Why aren't lasers more popular on handguns?

[Smaug]

Smaug. Ill try to respond to each of your thoughts..here goes

Thanks!

-3-5 yards shooting? Do people actually practice that? Thats pretty much spitting distance. I guess I could see that as a confidence builder for new shooters. It would get boring pretty fast. If an LCP is only good for 3-5 yard hits thats kind of rediculous. I can nail a 1 gallon milk jug pretty easily with a cheap Raven 25acp at 25 yards (my typical shooting distance) and I am not some pistol sniper. 3-5 yard hit range is pretty silly. Kind of scary that people are willing to accept that standard on a CCW.

0-7 yards is considered standard self defense range. In this range, speed + center mass hits are what we're after to survive. A hit in the outside of the 8 ring in 1/2 second is preferable to an X-ring hit that takes 2 seconds. I think that's why people practice it.

Now I'm not saying I ONLY practice at close range, but I also don't expect myself to stay on 8x11 paper at 25 yards with a DAO snubby. If you can do that, you're pretty good shot in my view.

At 25 yards, I like my guns that are made to be shot accurately at distance: 7.5" Ruger Redhawk, 6-7/8" Ruger Mk. II Target, even the 4" S&W 19.

Matter of fact, I wish I had the opportunity to shoot at milk jugs, like a lot of the YouTubers do... (at ANY range!)

- Point shooting practice is fine I just wouldnt depend on it in any sort of chaos environment.

Too bad, it might be all you have time for.

 

[starling]

Thanks!


0-7 yards is considered standard self defense range. In this range, speed + center mass hits are what we're after to survive. A hit in the outside of the 8 ring in 1/2 second is preferable to an X-ring hit that takes 2 seconds. I think that's why people practice it.

Now I'm not saying I ONLY practice at close range, but I also don't expect myself to stay on 8x11 paper at 25 yards with a DAO snubby. If you can do that, you're pretty good shot in my view.

At 25 yards, I like my guns that are made to be shot accurately at distance: 7.5" Ruger Redhawk, 6-7/8" Ruger Mk. II Target, even the 4" S&W 19.

Matter of fact, I wish I had the opportunity to shoot at milk jugs, like a lot of the YouTubers do... (at ANY range!)



Too bad, it might be all you have time for.

Probably help to understand my posts if I explain my point of view on firearms. My love for firearms centers around history/design and target shooting. I dont practice tactical scenarios or close range timed shooting. I do carry a good bit though. Everything your saying makes sense of course we are just coming from different areas.

I shoot a lot of smooth DAO. I can make those hits on 8x11 pretty consistently if it has decent sights. 8x11 is pretty big though. I wont be getting 3" groups like many claim.

Milk jugs work. They get thrown in the trash or recycled anyways. Just drink the milk first! No need to waste it. Lots of fun targets out there people just throw away. Old tennis balls are a good one because they dance around and move when you shoot them. We shoot them a lot with 22 target pistols. Old tennis balls only...new ones are to be used on the court.

 

[mavracer]

Now I'm not saying I ONLY practice at close range, but I also don't expect myself to stay on 8x11 paper at 25 yards with a DAO snubby. If you can do that, you're pretty good shot in my view.

I shot a lot of DA full size revolvers in the 90s and thought I was pretty good. In around 2007 when Ks first passed shall issue carry I got a 442 and tossed some crimson trace grips on it and found out what a difficult task it is to shoot a lightweight DAO gun. Yes it took a lot of practice but using the laser and snap caps I became real good at holding the laser on the light switch on the other side of the room and stroking the trigger.
A side effect of this was not only could I shoot the 442 better, but I shot service size revolvers better and shot my non laser equipped LCP better also.
8x11 @ 25 yards

Point shooting practice is fine I just wouldnt depend on it in any sort of chaos environment.

I feel that live fire practice of point shooting is mostly a waste of ammunition, if you're practicing your presentation sufficiently and correctly the ability to point shoot should be a side effect. At least well enough to put rounds on a torso out to 7 yards from most any defensive shooting position.

 

[starling]

I shot a lot of DA full size revolvers in the 90s and thought I was pretty good. In around 2007 when Ks first passed shall issue carry I got a 442 and tossed some crimson trace grips on it and found out what a difficult task it is to shoot a lightweight DAO gun. Yes it took a lot of practice but using the laser and snap caps I became real good at holding the laser on the light switch on the other side of the room and stroking the trigger.
A side effect of this was not only could I shoot the 442 better, but I shot service size revolvers better and shot my non laser equipped LCP better also.

I feel that live fire practice of point shooting is mostly a waste of ammunition, if you're practicing your presentation sufficiently and correctly the ability to point shoot should be a side effect. At least well enough to put rounds on a torso out to 7 yards from most any defensive shooting position.

Good post. Smaug is selling himself short. I dont have some magical ability. Almost Anyone can do it with enough dry fire/snap cap practice. New shooters its often just getting the feel and being comfortable with shooting and having a controlled explosion going off in your hand. I started early with air pistols..then 22 and on to centerfire so that part was never a real issue. Trigger control took a little work but a lot of that was just dry fire practice.

Now if I was just starting now and was satisfied with center mass hits at close ranges would things be the same.... probably not. I was all about hitting the bullseye though. Shotgun style patterns with pistol shooting gets a little boring for me in terms of shooting enjoyment.

I dont consider myself a great shot but some of the accuracy claims I read on the net is pretty crazy. Getting tiny groups at distance with something like a snubnose is some ultra high level skill. Movies of course make it look easy.

You are doing it right. DAO shooting reveals who has decent trigger control and who does not. A target also tells me a lot more than any sort of timer ever will. Seems the trend right now though is to shoot close range and spray bullets as fast as humanly possible. There comes a point when people should just consider full auto or shotguns.

Back to lasers... They are great and thats the easiest way for me to say it. They are multi purpose and practical across the board IMO. Gives you defensive applications in darkness as well as an aid for practice in multiple ways while always staying out of the way for proper iron sight useage. Very little training involved to be efficient with them. Why people have such disdain for them is beyond me. Red dot sights on CCW pistols are a whole different thing IMO. Red dots have their pros and cons where lasers are basically just pros other than the anguish of getting a holster.

 

[mavracer]

A target also tells me a lot more than any sort of timer ever will.

I wouldn't discount the value of a shot timer and speed drills either. There needs to be a balance I'm an old Jeff Cooper fan and his DVC Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas is still relevant even though many seem to say one is more important or one is irrelevant the bottom like accuracy, speed and power are all important.

Another happy side effect of rapidly cycling a DAO revolver while holding the laser as stationary as possible is the muscle memory built doing that greatly helps with recoil control.

 

[starling]

I wouldn't discount the value of a shot timer and speed drills either. There needs to be a balance I'm an old Jeff Cooper fan and his DVC Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas is still relevant even though many seem to say one is more important or one is irrelevant the bottom like accuracy, speed and power are all important.

Another happy side effect of rapidly cycling a DAO revolver while holding the laser as stationary as possible is the muscle memory built doing that greatly helps with recoil control.

Agreed.. if shot timers are peoples things I have no problem with it assuming they can actually hit things smaller than a car.

Lots of different ways people can go in shooting. I tend to like bullseye type shooting so I admit I am a bit bias there. Right now there seems to be a mix of comp speed shooting and defensive/offensive tactical whatever going on. Its all good as long as people are safe and think things through. So many variables in firearms. Just as there is no everything can do all firearms the same can be said for shooting styles. Most of the tactical training stuff to me is boring..had enough in the service... but a lot of people are really into it and try to equate it to more of a sport. I typically suggest they try paintball if they really want to get good at tactics since they will be forced to match up against a human opponent instead of a lifeless target. Side benefit is they will make new friends and have a good time while staying safe....like an actual sport.

 

[tdbmd]

I have the CT grips on my J-frame and Kimber Micro 9. An extra adjunct for the actual sights and nice to have in low light. Practice both with the laser and the iron sights on both firearms so I am comfortable using either one.

 

[Smaug]

This post is following up on my earlier promise to come back with accuracy results comparing laser to open sights.

Range: 25 yards, indoors
Action: SA
Method: Slow fire, for max accuracy
Gun: 3" Ruger SP-101 in 357
Load: Federal Punch, 38+P, 120 gr. HP

Laser group is around 4.5"
Sights group is around 6"

I had my distance glasses on which correct my vision to 20/20, but it was hard to see the dark front sight against the dark target in the darkish range, even with the light on.

I plan to swap out the front sight with an XS tritium soon. I just put the XS tritium on my LCR yesterday night after cleaning the guns, and it is a big difference in low light, even though the LCR at least had a white front sight. It should be an even bigger difference for the SP-101, with its black front sight.

My take-aways:

• the laser always makes accurate shooting at distance in low light a LOT easier. Even when I felt I could see the front sight clearly enough, it is very blocky; hard to line up just right. Doesn't mean it can't be done, but it's a LOT harder.
• the laser is good for closer ranges in low light, as I can keep my eye on the perpetrator; no need to change focus from front sight to attacker.
• Shooting outside in daylight is a lot easier than indoor/low light with iron sights, but with time to pick up the laser, it is more accurate there too. It's again a matter of the front sight being HUGE on the target at that range. Even target iron sights are very big at that range. They'd need to be thinner, but then they'd be harder to pick up quickly in a combat situation.

This was my first time trying the Federal Punch 38+P 120 gr. It's got a decent kick from the 3" SP-101, but not like a Magnum. It felt quite stout out of the 38 LCR. I didn't want to shoot more than two cylinders of it.

Side note, since this is the General Handguns forum, I switched to my XD-45 Tactical after shooting the little revolvers, and boy is it easier to shoot well. Softer recoil and I could shoot twice as fast with more accuracy at 25 yards. At 7 yards, groups were consistently tighter, but it wouldn't have mattered in a combat situation.

Here are the 25 yard targets from the SP-101, laser vs. iron sights. Note the flyers at far left and at the bottom of the cardboard on the iron sight target. I just couldn't resolve the difference in sight picture at that range.

​

 

[lsudave]

Lasers seem like a neat gimmick, but I'm just not a fan for practical usage. Like others have said, finding the dot is slower than point-shooting, or point-with front sight acquisition... at least to me. I do have a green one on a rifle, but purely as a toy (yes, I admit- I have it on an AR, and synched to meet my red dot at about 50 yds). Funny thing, once I got one and put it on, it lost a lot of the appeal.

 

[UncleEd]

Lasers were all the rage, the new tech.
Now it's red dots.

Gun makers and after market producers
love all that stuff as a way to increase
sales.

 

[Blkhrt13]

Lasers have a purpose. In all actuality I’m going to put one on a rifle for my wife to use for home defense. I don’t like the way rails affect the lines on guns. I may get a house gun. But most of ccw weapons are double duty. The gun in the running for house gun will likely be a pt92 because I have mags that fit it and my 92s. It will be awkward putting a laser on a pistol that costs less than the light laser combo.

 

[redcon1]

I love lasers on a handgun. The green laser is a major improvement over the red laser as far as target acquisition speed goes but I have had trouble with those failing in the cold weather. The green diode doesn't tolerate prolonged exposure to very cold cold weather. In low light/night, the red laser is fine but the green laser is still way better. There's very little searching for the dot and it's faster than searching for a sight picture and allows you to make shots that you almost certainly would not otherwise be able to make. In bright day light, the green laser is clearly superior to the red laser. The darker it is, the more useful any laser becomes. I use a CT Railmaster on a suppressed Ruger MKIV tactical for dispatching varmints in the middle of the night. Before I used that setup, I had a red dot sight on a Ruger 22/45 and I killed a lot of varmints with that set up but the laser was a game changer. It's faster and easier to acquire your target with the green laser than the RDS. I really don't like the RDS. I know it's all the rage right now and I know it has its niche but I think the green laser is a better choice by far with the acknowledgement that it has problems with cold weather. I personally think the green laser is a better choice than a RDS but my experience with the RDS is limited to the varmint hunting I just mentioned so I would still like to train with a RDS just to see if I'm missing something and so I do "have my sights set on" a new handgun with a RDS-like an FN or a Sig probably.

 

[jmorris]

I do own and use lasers; however, on a defensive firearm I wouldn’t want to implement anything that would instantly give away my position.

 

[redcon1]

I do own and use lasers; however, on a defensive firearm I wouldn’t want to implement anything that would instantly give away my position.

They do have switches on them so you can turn them off.

 

[Jimfern]

I like using lasers for handguns and have been very happy with Crimson Trace both the products and customer service (for free batteries and a replacement part here and there). I don't find them so intrusive that I wouldn't be able to use the firearm if they failed for some reason.

 

[jmorris]

They do have switches on them so you can turn them off.

If I wouldn’t want to give away my position, why pay for something that goes unused or could accidentally be switched on even for a moment?

As an opposite situation, offensive, I have them on a number of my night time hunting rigs. Makes it easy to go from daytime optics to thermal and confirm zero as well as makes for a great pointer in total darkness for others to follow.

 

[redcon1]

If I wouldn’t want to give away my position, why pay for something that goes unused or could accidentally be switched on even for a moment?

As an opposite situation, offensive, I have them on a number of my night time hunting rigs. Makes it easy to go from daytime optics to thermal and confirm zero as well as makes for a great pointer in total darkness for others to follow.

I just don't see it as an issue. The only time you would really worry about giving away your position would be if you were clearing rooms or trying to be sneaky at night. I'm not trying to do either. As far as the laser itself goes, aside from having an on/off switch, it also has an actuation button that you depress to actuate it so it's not like it has to be continuously on or continuously off.

The ability to keep your focus down range where the threats are, the ability to make rapid and accurate headshots and to transition from one target to another without having to worry about changing your sight picture and all while in darkness far outweigh any negative issues that one could complain about IMO. It's just a very handy tool. They're great for dryfire practice too. If I had to complain about anything, it would be that the green lasers don't seem to tolerate cold weather well and the laser grips (as used on my Glocks) make the grip area a little larger than I like (but not large enough to really offset any of the benefits the device provides). As far as the rail mounted lasers go, I might also complain that those can make holster selection a little more difficult. I know RDS is all the rage right now and I see the appeal, but I don't think they're superior to a green laser. I like the idea of using them with NV too, especially an IR laser.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Lasers on guns, especially handguns...yeeeeeeaaaahhh, I'm going to say no...(in the voice of Bill Lumbergh from Office Space).

Ever see those cool Hollywood action movies where that nice, stable red dot appears on the guy's forehead?

That might happen with a rifle perched solidly on a stand, but it ain't gonna happen with your handgun. It's gonna be all over the place and odds are you're going to be concentrating more on that dot than your target. ESPECIALLY for a moving target. Real life laser sights on guns are nothing like Hollywood scenes.

To be sure, I think they're cool. And I do think they have their place under certain circumstances. But for someone who wants to slap one on their carry piece and have at it?

Not a good idea.

If you WANT to do this, more power to you. After all, shooting is fun and any excuse to go shooting is great. But please do dedicate a significant amount of time learning how to master this.

THAT SAID...

A laser is NOT a red dot optic. Two different things. A red dot is an optical sight which does not project a laser beam at all. A laser is exactly that...a laser pointer fastened to your pistol.

You will react differently to various sighting systems, whether red dot, laser, iron sights, or 'scope. They have different skill sets evoke different behavioral responses to their use which you'll have to learn and compensate for. I believe a few people have mentioned something along these lines, like the tendency to focus on that wantering laser dot instead of the target.

I think first learning and mastering iron sights is best for a variety of reasons. From there, you can move on to other sighting systems.

Be aware, though, that as much as advertising tends to market any given system "easy", the most assuredly are all skills which require a LOT of time to learn and master in order to acheive some basic level of compentency. If you suck with iron sights and thing a laser sight is the answer, odds are you're going to be even more frustrated.

So build your foundation of good handgun control and competency first, then move on from there to build your skills in other areas.

 

[wesmonster]

I have one pistol with a green laser, it's mainly for training. Watching that green beam bounce around or not will help with trigger control and pulling shots to the left. And a few with red lasers, just for fun.
As already mentioned, red can easily dissapear in sunlight, while green in low light is like a light saber.
For carry or serious use, nope. Don't train yourself to expect that dot only to find you can't see it when you need to.

Shine a laser on a high gloss target like a Dirty Bird and it'll shine like a diamond.
Same laser shining on a black fleece jacket will dissapear.

 

[jmorris]

The ability to keep your focus down range where the threats are, the ability to make rapid and accurate headshots and to transition from one target to another without having to worry about changing your sight picture and all while in darkness far outweigh any negative issues that one could complain about IMO.

Now your talking about things that do interest me. Thermal just works so much better for that task, especially acquisition. Now if I could use a laser to light up a target for air support…

As I said, I do own and use them, they are on almost all of my night hunting rigs but not for making shots. If they were better that the other stuff I put on the rifles for shooting, I would be using them for that though.



I have also made my own laser gun, battery charges a capacitor and discharges as a pulse when the trigger (SPDT switch) is pressed. Photo cell sounds buzzer when bullseye is hit. Black tube through bullseye slides over the orange one on the board.



also works with the iTarget app. It’s kind of neat because you can use any target you want.



It even makes “bullet holes”, shooting sounds and totals your score. On the device it’s running on.



I’m not a laser “hater” I just haven’t found them to be very effective over other things, especially if I get out a shot timer and start quantifying performance.

However, I do understand there is a “butt for every seat” (as they say in the car business) and if you really like them but dislike the fact they limit your holster choices for you and your Glock, one of these may be just what you are looking for.

https://www.lasermax.com/products/internal-lasers.html

 

[redcon1]

Thermal just works so much better for that task, especially acquisition. Now if I could use a laser to light up a target for air support… As I said, I do own and use them, they are on almost all of my night hunting rigs but not for making shots

It all depends on you mission. For my mission, a green laser on a suppressed Ruger MKIV tactical is optimal for killing raccoons that my dogs treed. I actually like raccoons though and I feel bad about having killed so many of them but they were overpopulated and causing a lot of problems. Now, if I was hunting more serious critters at longer distances, there's no doubt that thermal would be the way to go but, the truth is, I like animals and there aren't a lot of places around north-west Ohio where I would be likely to night hunt so I have held off on buying a thermal scope even though I want one just because they're cool. We used thermals and passive NVDs in the Army and they were both major force multipliers. I remember scanning a wood line one night in Bosnia and watching an Owl dropping turds 500 yards away from inside the turret of my Bradley Fighting Vehicle. I could literally see the turds falling out of him. I could see other things as well and I remember not being able to see through glass windows on cars and houses which gave me ideas on defeating thermal sights but that's where a passive night vision device would come in handy or, better yet, a fusion system but we didn't have that technology back then.
anyways, my varmint slayer:

if you really like them but dislike the fact they limit your holster choices for you and your Glock, one of these may be just what you are looking for.

I've considered that but I'm rather fond of the crimson trace grip laser and it doesn't seem to interfere with my favorite holsters. As a redundant sighting system on a self defense handgun, one is basically limited to a laser or a RDS. I can't say for sure that one is better than the other because I haven't really used a RDS enough to make that statement but, my gut tells me, the laser is probably better all around even if the RDS is a few miliseconds faster at the range. The fact is, I do presently believe that is the case. I have lasers on several handguns but the one that makes the most sense was the green laser grip on the Glock 19x. The other guns with red lasers make sense too but I found this 19x/laser grip combination to be particularly effective. Until I found out the hard way that a green laser can be destroyed by exposure to cold weather. despite that, I'd buy another one of these before anything else and just remember not to expose it to sub-zero temperatures for prolonged periods of time.

 

[Nuclear]

I was an early adopter of the slide mounted red dots, which were an advantage when the mounting screws didn't come loose or shear, or the batteries fail or the red dot just plain didn't stand up to the impact of the slide recoil. So I used a crimson trace laser as a back up, which actually worked pretty well a couple of times in casual competition, since the red dot I was using was mounted on the rear sight cut.

Lasers have fallen out of favor now that red dots are so much more reliable than they were.

Now with milled slides, suppressor height irons and rails, you can have three redundant, diverse sighting systems on your firearm.

 

[tdbmd]

I think that whatever sighting system you use, the important thing is to practice with it AND with whatever the backup sighting system is, because anything electronic can fail and being able to revert to the iron sights makes sense.

 

[lee n. field]

I do own and use lasers; however, on a defensive firearm I wouldn’t want to implement anything that would instantly give away my position.

Firing the gun will instantly give away your position.

 

[The_Quartermaster]

I don't, they're not for me. However if that's your thing and you can make it work, rock on then.

I prefer to be shakiest with a red dot rather than a laser though, YMMV.