Why no smokeless muzzleloaders?

Status
Not open for further replies.

WestKentucky

Member
Joined
Feb 1, 2014
Messages
13,117
Location
Western Kentucky
Curiosity has set in...why has no major manufacturer produced a muzzleloading rifle capable of firing a modern smokeless powder? If they tapered the back of the chamber slightly so you could ram down consistently then it would be very much like a modern rifle. I'm sure we could create this in a 30 cal and let the ramrod have interchangeable pusher tips that support a bullet and protect it from damage during ram.

Is it just the massive following of the 50cal smoke pole crowd, or is there some other reason?

I'm sure this has been asked before...but why???
 
Savage made the ML10 until very recently.
I do not think we could use smokeless powder here in Michigan, during the blackpowder season.
 
Black powder EXPLODES. Commonly old-timey black powder rounds were simply filled cases with bullets rammed on top. Air in the case was the enemy.

Smokeless powder BURNS. Air in the case has no meaning, but the case volume determines the pressure created.

You would have to ram the projectile down to the same depth each time, or risk an overpressure situation, ask any reloader why bullet setback is so dangerous. This is not a problem in blackpowder rounds.
 
Those bad bull guns are sweet but gaaaawwwwwleee. They are a touch pricy like a catheter is a touch uncomfortable. Your going the wrong way guys...cram a .308 bullet down a .308 bore with some rifle powder in the bottom. Think singleshot 30-06 that gets loaded from the front. Why not? I know it's tough to cram down but it should be do-able.
 
Other than as a curiosity I don't think a smokeless powder muzzle stuffer would have a purpose. We have smokeless powder firearms using a cartridge which is much more convenient to shoot, reload, and clean. True, there are black powder cartridge guns but the smokeless variety has all of the inherent advantages that allowed it to replace black powder as it did. I do not collect black powder weapons because of their superior shooting characteristics, but because many of them have historical connections and they are a lot of fun to shoot, and they also allow my grandkids to experience a little history that I am sure will soon be removed from their history books.
 
Black powder EXPLODES. Commonly old-timey black powder rounds were simply filled cases with bullets rammed on top. Air in the case was the enemy.

Smokeless powder BURNS. Air in the case has no meaning, but the case volume determines the pressure created.

You would have to ram the projectile down to the same depth each time, or risk an overpressure situation, ask any reloader why bullet setback is so dangerous. This is not a problem in blackpowder rounds.

Not so. "Set back" isn't as dangerous in a rifle cartridge as many believe. The deeper the bullet is seated, the further it jumps to engage the rifling giving it more momentum before it gets there which actually reduces pressure.

It may be a bit different in a muzzle loader if the rifling goes all the way down the bore. However, seating the bullet engraves it which is why jacketed muzzle loader bullets use a plastic sabot. A sabot has less friction than copper both going in and coming out. Pressure curve is likely to have less of a spike in a smokeless muzzle loader than a smokeless cartridge because the bullet will already be engaged in in the rifling and have less friction. Even if this is wrong, the load can still be adjusted to make safe pressures with smokeless powders in a ML rifle
 
Some companies make aftermarket TC and H&R type smokeless type barrels. It is my understanding that Savage continues to make the ML10 but is special order.

.308 smokeless barrels have been done. Some used a section of rifle barrel to pre-rifle the bullet, making the bullet seating easier. It is laborous! Of course, you can use cast bullets but velocity will be limited. It's best to just use a sabot.
 
maybe because the likelihood of guys not being careful about powder measuring and seating pressure. Imagine the liability exposure.
 
maybe because the likelihood of guys not being careful about powder measuring and seating pressure. Imagine the liability exposure.
d2wing nailed it. For all of its faults, black powder is very forgiving in the charge weight and powder handling without precise measuring equipment. If you're targeting 70 grains of FFg and get 65 or 75 instead, your TC isn't going to blow up. Smokeless has a much higher energy density, charges are smaller and as I recall the powders used in the ML10 are on the fast end of the spectrum. Way easy to take a gun apart with a bit of inattention and inaccuracy with the powder charge.

And forcing a jacketed bullet down a bore? Ouch! My TC was hard enough to load with regular plastic sabots. Another thing of muzzleloaders is I don't think many makers have quite the same bore diameter consistency as an equivalent CF rifle. Why else would TC and Hornady make easy-load sabots? (I had to use these to get more than two shots out of my Encore before scrubbing the bore thoroughly.)
 
I do not collect black powder weapons because of their superior shooting characteristics, but because many of them have historical connections and they are a lot of fun to shoot, and they also allow my grandkids to experience a little history that I am sure will soon be removed from their history books.
While there is certainly nothing wrong with that and I'll agree that they are fun to shoot, the fact is that very few people who own muzzleloaders, myself included, have them for the historical significance or target shooting. They own them in order to have the opportunity to hunt for a few extra days or weeks. I have used a muzzleloader instead of a shotgun here in Ohio for a number of years now because it is more accurate at longer range. Of course that is not a factor in states like CO where you can use rifles but people still primarily buy them because it gives them extra hunting days.
 
Bearcreek, I think you're underestimating the number of folks that participate in the sport/hobby of mountain man shooting or similar events like Civil War and War of Independence re-enacting. I wouldn't say that they outnumber the muzzle loader hunters but I'd bet an e-beer that it's closer than you think.
 
e-beer huh? As long as I can get an e-buzz I'm OK with it.:evil:

I have 4 BP rifles and two hundguns. I do like to hunt with them but most of all just really get a kick out of shooting them. I have had several others that I wish I had kept now that traditional rifles are getting harder to find.

I do wish they made a BP powder substitute that was smokeless and non corrosive so that clean up wasn't a big deal like with real black.

Those bad bull guns are sweet but gaaaawwwwwleee. They are a touch pricy like a catheter is a touch uncomfortable. Your going the wrong way guys...cram a .308 bullet down a .308 bore with some rifle powder in the bottom. Think singleshot 30-06 that gets loaded from the front. Why not? I know it's tough to cram down but it should be do-able.

Try it and let us know how it worked for you. I drove one jacketed bullet through an 8mm mauser bore. Once. The bullet when it came out the other end was not pretty.
 
Bearcreek, I think you're underestimating the number of folks that participate in the sport/hobby of mountain man shooting or similar events like Civil War and War of Independence re-enacting. I wouldn't say that they outnumber the muzzle loader hunters but I'd bet an e-beer that it's closer than you think.
Could be. I have a couple friends that do Civil War reenacting. Been in a couple "battles" with them myself. It's a good time. I don't really have any hard evidence I suppose, just going off what I see in outdoor stores, magazines, in the deer woods etc. Of course, as it relates to the subject at hand, attempts at smokeless powder muzzleloaders are intended for the hunting crowd, not reenactors/historical interest types.
 
Can you please cite your reference(s) for that info?

Thanks.

It's simple. If you seat the bullet out far enough to engage the rifling, it increases pressure because the bullet has more resistance to overcome to get moving. Set the bullet deeper, it get's moving before it hit the rifling which reduces the initial resistance of engraving the bullet. Benchresters will seat the bullet out to reduce the chance of the bullet entering the rifling crooked. Some will seat the bullet out far enough that the bullet will actually engage the rifling. To compensate, they reduce the powder charge to keep pressures at a safe level.

While deeply seating a bullet does encroach on case capacity, it doesn't matter much because the neck tension alone isn't enough to develop any kind of pressure. In fact, pressure from the primer alone is enough to drive the bullet out of the case and get it stuck in the rifling. True case capacity is how much volume there is at point the bullet engages the rifling. That's why Roy Weatherby uses a long throat with his proprietary cartridges. It makes more room for more powder to increase velocities while keeping pressures down to safe levels without having to use a larger case. Clever, eh?

I had a batch of 22-250 reloads that gave high pressure signs in a Remington 788. The bolt was sticky. Drove me crazy because I thought I was going to have to pull the bullets and dump the powder. After studying the rounds, I realized the bullets were seated out a bit too far. I set up the dies, seated the bullets a bit deeper and pressures dropped back to normal.

You can read about this in any detailed reloading manual and I think P.O. Ackley wrote about it in his two volume set as well
 
1. there are some but they are uncommon.
2. Liability: with a muzzle loader everyone is a "handloader" of sorts-the bar to entry is pretty low. All black powder substitutes are designed to be volume-equal substitudes for and have the same burn rate as black powder while there are smokeless powders out there with much higher and much lower burn rates.

I believe there is a safe smokless powder load for every muzzleloader and with a slower burning powder loaded to the same peak pressure should give better performance with all but the shortest barrels.

Mike
 
Yes, WHY? Well, because there is a myriad of cartridge guns to fill that void. And Savage has already went that smokeless powder route with very limited acceptance.

To me, muzzleloaders are to be used as our forefathers did, real black powder and patched lead balls.
 
Other than as a curiosity I don't think a smokeless powder muzzle stuffer would have a purpose. We have smokeless powder firearms using a cartridge which is much more convenient to shoot, reload, and clean. True, there are black powder cartridge guns but the smokeless variety has all of the inherent advantages that allowed it to replace black powder as it did. I do not collect black powder weapons because of their superior shooting characteristics, but because many of them have historical connections and they are a lot of fun to shoot, and they also allow my grandkids to experience a little history that I am sure will soon be removed from their history books.
All too true. I shoot modern, milsurp, black powder cartridge and muzzleloaders, each has their place, mix matching apples and oranges is not in the cards for me.

http://hstrial-rchambers.homestead.com/Index.html
 
NULA makes a VERY nice smokeless muzzle loader in both RH and LH actions, Mel's rifles are amazing!!

My brother has had a Savage smokeless ML for many years now, he loves it and has had 0 problems with it! I know he's shot a lot of deer with it, also several coyotes and i think at least one bobcat too.

Savage still makes a run of them each year...they are good rifles.

DM
 
I have used my Savage ML 10 II for three seasons of deer hunting.
It is by far the most effective, user friendly muzzleloader I have ever had the pleasure to lay my hands on.
When I first purchased mine, I jumped on this forum to engage in some discussion about the hunting tool that had so impressed me. I was amazed at how little acceptance it seems to have received. I was astounded that the smokeless muzzleloader hadn't already made the blackpowder rifle a forgotten relic. (just threw that in there to work a few people up!:neener:)
I have been criticized by family members I have hunted with and by fellow shooters at the range I built up my loads at. Cries of "it's not fair to hunt with", "it's against the intention of the muzzleloader season" and "I've seen them blown up all over the internet" came at me from all directions.
My own dad called me on the phone warning me not to hunt around a couple cousins and uncles because of the sore feelings I would elicit.
The real truth of matter is this.
The rifle has many features that put it in a class of it's own, but as with many firearm related areas, the user must be informed, responsible and capable. This, I fear, is why the rifle has insurers on their tippy toes.
The rifle does not need to be cleaned. Nearly ever. Serious.
This will get a few folks upset at me, I'm sure, but it's the truth.
Diligent owners may clean it as often as they like, but it's not REQUIRED to function. That is a serious advantage when hunting away from home.
After a few shots with a blackpowder rifle, some form of cleaning is demanded by the difficulty in seating bullets.
The "vent liner" is a the rifle component that seals the 209 primer between itself and the bolt. The part is essentially a small screw with a hole drilled through its center. This hole is where the primer flash travels to ignite the powder. The vent liner has a wear life, recommended to be changed every 100 shots. Most reports of rifle failure are due to faulty vent liners which have not received the necessary maintenance. I change mine once a year, when I clean my rifle to put it away at the end of muzzleloader season. My lgs supplies them at 3 for $6.
Contrary to popular misconception, the rifle does not endow the hunter with some unfair advantage afield that other muzzleloaders do not with respect to lethal range.
On par with other modern frontstuffers, my Savage throws a 250gr SST at approximately 2100-2200 fps. Zeroed at 200 yards, it hits 2 1/2" high at 100 yards. I have no idea what it does after 200 yards, as I have never fired it at an animal past that.
I think this is right in the same ballpark as the TC Prohunters my buddies use.
My understanding is that each rifle is proof tested with a double charge, so it would be hard to blow up. Especially when utilizing a witness mark on the ram rod(which is a good practice anyway) contrary to much internet chatter. My charges so far have been forgiving with respect to load density. I try to use the same force to seat the bullet and sabot on the charge, but without a witness mark it is susceptible to interpretation. Even considering this inconsistency, accuracy does not seem to suffer. The charges need to be weighed, which might inconvenience non hand loaders, but my shop is outfitted with scales, so I pre measure about two dozen loads in little tubes and am usually set for the season.
It is not a magic muzzleloader. If you shoot at animals that are too far away, you are in no way going to be more successful than if you shoot at something with a 300 wsm that's too far away. My Savage will consitently group about 2-3 inches at 200 yards. I find that to be amazing.
The slow moving big ole SST ML really drifts in wind when slinging them out there a long ways, but that would be the case with any .45 caliber bullet moving at similar velocity.
Now that I have ranted, I will step down from the podium and let anyone else tell me why their experience has be unlike my own.
Show the Savage ML-10 II some love! After all it's Valentines day!
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top