Why are Semi Auto Shotguns not used more often for HD?

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

Most pumps are just very reliable they chamber a round with minimal effort plus if they have a short barrel they still shoot heavy or light loads, granted your not going to be using light loads for home defense, but if you are just practicing atleast the pump will cycle ok and you have that option. and then theres the price difference.

I see you missed the video I just posted about someone shooting an 1100 with a 14" barrel. Plus my 1100 has a 21" barrel and its not close to being too long for HD. It hasn't jammed yet.

 

[rbernie]

by the way heres a video of a 14" Remington 1100 in action, Note: No jams.

You can certainly open the gas port up to compensate for the loss of dwell, but the gun is then running on a raggedy edge and isn't nearly as reliable under mixed conditions as it would be if operating within its design parameters. I wouldn't recommend that for SD/HD use, but YMMV.

Forty+ years of experience with the 1100 has pretty much demonstrated to industry that 21.5" is the shortest that an 1100 barrel should go unless you're willing to tinker and accept some loss in reliability or durability. Gas guns with self-adjusting mechanisms can usually go shorter, but the 1100 lacks that feature.

 

[Mike1234567]

I currently keep a Saiga .410 nearby but am seriously thinking of getting a budget-priced 7+1 pump. There are a couple of reasons why: 1. I'd hate to lose the Saiga as evidence if/when I ever needed to use it., 2. I don't want some over-zealous DA claiming I'm a nut-case because I own an evil black assault shotgun.

ETA: I'll probably keep the Saiga handy as a secondary though.

 

[alias]

I live in the country, closest neighbor at least 600 yards away down the hill. My wife has a S&W 15-3 in her nightstand drawer. My "home defense" shotgun is a JW2000 hammer double loaded with low recoil OO buckshot with a 5 round nylon shell holder on the stock. In the closet inside the front door is my Stevens 311, typically loaded with 7.5 or 8 shot as a defense against ground squirrels. That even though in the safe I have an Ithaca 37, Mossberg 500 (with choice of 18", 24" rifle sight, and 28" barrels) and 835 and an O/U. I can't believe how many posters in this thread still hold to the ridiculous Hollywood notion that "the sound of racking the slide will send any bad guy running away with a load in his pants". What the sound of a slide racking does more than anything is give away your position, as well as sending a clear signal that the bearer of said racking shotgun is so terribly tactically naive that he/she either showed up to a potential gunfight with an unloaded gun, or threw a perfectly good round out on the floor just make sure any potential opponent in said possible gunfight knew in which direction to shoot first.

 

[rbernie]

I feel compelled to explain one element of the cost picture that perhaps is being missed in this discussion.

Folk use shotguns to hunt, to practice at the range, to participate in shooting games, and for SD/HD. Each of these uses can potentially dictate a different shotgun configuration, and it's not uncommon for folk to have a dedicated hunting/range gun and a separate gaming gun and a separate SD/HD gun. Some folk even like to have multiples for each use, since things tend to break under stress and having a spare can be handy at best and life-saving at worst. Further, some folk believe that there is value in ensuring that this lineup of shotguns all use similar manuals-of-arms, to ensure that the muscle memory needed to operate them under duress is ingrained during every single outing regardless of intent (hunting, gaming, SD, etc.).

So the cost savings between a pumpgun and a semiauto gun isn't just restricted to a singular arm, unless you're willing to run one gun for everything or willing to use different guns and different manuals of arms for each.

For folk that value an approach that includes multiple shotguns and who want them all to be the same (or highly similar), the cost savings of a pumpgun can make the difference between being able to implement the intended approach or not.

 

[Youngster]

Most of the semis I've seen sound at least as intimidating as a pump when you chamber a round, *shikCHACK!*

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

I currently keep a Saiga .410 nearby but am seriously thinking of getting a budget-priced 7+1 pump. There are a couple of reasons why: 1. I'd hate to lose the Saiga as evidence if/when I ever needed to use it., 2. I don't want some over-zealous DA claiming I'm a nut-case because I own an evil black assault shotgun.

I hate it when my gun gets taken for evidence, I should just buy 10 of my HD guns so I never run out!

Its not like you have a break in every week, its something that may happen once in your life, having your shotgun taken for evidence is worth it if you use it to defend your family. Also I'm still yet to hear a case that has someone labeled as a gun nut.

Most of the semis I've seen sound at least as intimidating as a pump when you chamber a round, *shikCHACK!*

Keeping your HD guns chambered is what you should do, all they hear is *tink* of the safety coming off and thats if they are in the same room.

 

[okiewita40]

Being an LEO I keep my shotgun in the same configuration as I do at work. One in the pipe with the safety on. That way all I have to do is kick off the safety, aim and pull the trigger. I prefer a pump over an auto loader but then again I was raised using pump shotguns.

 

[mgmorden]

I don't use a shotgun at all for HD (I use them for hunting though), but I have both a pump and and auto (and have owned quite a few of both types over the years), and truthfully I just trust pumps more. My current auto-loader (a Stoeger 12ga) has never given me any heartburn, but if I were betting my life on the gun going bang, I'd trust my 870 much more.

Maybe I've just had a string of bad luck (and like I said my CURRENT gun works fine), but moreso than rifles or handguns, semi-auto shotguns in particular have always had trouble working right (for me anyways).

My father has always been the same way. He has an old 870 Wingmaster that's never missed a beat in 35 years. He has owned several autoloaders (and still has a Remington 11-48 auto), but they have always collected dust, because he trusts the pump more. He also can shoot that old gun as fast as I've ever seen anyone shoot an auto.

 

[cfullgraf]

I only have shot one round of doubles when I had my pump and I didn't like how when I pumped it, it ruined the smoothness of my swing.

In the thirties and forties and maybe into the fifties, the pump was the gun of choice for top skeet competitors. But, a pump does require a bit more thought process and practice.

The O/Us and improvement in the semi-autos eventually replaced the pump for the top competitors.

I started shooting skeet with a pump and did pretty well. But after competing with an O/U, I can't shoot skeet with a pump to save my sole. The pump just won't go bang a second time unless I remember to get my left arm moving.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

You can certainly open the gas port up to compensate for the loss of dwell, but the gun is then running on a raggedy edge and isn't nearly as reliable under mixed conditions as it would be if operating within its design parameters. I wouldn't recommend that for SD/HD use, but YMMV.

If the gas ports are the right size to let an equal amount of pressure into the gas system that a longer barrel would provide, it would be just as reliable.

In the thirties and forties and maybe into the fifties, the pump was the gun of choice for top skeet competitors. But, a pump does require a bit more thought process and practice.

It does and since I'm a trap noob, I figured I might aswell get something that is easy to start off with, plus the lower recoil is nice.

 

[rbernie]

If the gas ports are the right size to let an equal amount of pressure into the gas system that a longer barrel would provide, it would be just as reliable.

Actually, no. Gas pressure is best viewed as a curve (pressure building and dissipating over time), since the shot load moving down the barrel increases the barrel volume, lowering pressures as a counter to the combustion process increasing the pressure. The gas creates motion (cycles the action) by exerting pressure against a gas piston over a certain amount of time (dwell), as the gas pressure itself peaks and ebbs. If you reduce the time (dwell) that the pressure can push against the gas piston by moving the muzzle closer to the gas port, then you must increase the pressure (open up the port) to compensate. The issue with that is that you wind up 'spiking' the action, and that simply hammers the action more and makes the gun more sensitive to load changes. It's not nearly as linear as you think, and I'm probably not doing a very good job explaining it.

This is why most modern gas shotguns use some form of compensating valve in the gas piston, to try to dampen peaks while still allowing adequate pressure to act over adequate time to unlock the action and cycle the bolt.

 

[lizziedog1]

Why is there such a debate over semi-auto shotguns and not so much over semi-auto handguns or rifles?

Those of you that don't trust autoloading shotguns, is your handgun of choice a revolver? If you don't trust a self-loading scattergun, why would you trust the same mechanism in a handgun? If a carbine is your choice, do you use a lever action versus a semi-auto?

Those of you worried about malfunctions, wouldn't a side-by-side shotgun be the ultimate in reliability? You could even have a firing pin malfunction and have one shot available. Granted, two, three, or five shots are better, but one is better than nothing. Many PH's use a double rifle, don't they?

I am not trying to be a smarty pants. It just seems like this debate only takes place over shotguns.

 

[PT92]

Why is there such a debate over semi-auto shotguns and not so much over semi-auto handguns or rifles..

...It just seems like this debate only takes place over shotguns.

Lizziedog1,

I think your general thesis speaking to a certain percentage of shooters inherent suspicion or general lack of confidence thereof in the semi-auto action applies across the board in that we see it here in the shotgun forum but just as much in the handgun forums were the age-old long debate of wheel gun vs. semi lives on in perpetuity.

-Cheers

 

[basicblur]

I don't recall listening to these ProArms Podcasts-may have been before I bought my player-I just downloaded the episodes to give 'em a whirl.
17A Homing In On The Defensive Shotgun
17B Homing In On The Defensive Shotgun

 

[bubbinator]

Why are semiauto shotguns not used more for HD?

I read all the posts and they are very good. rbernie and 527 bring great info and food for thought. As for me-42 yr LEO/Instructor/Rem 11/87 Armorer- in the military I had pumps w/ buckshot (870s/one pump w/ an exposed hammer! in Thailand. As an Animal Control Officer I used all my personal stuff-Mossberg 500/Rem 1100+rifles. Once on with the state we had Rem 870s(I got to select mine as an instructor and added a mag extension and sid saddle for 13 rds on board) then we "upgraded to Rem 11-87s 14" guns-NOT. Only full power ammo functioned, cleaning was a chore and accuracy was terrible even with rifle sights. The biggest issue we saw pushing agents under stress with a pump was "short stroking" the slide and forcing a round feeding from the magazine under the shell lifter! If a Hard butt stroke on the ground didn't clear it-a full disassembly was required to make the gun shoot. A semi-auto won't do that bad a hangup-a FTE/FTF can be cleared with a manual bolt cycle in almost every case. That said-what do I depend on? Mossberg 500 8+1 20" w/ red-dot-buck/slug mix/ Mossberg 550 w/ tru-glo rifle sights buck/2s/4s. Rem 1100 chicken yard HD gun is Rem 1100 w/ mag extension/26" Mod choke & side saddle w/ extra #4s/6s. (It is a boat oar as described in a thread-but coons and possums and stupid predators don't require such fine handling! My bedroom gun is a slick 16" High Standard PD-trade-in with extended mag and glow-in-the-dark rifle sights loaded with #4 buck/slugs/00 buck and has a tactical light! Please call before coming to visit after 10 PM!

 

[Panzercat]

About the only argument I can make for a pump over a semi is control... You control when that next shell gets jacked into the pipe and when it doesn't. That's a strong argument for a home environment, IMO. Otherwise, I've seen more than enough examples of perfectly reliable semis not to worry if I was using one for HD or not.

 

[kozak6]

Why is there such a debate over semi-auto shotguns and not so much over semi-auto handguns or rifles?

Metallic cartridges are rather uniform when compared to shotgun cartridges. The weights of most rifle and pistol bullets fall into a total range of several tens of grains, if that.

Shotgun payloads differ immensely in weight It's more difficult to design a shotgun that will function well with light loads and heavy loads, let alone without adjustment.

If you prefer a reduced recoil load, many semiautomatics won't be able to cycle it.

Reliability is less of an issue with modern shotguns, though, and is a far lesser objection than the significantly higher price when compared to pumps.

 

[RX-178]

For me, it's a couple of key issues.

1: I don't keep shotguns chambered. I don't know if this is me going by outdated information or what not, but shotguns have always had a reputation for being anything but drop-safe. In an HD situation, I can seriously picture myself reaching for the shotgun while barely awake, and knocking it over. It seems much easier to chamber a pump action than it is to chamber a semi-auto.

2: Price. If I weren't a gun collector already, and I had the money to spend on a semi-auto shotgun for home defense... I'd probably take that money and use it to buy a carbine instead. It's just a more versatile defensive weapon, and an easier to operate weapons platform than a shotgun is.

OR... I might even be in a situation where I'd be taking that money and buying a CCW handgun instead. Pump shotguns are so cheap, that they cost less than just about any handgun I would use for carry. Semi shotguns, not so much.

 

[PT92]

If you prefer a reduced recoil load, many semiautomatics won't be able to cycle it.

I have always said that tactical semis are made to 'reliably' run only with tactical full-power loads. To me, that makes sense in that they are designed for LE/Military use and nothing less.

In theory, would anyone use anything less than full-power buckshot or slugs in a LE/Mil/HD type situation?

It reminds me a HP cop I knew back in the hey-day of the glorious .357 wheel-gun who ALWAYS practiced with .38 ammo primarily because it had less-recoil and was cheaper.

While I can understand both rationales, I would recommend training with whatever you will be using for your intended purposes.

-Cheers

 

[lizziedog1]

Sometimes my cousin joins me for bird hunting. He uses an 870 and I use a semi-auto shotgun. His gun has jammed and malfunctioned more than my gun.

Shooting at birds, it is a inconvience not having a follow up shot. In a SD situation it could have lethal consequences. Between his gun and mine, from what I see, I would pick mine if the target was two-legged and dangerous.

Again, if ultimate relability was the major criteria, wouldn't a double-barrel shotgun be the choice? Granted, you lose the number of rounds immediately available. But if a pump or semi jamms after the first shot, the double barrel doubles your fire power. The odds of a double barrel jamming is very low.

If you prefer a reduced recoil load, many semiautomatics won't be able to cycle it.

There are semi-auto handguns that are just as finicky as any shotgun. Reduced loads will goof them up as easily as any shotgun.

Like I said, if you are a pump shotgun fan, you should also be a revolver fan, and a fan of lever action carbines.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Lizzie, even Colonel Cooper used a SxS as part of his HD setup.

And the guns here are a mix. The 22's a semi, the centerfire rifle's a lever action, the handguns are strong on revolvers, etc.

I've seen way more semis jam than pumps, and since I was instructing with 870s I have seen an awful lot of bad handling and inexperienced newbies fumbling with pumps.

HOWEVER, I've also seen examples of both kinds go thousands of rounds without a hitch.

Pick whatever you want. Do the Ayoob Yest. Run at least 200 rounds of duty ammo through it. If it glitches fix ot or trade it off. If not, shoottheheckoutofit.....

 

[red rick]

I would guess price.

IMO a quality made semi is more reliable than a novice with a pump.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

About the only argument I can make for a pump over a semi is control... You control when that next shell gets jacked into the pipe and when it doesn't. That's a strong argument for a home environment, IMO. Otherwise, I've seen more than enough examples of perfectly reliable semis not to worry if I was using one for HD or not.

After I fire a round at someone, I want a fresh round in the chamber as fast as possible, I don't know why you wouldn't.

If you prefer a reduced recoil load, many semiautomatics won't be able to cycle it.

I actually have some recoil reduced Buckshot that I've never used. I'll try it in my 1100 next time I go shooting and let you guys know.

 

[kayak-man]

I went with the pump gun because it was cheaper. I've found that I like the controlls of the 870 better than the controlls on any of the auto's I've handled.

Sure, I could get used to an auto, but why fix something that isn't broken?

Personally, I don't feel handicapped in the slightest with a pump gun. Granted, I haven't had a chance to do much practical shooting with it, but whenever I shoot skeet, I don't feel like the pump slows me down at all.

Just my opinion,

Chris "the Kayak-Man" Johnson