Why can't people place their shots?

[gunfan]

It is a simple matter of consistent (read: repeated) training and "trigger control" through "muscle motor memory."

Take either a small to medium-bore autoloader and/or revolver. and learn to draw, as well as shoot regularly, placing your shots within a 3-4" circle at a range of 10-15 feet. (Any shooting much beyond that could be considered 'questionable' when it comes to a self-defense shooting scenario.)

Bullet placement is obviously the prime directive when it comes to saving one's own life, and the lives of others. Power is wonderful, but proper placment of the projectiles used for such a purpose is everything!

This is why I will not hesitate to use a .32 S&W Long, .32 Auto, .380 ACP, .38 S&W Special and higher. just as long as I can place them where I want them!

IMHO, this is the type of training that civilians need to defend themselves and others. No one gives a damn if "mine is bigger than yours" if you can't strike the objective and terminate the threat.

Scott

 

[Boss Spearman]

I concur. I was placing my shots this past weekend, shooting at 15 feet, and this guy came up behind me and started informing me my practice was being wasted, as all FBI reports say anything under 21 feet results in the attacker winning against the defender (me) 100% of the time. 100%!

Well, my NRA instructor told us when we took the self defense class that the greater percentage of self defense incidents occur at 15 feet and less, and we should practice at that distance. I think I'll take his word over a visitor to the range.

As for bigger is better, I feel very safe with my wimpy 9mms.

 

[jehu]

While shot placement is good to practice I think that in a real world gun fight excitement,mental anguish,adrenaline,and movement for defensive purpose would make concentrated shot placement difficult at best. Speedy accurate point shooting is a better exercise IMO. As for caliber size dose make a difference.

 

[TexasRifleman]

at a range of 10-15 feet. (Any shooting much beyond that could be considered 'questionable' when it comes to a self-defense shooting scenario.)

Consider reading up on the Tueller Drill and then raise that number to at least 21 feet.

 

[BHPshooter]

I agree to an extent: I believe a person should start out by getting their skills up at about 3 yards, then 7, then 10, and perhaps further.

The person saying that you have "lost 100% of the time under 21 feet," is somewhat mistakenly referring to the Tueller Drill. Even at 21 feet (7 yards), you still have a chance, although I would say it's about 50/50.

As for bigger is better, I feel very safe with my wimpy 9mms.

Ha! Do you ever notice how people will say that you are well armed with a .38 Special, but that you shouldn't bother with those pathetic 9mms? Personally, knowing that I have my Hi Power with 14 rounds of 9mm on tap makes me feel all warm and fuzzy.

Wes

 

[Kramer Krazy]

.....placing your shots within a 3-4" circle at a range of 10-15 feet. (Any shooting much beyond that could be considered 'questionable' when it comes to a self-defense shooting scenario.)

I usually practise at 15 yards, mainly because it is more comfortable for me, and because I feel that shorter distances will be "easier". If I want to do some very rapid, pointing/not aiming, defensive shooting at a B-27 target, I like to bring it in to 7-10 yards. Depending on my mood and the gun, I can blister the cr*p out of a B-27 "X" ring or head as fast as I can pull the trigger.....as you said, it takes practise.

I also like to practise quickly aimed shots at 15 yards (sometimes 25) and have my wife do it for one reason.....a rash of car-jackings the last year or two, with several in this area, recently. You add in a 10-month old strapped to a car seat, a handicapped wife, and a new car, and you never know when you may have to do a headshot to save the kid. It will probably never happen as long as our guard is always up and don't put ourselves in a situation where this may happen, but, it's always nice to know that you have the training to handle this.

What really irks me is the number of people with concealment permits who haven't shot their gun in over a year. A buddy of mine hadn't shot his gun in three years when I got him to go to the range with the wife and me last year. He hasn't fired the gun since, either.

 

[pcf]

Who needs to worry about shot placement. Trigger control, Sight picture, and breath control are so 1950.

Modern gun fights are won with tactical controlled expansion hollow points, tactical laser sights, tactical controlled pairs, tactical light rails, tactical double taps, tactical movement, tactical night sights, and tactical reloads.

The average shooter that I encounter cannot consistently put 10rds in a 12" circle at 15'. Why bother trying to improve, when there are so "expert-approved" panaceas to poor shooting. Every expert knows that standing in front of a B27 at the range developing, practicing, and maintaining the fundamentals of shooting will get you killed.

Self defense isn't hunting season. You don't get to pass because your not comfortable with the shot.

 

[pax]

Accurate doesn't matter if you can't do it fast.

Fast doesn't matter if you can't do it accurately.

Neither matters if you got shot too, so being fast and accurate on the move is necessary. Preferably moving toward cover or at least concealment.

Oh, and can you consistently hit a moving target? Attackers rarely stand still...

(Simulpost with pcf, so edited to add pcf is utterly correct that the basics have to be practiced! You can't do fast & accurate on the move, while your target is moving too, unless you have mastered the basics.)

pax

 

[halvey]

My carry training and subsequent training was in point shooting. I'm not sure if I totally buy it.

BTW, if you look closely, most "point shooting" is coarsely aimed fire.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

gunfan, that has to be one of the most naive posts on self defense shooting that I have ever read.

The notion that a shooting at more than 10-15 ft is questionable for self defense is blatantly false. Where did you learn this information? Do lethal threats cease to be a threat to you if they are 15 feet away or more? Of course not.

FYI, shot placement doesn't mean crap without penetration. Some of your smaller calibers that you can shoot well are not exactly known as great penetrators or great damagers of soft tissue.

The type of training you think civilians need to defend themselves, if followed, will be the type of training that results in a lot of civilians getting killed by the bad guys because apparently they thought they would be protected by their guns while standing out in the open and trying to shoot bad guys. I got news for you, guns and ammo make form pitiful armor or cover. Why do you think the cops and military wear body armor? It is because shooting at the enemy doesn't stop the incoming rounds.

So as you stand there, out in the open, placing all your shots from a puny caliber in the center of some bad guy's chest, keep in mind that the puny caliber likely won't provide an instant stop and so the bad guy will return fire and potentially hit you. You may manage to stop the bad guy with your great shot placement, but that won't mean squat if you end up dead as well.

Contrary to your decree, bullet placement isn't the prime directive when it comes to saving one's life or the live's of loved ones. The prime directive is to not get injured or killed. Things like, flight, armor, cover, and distance from your threat call all help reduce the possibility of your threat being successful in putting you down, but you apparently don't have any need for these sorts of things.

 

[gunfan]

Dear double naught spy:

I can shoot my 10mm Auto with full-power loads quite well, thank you. My Glock 20 with stout loads is performing "nightstand duty" as we speak.

I still feel that bullet placement is the prime directive. If you can't place the bullet on the target in the proper place, all the power in the world will not help you. "A hit with a .22 LR beats a miss with a .45." Poor marksmanship will definitely get you killed. No doubt about it!

Practice, practice, practice.

Scott

 

[pax]

FYI, shot placement doesn't mean crap without penetration.

True.

And penetration doesn't mean crap without shot placement.

And neither penetration nor shot placement means a dang thing if you can't get the hits out there fast enough to stop him before he puts a hole in you.

Lotsa ways to lose a gunfight.

pax

 

[El Tejon]

Everything is something, nothing is everything.

I've had .25s, .32s and .38s all bounce off people's noggins in real fights. In training I have seen .223s bounce off the brims of baseball cap brims.

Beware the GSCs who tell you this or that is "all you need." What is really needed is not to get into a fight.

 

[dxkj21]

I concur. I was placing my shots this past weekend, shooting at 15 feet, and this guy came up behind me and started informing me my practice was being wasted, as all FBI reports say anything under 21 feet results in the attacker winning against the defender (me) 100% of the time. 100%!

Well, my NRA instructor told us when we took the self defense class that the greater percentage of self defense incidents occur at 15 feet and less, and we should practice at that distance. I think I'll take his word over a visitor to the range.

As for bigger is better, I feel very safe with my wimpy 9mms.

Especially with all 15-20 of them (depending on gun/mag)

 

[Frandy]

Deleted...3rdpig said it so much better.

 

[3rdpig]

Well apparently we all have differing opinions of what's most important in a gunfight. Here's mine.

1. Avoid getting into a gunfight. Stay alert, back off, dive under something, run like the dickens, do whatever's necessary to remove yourself from the vicinity.
2. Once in a gunfight avoid making a good target out of yourself, use cover, distance, movement, anything to make yourself hard to hit.
3. Shoot, if necessary, from behind cover or when moving, accuratly, quickly and with a reasonably powerful caliber.
4. Don't stop shooting until the threat is gone.
5. Scan for other threats.
6. Call Police to make report.
7. If you've survived this far try to learn better how to avoid the fight in the first place.

Of course if you're standing 10 feet from your opponent, in open ground with no cover, then your only hope might be to outdraw them and stop them before they can get off a shot. Or hope they're an awful shot. At very close range I might be more inclined to engage them physically before engaging in a gunfight. Chances are there would only be losers at that distance once guns are drawn. If I could physically engage I might prevent a shot from being fired, or at least prevent it from being fired at me. Tough choice.

 

[TheEgg]

You can do absolutely everything right, and still die.

 

[Boss Spearman]

If you practice enough to place your shots where you need to under stressful conditions, caliber does not make any difference, at least not from .38 special, 9mm on up.

I've yet to find someone who thinks anything under a .45 is a non-stopper that is willing to step in front of a 9mm and let the rounds come at them.

The fact is a handgun in general is a somewhat poor man-stopper, no matter what the caliber.

 

[Custard]

1. Avoid getting into a gunfight. Stay alert, back off, dive under something, run like the dickens, do whatever's necessary to remove yourself from the vicinity.

It's nice to see someone else say that. For me the question "What would you bring to a gunfight?" always produced a cognitinve dissonance. Why the heck would anyone go to a gunfight? When I was a cop my answer was generally "The SWAT team?" but now that I don't have to go I don't plan on going.

Someone else can play macho. I proved myself more than enough in genuine life and death situations. I don't need to do it again.

Now if you get stuck at a gunfight... Then what pax said.

Dan

 

[gunfan]

I never denied the fact that "cover" was important.

Running away is a good idea, so is locating a place of defensible cover. The ability to place your shots well can cover 'a multitude of shortcomings.'

Ther are MANY important factors in a 'self-defense' situation. The ability to shoot well may not keep you from being killed, but the lack thereof, will definitely but you at a higher risk of either death, or grievous bodily injury.

Scott

 

[KONY]

... always produced a cognitinve dissonance ...

Yikes! That psychological jargon is hard to shake-off, huh?!

 

[mattdus]

I agree that the best thing to do is get the heck out of there. People need to practice. most of the time if someone draws a weapon on you it will be from 10 feet or less and the fact is that by the time you can get your weapon drawn that distance will likely be down to 3 or 4 feet. If you cant clear your holster and place shots quickly your done, all the more reason to practice until your up to speed and continue to practice to maintain that speed. If you can consistently place your shots close to center mass at 15 yards on the range then you can do fine at close range. However I still strongly recommend you get out of the area instead if possible.

 

[Cosmoline]

I've moved away from bullseye and accuracy shooting with handguns over the past few years. These days I do what I call "slam drills" with my SP101, just blasting out five after five after five using speed loaders and shooting double action. I do it until it seems second nature. I get a soild five inch group at ten yards, and after awhile there's just a large hole in the target. I concentrate on firing as fast as possible while still keeping it aimed. If I need to use the little revolver for defense, I'm going to need to use it FAST and dump all five into the other guy. I'm not going to count on a one aimed shot stop with any handgun this side of a Casull.

 

[Jamie C.]

It is a simple matter of consistent (read: repeated) training and "trigger control" through "muscle motor memory."

Yep, it is.... Right up until you have to deal with a target that shoots back..... or one that could land you in prision for hitting.

The human mind is a strange thing, and it reacts quite differently to non-life threatening situations than it does the other kind.

So, punching paper at 15 feet is a whole 'nother animal than shooting at another human being.... especially with all the crap that goes through your mind when your life is in danger.

Any way, it's just far more complicated than simply pulling a trigger and keeping the sights lined up. *shrug*


J.C.

 

[Ichiro]

I've moved away from bullseye and accuracy shooting with handguns over the past few years. These days I do what I call "slam drills" with my SP101, just blasting out five after five after five using speed loaders and shooting double action. I do it until it seems second nature. I get a soild five inch group at ten yards, and after awhile there's just a large hole in the target. I concentrate on firing as fast as possible while still keeping it aimed. If I need to use the little revolver for defense, I'm going to need to use it FAST and dump all five into the other guy. I'm not going to count on a one aimed shot stop with any handgun this side of a Casull.

Interesting, I practice very similarly at the range with my SP-101 without use of the sights. What type of ammo do you use with this drill?

~Ichiro