, don't really have to aim it (just point), and nothing better than the sounds of a 12ga being racked to make a bad guy think twice.
Anyway, I am not sure of the reason behind the M4 fad either. I suspect it is to have what the reasl soldiers have - or rather something close to it. I personally went with a 16" midlength. Still short and handy, but I think the short hand guards look silly.

 

[000Buck]

You are right, I dont get it. I didnt know 357 and 44 mag were so much better at close range than 223 against a human, not a bear, but a human. You are telling us that a .357 or .429 hole is better than a .22 hole? Well did you know that 223 fragments at close range?

I'll agree with the buck shot argument, but some women have a problem firing a 12 guage or a magnum handgun, so sometimes a 223 is a good comprimise...even though it isnt a comprimise really.

And the original poster wasnt really asking a question, he was just telling us his opinion but disguised it as a question. This happens everyday on forums all over the place. Another popular opinion hidden as a question is why are 14.5" barrels so popular??? With 16" being available, 14.5 is for idiots is the common "question"

I could start two opinion question things myself. Why would anyone want a dissipator, you could buy a midlength and have the gas system lengthened that gives longer life and supposedly better reliability.

Why would anyone want an 11.5" barrel with a 5.5" flash suppressor? You lose all that velocity.

But I dont want to start threads just to make myself feel smarter than everyone else.

 

[000Buck]

regarding 12ga...

don't really have to aim it (just point)

You should go shoot a target at 15 feet and you will probably change your mind on that one.

 

[taliv]

Do you know anyone who has actually used it for HD?

not sure why that's relevant, if by used you mean "shot someone". I mentioned cali because none of the guns i see labeled "california legal" bear any resemblance to AR15s.

i can't recall anyone personally who has shot someone in their home with their pistol either, although I can think of 3 people i talk to regularly who have shot themselves with their pistol (one as recently as 2 weeks ago), but i don't know anyone who has shot themselves with a rifle.


here's an excerpt from an article by Clint Smith on Home Defense:

Firearms for Home Defense Handguns

Handguns are simply not the best choice of weapons to fight with. They are in fact convenient for concealed carry purposes in the public domain. They can win a fight if used effectively, but should not be considered the optimum choice, period. In the home they add a degree of portability, but with this added mobility also comes a degree of lacking. The process is a no-brainer: The less effective the tool is, the more likely it will have to be shot multiple times to resolve the issue at hand. The more you shoot, the more likely something will go wrong--sort of like fighting bees--one bee, maybe one sting, tour bees ... You get the point.

<snip the part about shotguns>

Rifles

All things considered rifles are the way to fight if you must. They are powerful and will shoot though people and walls, so your weapons selection may need to take into consideration where and how you live. Split-level homes or residences where other family members are often at the other end of the living area will require a thoughtful shooter before launching .308 ball rounds down the length of the home should there be a fight. All of the high-speed magazine-fed rifles are OK with me although, all things considered and in perspective, I personally would rather not get shot by .30-30 from a 94 Winchester ... personally. A local young mother here recently shot an intruder with a Model 70 in .30-06. It worked.

here's another interesting quote:

"Over 80 percent of people shot with pistol rounds survive the incident. Less than 20 percent of those shot with rifle rounds survive."

James McKee
Author
The Book of Two Guns

i'm not really interested in whether you or anyone else chooses to use a pistol or a rifle. I'm certainly not much interested in arguing about it. The point was simply that there are plenty of knowledgeable and reasonable people who prefer one or the other for a variety of reasons.

Acting as if the AR15 is not appropriate for HD is ignorant and does a disservice to new readers.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

RockyMtnTactical, et al., why in hell would I choose to use a 300 yard prairie dog round for in-home defense against a 200 lb. man at 50 feet or less?

The military has its reasons for using .223, but they aren't really good reasons in my condo.

Sure there are. This is why many LE agencies are dropping their pistol caliber carbines, because the .223 is better every way you look at it.

FWIW, .223 is an excellent man stopper, esspecially when compared to most pistol calibers, even .357's, etc...

Re comparisons with a .357 for home defense, a .223 from a 16" barrel also has more muzzle energy than a .44 Magnum revolver. I'll bet that if you asked 10 seasons Alaskan guides which one they'd rather have for bear defense, 11 out of the 10 would laugh their asses off at the notion of carrying a .223 as a "stopper."

Apples and oranges. I don't anticipate my home being broke into by Grizzly or polar bears... Even if my home were broken into by a black bear (which are somewhat common in my area), I would have no problem with my M4gery's... or against any other predator in my area for that matter (not that I think a break in by wildlife predators are likely).

M4geries are also popular in California, where laws restricting detachable magazines on PG-equipped semiautos make them dubious defensive firearms.

Nobody's buying these $1000 toys for home defense.

Nobody? You're wrong. I did. Almost everyone I know has bought one for a potential need to use it to defend their homes... however unlikely, that is why they bought it, or at least one of many reasons...

I happen to use my M4's for hunting, plinking, training, shooting, but the number one reason I own one is for defense of my life and liberty... however unlikely you think that is...

Face it: the M4gery is popular because it was banned from new civilian production for 10 years, and the use of the M4 in Iraq made people want a lookalike gun. The market is not being driven by home defense.

I am sure that some people have them for those reasons... but you could say the same thing for people who own M16 lookalikes, or AK-47's, or any other military style weapon...

But I think you underestimate the intelligence and preparedness of many people who own these guns...

I have a .223 semiauto carbine and parts that will become a couple more, but I perceive them as world-class plinkers and cheap centerfire long-range paper punchers, not HD guns.

Good for you. That is your right, but you should assume that everyone else just wants to have one to "look cool" just because that's why you bought one.

Sure, if I had one handy and I was being attacked in my home, I would use the M4gery rather than a flyswatter, though I'd prefer a gun that would stop an intruder and maybe fly less distance if I missed a shot. I don't keep my Mini-14 loaded, any more than I keep my 10/22 loaded. What I keep loaded is a 9mm or a .357. They have the added benefits of being easily locked up in a small quick-access safe.

Interesting that you trust the weak power and inaccuracy of a 9mm and a .357 over the better power and accuracy of an M4.

Let's be realistic here. Missing your target and hitting an innocent bystander is an issue to consider. With this in mind, you're far better off using something that you will likely be more accurate with... like, say an M4 instead of a GP-100.

If you hit your target, your chances of injuring or killing another human being are far less. Not to mention that when .223 rounds pass through dry wall they lose that critical velocity that would have let it fragment and cause more damage...

So, if you miss with a .223, you do less potential damage, and if you hit with a .223 (which is more likely with a more accurate weapon like the M4) you will do more damage...

Not to mention you have a tactical advantage of more rounds and faster, more accurate shooting, assuming you are using 20-30 round mags... useful for defending against multiple attackers.

When you are fighting for you life, you should take any and every advantage you can when you can...

I'm not trying to be a jerk, but seriously, I think people are buying them mostly because they're formerly forbidden fruit, they resemble what the army's using, they're fun toys, and they are (relatively) cheap to shoot. Nothing wrong with a fun gun.

No, there's not... and I am sure some of that comes into play, I don't doubt it... but those are secondary concerns to me...

 

[Frog48]

Because they're fun.

 

[ArmedBear]

RMT-

You bought a 10-round fixed magazine M4gery for self defense? Really? That's what I wrote about, and that's what's in that picture. A $1000 fixed magazine Bushmaster made for the CA market.

I think you underestimate the intelligence and preparedness of many people who own these guns...

I think you haven't done a lot of repairs at ranges or ever been to a gun show. Never did I say that there aren't smart, well-prepared people who shoot the things. However, there are plenty of people who can't hit the broad side of a barn who buy them. I have known one or two myself... They should be practicing with a .22 first, but that's not as cool as missing the paper with an M4. I never said you're one of them. Nor did I say I wouldn't load up a few guns of various sorts, if defense of liberty becomes an issue.

weak power and inaccuracy of a 9mm and a .357

LOL

Now maybe you can't hit anything at 15 feet or less with a handgun, but I can. And the belief that a .357 is an ineffective defensive round is laughable to say the least, contradicted by real-world data. And in the scenario I'm likely to face inside my home, a handgun will be FAR more useful to me, because I will be able to grab and shoot it more effectively.

So, if you miss with a .223, you do less potential damage, and if you hit with a .223 (which is more likely with a more accurate weapon like the M4) you will do more damage...

LOL

Which is it? Slows WAY down when it hits something like drywall, but outperforms a big slug if it actually hits a person?

And you ignore issues of sight plane, which are pretty significant at in-home ranges. The gun isn't so accurate if you miss by a few inches even when you're dead-on. How is that better than a handgun, again?

those are secondary concerns to me...

I'm sure they are. To you.

And I bought my Jeep to go in the dirt.

Last I read about it, 15% of Jeeps are ever driven off-road. And Jeep had the highest ranking of any manufacturer of 4x4's.

We WERE talking about what makes the things so popular -- not just among serious shooters, not among carbine competitors, and not the AR-15 platform, not 16" AR's in general, but m4geries which are specifically designed to resemble Army-issue guns.

Because they're fun.

Exactly. And there's NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

 

[000Buck]

OK, so we have two opinions here:

One group says they are popular because lots of people want to pretend they are playing war.

The other group says they are good at killing people, very handy around the house and easy to shoot, so they are a good HD gun.

Anyone have a third idea? Almost forty posts and there are two things being said.

Maybe Michael Moore could do a movie on the M4.

 

[KC&97TA]

Why So Popular?

1. They're considered a "sexy gun",
2. Practical & Tactical, light, short, 30 round + mag capacity, light recoil, many options to tailor the rifle to the person, many accesories on the market from dirt cheap to Mil Spec and expensive.
3. Can be used to hunt medium game, Can be used to plink, Can be used for HD. Accuracy from 0-600 yards on Iron sights, can be pushed to 800+ yards on optics and ammo.
4. Many training locations and techniques, ie; US Military, Gun Sight, On Sight, Front Sight, FBI, Police, Swat
5. Highly Dependable, build in forward assist, all the bugs are gone!
6. Can be made ambidextrous try that with an AK!
7. Ammo isn't too expenive, $5 for 20 rounds of WWB

I could probly go on and on...

FWIW: The US Marine Corps has a message out saying that the M4 will replace the M9 as T/O Weapon to all Staff NCO and Officers, as available. The Unit I'm with, currently has only M4's, the only long guns are M40A3's, M21's, XM3's and SR25's.

 

[RockyMtnTactical]

You bought a 10-round fixed magazine M4gery for self defense? Really? That's what I wrote about, and that's what's in that picture. A $1000 fixed magazine Bushmaster made for the CA market.

When did I say that I bought a 10-round fixed mag M4gery? I don't recall writing that...

I wouldn't live in CA with their gun laws, but if I did, sure I would own a 10 round fixed mag AR. I wouldn't be able to own a handgun with more capacity than that, would I?

I think you haven't done a lot of repairs at ranges or ever been to a gun show. Never did I say that there aren't smart, well-prepared people who shoot the things. However, there are plenty of people who can't hit the broad side of a barn who buy them. I have known one or two myself... They should be practicing with a .22 first, but that's not as cool as missing the paper with an M4. I never said you're one of them. Nor did I say I wouldn't load up a few guns of various sorts, if defense of liberty becomes an issue.

I am a dealer. I sell AR parts to lots of people. I'd say that most people buy them for a self defense rifle, first and foremost.

Now maybe you can't hit anything at 15 feet or less with a handgun, but I can. And the belief that a .357 is an ineffective defensive round is laughable to say the least, contradicted by real-world data. And in the scenario I'm likely to face inside my home, a handgun will be FAR more useful to me, because I will be able to grab and shoot it more effectively.

I would say that I am above average with a pistol, compared to most. With a rifle, I am probably about average or slightly below average (among people in my skill level who train with and shoot AR15's on a regular basis). That said, rifles are easier to be accurate with when compared to pistols. And as good as I am with a pistol, I will be more accurate with a rifle, just because it's easier to be accurate with rifles...

As for the .357 being ineffective, I never said that (you did). Relatively speaking though, it is a step down from a .223, even in a longer 6" barrel...

Which is it? Fragments when it hits something like drywall, but outperforms a big slug if it actually hits a person?

And you ignore issues of sight plane, which are pretty significant at in-home ranges. The gun isn't so accurate if you miss by a few inches even when you're dead-on. How is that better than a handgun, again?

It won't fragment when it hits drywall, only if it hits soft tissue. If it hits drywall, it will likely slow down under the frag threshold, which will make it less harmful to innocent bystanders though.

You can site in your rifle for 15 yards, you know that right?

I'm sure they are. To you.

And I bought my Jeep to go in the dirt.

Last I read about it, 15% of Jeeps are ever driven off-road. And Jeep had the highest ranking of any manufacturer of 4x4's.

We WERE talking about what makes the things so popular -- not just among serious shooters, not among carbine competitors, and not the AR-15 platform, not 16" AR's in general, but m4geries which are specifically designed to resemble Army-issue guns.

What is your point? I know what the subject is. Why are M4's so popular? Because they make a great all-purpose long guns for almost anyone... whether you are in LE, military, or just for home defense. They are also fun, good looking, you can hunt with them... etc...

Haven't we already gone over this?

 

[waterhouse]

I can see a use in a collapsible stock. I'm thinking about putting one on even my 20" AR. I can see the use of a short barrel, I've got a 14.5" with perm. flash hider.

I've never really understood what is gained by the, as ArmedBear so nicely put it:

barrel turned for a nonexistent grenade launcher

Can someone explain to me why the M4 barrel profile makes sense (from a non military point of view)?

Until I can figure that barrel profile out, the M4gery doesn't gain anything in my mind for range use, HD, or any other reason.

 

[Mikee Loxxer]

While we are on the subject of M4geries another question comes to mind. Why are the Springfield SOCOM M1A’s so popular? As far as I know no military organization has ever adopted an M-14 rifle with a 16” barrel. Personally I wouldn’t want one but many do.

 

[Boats]

000Buck wrote:

And the original poster wasnt really asking a question, he was just telling us his opinion but disguised it as a question. This happens everyday on forums all over the place. Another popular opinion hidden as a question is why are 14.5" barrels so popular??? With 16" being available, 14.5 is for idiots is the common "question"

Sure my opinion, "M4rgeries look ridiculous" is embedded in my post, but the question is genuine.

To put it another way, "How did such a goofy looking example of AR become so popular?"

I guess the why behind the why is "Why the midget handguards?" Small handguards look classic on an AK and look like a cost cutting move on an AR, as in "where'd the rest of the plastic go?"

So I have been shopping for an EBR. I have come down on an AK of some type, but every once in awhile I get drawn back to getting an AR, and then I encounter these goofball looking carbines. Now we have people saying the M4, and by extension, the 4rgery, are better rifles than the A2.

Maybe, for soldiers. But what is inferior about a 16" Bushie Dissipator? One could always telestock it.

 

[000Buck]

Can someone explain to me why the M4 barrel profile makes sense (from a non military point of view)?

Until I can figure that barrel profile out, the M4gery doesn't gain anything in my mind for range use, HD, or any other reason.

M4 profile does nothing for HD. Who said it did? The "question" asked was about the M4 in total, not just the turned down barrel. If you want a gun from LMT, that is your only option though. Would the M4 profile stop you from buying a gun?

I doubt most people buy M4 style guns because of the turned down barrel. Most people buy them because they are carbines. They are short and handy.

 

[000Buck]

But what is inferior about a 16" Bushie Dissipator? One could always telestock it.

You said the M4 handguards look ridiculous. You want to see ridiculous, take the handguards off the Dissipator. So you have the carbine gas block under the handguards, then you have the fake gas block up front with sight on it. Dissipators looks ridiculous to me, so to each his own or whatever.

If you want a short AR but dont like M4 handguards, look at a midlength. They have medium length handguards and a midlength gas system which is easier on the gun in the long run supposedly.

Small handguards look classic on an AK and look like a cost cutting move on an AR

A real life cost cutting measure is manufacturers putting out most of their guns in HBAR config. It was marketed as a great thing, but it is really just so the manufacturers dont have to turn the barrel down and use up costly bits and time on the machines.

 

[TOU]

Boat wrote: But what is inferior about a 16" Bushie Dissipator? One could always telestock it.

Exactly! This my idea as well. You do know the Dissy's can come with this stock, no? The only thing holding me back thus far (besides $$$ ) is wishing I could get it with the mid-length gas. (which I understood Bushmaster does not make.)

 

[Chris Rhines]

Nothing says you can't build an AR-15 carbine exactly the way you like it. I personally like a 16" lightweight barrel, mid-length gas system, and short fixed stock for a non-NFA home defense carbine. Modularity is a nice feature for a weapon system to have.

I also much prefer such a carbine to a shotgun, when it comes to choosing a weapon for home defense.

I don't know that the M4A1 lookalikes are more popular than any other variant of the AR-15 theme.

- Chris

 

[TOU]

Nothing says you can't build an AR-15 carbine exactly the way you like it. I personally like a 16" lightweight barrel, mid-length gas system, and short fixed stock for a non-NFA home defense carbine. Modularity is a nice feature for a weapon system to have.

So who/what did you go with? Build it yourself?

 

[Chris Rhines]

Built it myself. If I were going to buy a pre-assembled AR upper in the same configuration, I'd get one from CMMG.

- Chris

 

[DMK]

The carbine is just a handy size and lighter.

The funny thing is, most folks can't tell the difference between an M4 barrel and an HBAR, ending up with a rifle heavier than my 20" Govt. profile. Heck, my Govt. profile midlengths are even lighter than an M4.

Personally, I can't wait to get my 20" 1/7 twist pencil barrel from CMMG. That will make a light and handy rifle with the capability to shoot the better modern ammo.