Why DAO only triggers?

[GRIZ22]

For LEO's, I can kind of understand - a nervous cop with a hair trigger might accidentally waste a shoplifter or their tactical gloves might set off an AD hitting their buddy in front, but why do some US civilians insist on a DAO trigger on an auto?


Don't you think a civilian can be nervous and have an AD? I personally have no use for a DAO auto. I've not talking a Glock type action which is classified as a DA by ATF because there was noithing like it when Glock came to the US in the 80s. One of the reasons DAO came about is not only LEOs but others wanted a consistent trigger pull and high capacity. A traditional DA/SA auto is not hard to master but leaving out the SA did away with one more task to train. DAO is not a crutch for the poorly trained just another system designed to meet a demand.

 

[warnerwh]

I'd certainly like to see people shoot as accurately at the range shooting double action as well or better than single action. Personally I'd say this is very unusual due to the fact of the long trigger pull. Whoever said you concentrate better shooting DA has no idea what they're talking about. I've been punching paper for 35 years. My apologies for being blunt but I am being honest also.

There's a good reason DA is only used in competition when it's required. I can just see someone trying to hit the turkeys at 150 meters shooting double action or for that matter the chickens at 50 meters on a silhouette range. Trigger control is extremely important even when you barely have to pull it. Who would shoot at a deer at 75 yards double action when they can shoot single action. If you can shoot better double action than single action I hope your gun is DAO.

DAO came in just as stated above about 20 years ago. I see no advantage in any situation for DA shooting from targets to SD. However with a revolver, I only use revolvers, you're stuck with double action in SD. If self defense is the only reason you shoot then DA is a viable choice but only if you use a revolver due to the fact you can get SA/DA autos. At least I would personally feel better off

 

[Pizzagunner]

I have plenty enough experience to determine that most of the DAO shooters I have encountered are A) mandated to have it and forced to live with it like it or not, or B) mouth breathers afraid of leaving a safety on, or C) Revolver shooters, where DA is standard and DAO appears mainly in the form of the Centennial, which is actually a cool piece of hardware.

 

[LaBulldog]

DAO is the same trigger pull every shot, much like a revolver.

 

[David E]

UKJ: I always get my best results at the range with a single action trigger and if I'm using a wheelgun, I always cock the hammer first to ensure a smooth trigger pull.

Yes, it's easier for the casual shooter to be more accurate with a single action gun. The smart shooter masters DA mechanisms.

If I were to carry, then a DA/SA with an exposed hammer and a decocker would probably be my preferred option.

And you might very well find out that your preferred single action handgun of choice for the RANGE won't cut it for CCW on the street.

Again, I'd like to point out that my question about DAO only refers to full sized, civilian owned, auto pistols - not LE weapons or CCWs - where a strong case for DAO is perfectly viable.

Then didn't you answer your own question?

For strictly shooting guns at the range for fun and pure recreation, it matters very little what the action type is. For CCW or home defense, it matters quite a bit.

The number of self inflicted accidental handgun injuries in the US is astronomical.

No, it's not. In fact, accidental shootings have decreased significantly.

Similarly, I suspect that there are a lot of new shooters who are nervous or have little confidence with firearms. If this is the case, I can understand why they would want a DAO pistol, but I don't believe they should own one (or any firearm) within 5 miles of me.

Ah, but no one cares what you believe!

From your posts, you seem to think that your skill with a single action auto is pretty good. I'm curious what gun(s) you're using and calling single action autos and what you think "pretty good" is with a handgun.

.

 

[David E]

Pizzagunner: I have plenty enough experience to determine that most of the DAO shooters I have encountered are... mouth breathers afraid of leaving a safety on....

I've only had 35 years experience, but I've not noticed this.

Perhaps you could share your experience with us.

For example, is your wife a mouth breather because she's not as excited about guns as you are so isn't comfortable with a cocked and locked 1911?

Is she a mouth breather if she's afraid of forgetting to take the safety off (or missing it under stress) when a 300# knife-wielding rapist is kicking down the bedroom door? And because of this concern, she wants something SIMPLER, but with capacity, that means she's a mouth breather?

.

 

[GLOOB]

One theory is that most SD scenarios involve 0-1 shots fired... at moving people, not stationary targets.

In this were true, a DA/SA seems to be the exact opposite of ideal. Especially if all you do is practice SA shooting.

If you take your Glock and your Beretta 92 to the range and practice with 50 rounds each, you've practiced the most important shot 50 times with the Glock and maybe 4 times with the Beretta.

 

[MrBorland]

I apologise if I've taken my own post off topic by linking it with the firearm safety aspects. I'd also like to apologise to MrBorland, I may have interpreted his post in an aggressive way and responded inappropriately.

UKJ - Nothing aggressive or inappropriate in your reply. I got my knickers in a knot a bit myself, so my apologies, too.

I didn't answer the "why DAO" question because I found if you apply the fundamentals, all trigger types and handgun platforms shoot fine. Yes, then, I think it comes down to shooter preference, so the more choices, the better.

 

[UKJ]

Hi DavidE,

In answer to your many questions / assumptions / opinions -

I agree, a smart shooter should be able to master DA mechanisms. And if I needed to, then I would. But it does seem pointless when I have a much simpler, more accurate option that I've already trained with and mastered.

My preferred pistols at the range have been used for decades by military and police both overtly and covertly - so they would cut it on the street.

I answered my own question with regards to small CCW pistols that you might want to stick in your pocket. Not full sized autos in a holster. For home defense, I'll stick with what I know.

Accidental shootings may have decreased, but not to a level I'm comfortable with. If I infer by your comment that accidental shootings have decreased due to the number of safeties and DAO triggers, then it just proves my point that there are a lot of careless people out there with loaded guns.

And obviously, people may or may not care what I believe. From first hand experience, I have seen people do some idiotic and potentially life threatening things at gun ranges through ignorance or lack of training. I don't consider this a belief but fact. Luckily I have You Tube as evidence to back up my worst fears about ill trained shooters.

It's hard to answer your last assumption about my skills at the range, I'd like to think that I'm a competent and fairly accurate shooter (but then again, doesn't everone else on this forum think that about themselves?).

Finally, my weapons of choice on the range and in no particular order - Browning Hi-Power, Sig P226, Browning Buck Mark, Colt Government and Commander, CZ 75 and what I can borrow from friends - the occassional Beretta or HK. Not the widest or most exotic choices in handguns, but I supplement this with rifle and shotgun shooting.

Apologies to other board members who've had to sit and read through this lengthy post.

 

[logical]

Pizza quote:

DAO is a firm favorite of the poorly trained and the "can't walk and chew gum at the same time" crowd.

Lots of overlap and lots of badges in those two groups. Face it, most cops shoot way fewer rounds per year than most gun enthusiasts. It is best that their manual of arms is dumbed down.

You can continue to post this every 3 or 4 hours but it will still be drivel. A DAO type weapon like a Sig DAK is a good choice for most any CCW situation. I think you are getting too caught up in the gun magazine mystique of the magical 1911.

 

[CDW4ME]

I've got 1911 Colts and revolvers that can be cocked, if they hold a small accuracy advantage at the range that's irrelevant to concealed carry; a Ruger 22 with a bull barrel has great accuracy, but lacks stopping power.

I strongly prefer Glocks or Kahr as a carry pistol, Kel-Tec 380 as a back-up (sometimes due to circumstances the 380 may serve as only weapon). If I carry a revolver, it's a S&W 442 that cannot be cocked or a 638 with the shrouded hammer (I would not cock it for self defense, nor do I in practice).

I've carried 1911 variants cocked & locked before and I always felt compelled to lower the hammer when I got home, not real safe; I didn't like leaving the gun fully cocked all the time either.

DAO pistols like the Glock and Kahr offer plenty of accuracy, safety, and piece of mind.

 

[David E]

I agree, a smart shooter should be able to master DA mechanisms. And if I needed to, then I would.

Since you don't carry a gun, it's possible that you'd have to do a "battlefield pickup" and use the gun on scene, whatever it is, quickly and efficiently.

My preferred pistols at the range have been used for decades by military and police both overtly and covertly - so they would cut it on the street.

But would they cut it.........for you ?

I answered my own question with regards to small CCW pistols that you might want to stick in your pocket. Not full sized autos in a holster.

That's not what you said in post # 16, unless you're referring to backup guns cops carry in their pocket and think that all CCW holders only carry compact pocket guns.

For home defense, I'll stick with what I know.

Always a good idea !

If I infer by your comment that accidental shootings have decreased due to the number of safeties and DAO triggers, then it just proves my point that there are a lot of careless people out there with loaded guns.

And you said _I_ made assumptions?? Fatal gun accidents declined by almost sixty percent from 1975 to 1995, even though the number of guns per capita increased by almost forty percent. Note that from 1975 to 1985+, DAO autos didn't exist to any significant degree in America.
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvacci.html

It's hard to answer your last assumption about my skills at the range, I'd like to think that I'm a competent and fairly accurate shooter

I made no such assumption. I merely asked you what you thought your skill level is, as your posts imply that you think you're pretty good. Have you had any formal training ? To establish a minimum skill level do this: using a shot timer, (not a stopwatch!) starting with hands at sides, how fast can you draw (unconcealed) and put 6 rounds on a paper plate at 5 yds?

Finally, my weapons of choice on the range and in no particular order - Browning Hi-Power, Sig P226, Browning Buck Mark, Colt Government and Commander, CZ 75

For CCW or home defense, the gun choices, caliber and mode of carry/readiness become important factors.

Which one of those would you grab first?

In what state of readiness do you keep your Colt? Would you remember to decock your 226 after you shot someone? Would you remember to reapply the safety on your Hi-Power?

For range shooting, any gun of adequate quality will suffice. From your posts, it seems that range shooting is your sole focus here, and that's fine. Have fun.

 

[AK103K]

Whoever said you concentrate better shooting DA has no idea what they're talking about. I've been punching paper for 35 years. My apologies for being blunt but I am being honest also.

I've got about 10 years on you, and I have a good bit of time with both SA and DA guns. I'm not doubting your experiences, but I also have to ask, how much of it is based on shooting DAO?

SA has its place, and for precision, bullseye type target shooting using light loads, its pretty hard to beat, but for pretty much anything else, DA is the only way to go, but especially if speed is needed (speed being both getting the gun into action and shooting quickly) .

Even for slow fire, precision shooting, DA has a very important place, especially when heavy recoiling guns are involved. What turned me on to DA shooting was a Model 29 .44 mag with a light SA trigger shooting heavy loads. I was having troubles making hits and keeping what I considered reasonable groups at longer ranges until an older friend, who was an ex cop and long time revolver shooter, recommended shooting DA, and for the reasons I previously stated. I was doubtful at first, but with a little practice, my groups soon shrank by close to half and I was hooked. I havent shot a DA revolver (or automatic with the capability) in SA since, and thats been a good 30+ years now.

I've shot quite a few groundhogs at 75-100 yards using a Model 28 and 29 S&W using only the DA trigger. These days, most of my revolvers arent even capable of SA shooting, as I've removed the SA notch and hammer spur on them, as well as smoothed and narrowed the triggers, especially on the guns that came with target triggers.

The biggest advantage here is, you stop being a trigger worrier and become a better overall shooter. You can pick up pretty much anything and have little difficulty shooting well with it. Those who shoot only light, SA triggers usually tend to be very limited in their skills. They may shoot very well with guns and triggers they are accustomed to, but if they have to use anything else, the excuses and complaints usually quickly arise.


If your still in doubt, just watch Jerry Miculek. Hes fast AND accurate and I've yet to see his thumb ever touch the hammer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsLx5ISBXw4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qovg0xA4Ao&feature=related

 

[usp9]

Why DAO only triggers?

I don't insist on a DAO, but I fully understand it's purpose. As one who has both drawn my pistol, had rounds come my way and been drawn on three seperate times by LEOs, I can comfirm that pucker factor has a good bit to do with many agencies adopting a safer, non-single action trigger. Many people are alive today (perhaps me among them), because the number of accidental shootings is lower due to certain trigger qualities. Unfortunately poor discipline and fear override any safety factors occationally.

Consistent excellent accuracy is not hard to accomplish with any of the modern DAO pistols available today. Some folks here have confused sports target shooting with defensive or LE use of a weapon. They are different and require different tools.

Personally I have carried mostly DA/SA pistols in the 34 years I've carried, and have done so primarily as a safety feature to avoid a premature shot in a tense situation. I've tried many of the DAO triggers and I've found them to be just as easy to shoot well as any other carry weapon trigger. Some of them are excellent, such as the Walther QA, the HK LEM, Sphinx, even Kahr makes a good trigger. I can shoot the Walther QA just as well as my HK on SA.

Fear not the DAO.

 

[Deanimator]

The reason is mostly split between police safety and liability issues.

A LOT of cops shoot as little as possible. That creates an instant conflict between the capacity of a modern semi-auto and the simplicity of a revolver.

While you CAN cock the hammer of the typical revolver, once it's down, it STAYS down, until you cock it again or pull the trigger. A marginally competent cop who shoots an SA or DA/SA auto, ends up with a cocked hammer and a light trigger pull every time he fires. That gives him a lot of opportunity to display poor trigger discipline, either pointing his firearm at a suspect (and YOU could be a suspect without doing ANYTHING) or reholstering. With the DAO, he doesn't have to remember anything but keeping his finger off the trigger and his firearm pointed in a safe direction until it needs to be fired. And some people can't master those concepts either.

The DAO trigger throws additional stumbling blocks between an indifferent shooter and an accident. Of course only rendering the firearm INCAPABLE of firing will prevent a negligent person from having a negligent discharge.

I like the Glock "Safe Action" trigger. I utterly DESPISE every DAO type trigger I've ever tried, and most DA/SAs in DA mode. For the price of a box of Q-Tips and some Flitz, I can get a VERY smooth trigger in a Glock (or S&W M&P). I can do the same in a DAO Beretta or S&W... for a substantial portion of the cost of the gun itself in gunsmithing fees. But I wouldn't waste the money anyway because the reach to the trigger is far too long to be comfortable. I passed on a CZ75B because the reach was way too long, and it's a much better pistol to me than the Beretta OR the S&W.

A more obscure reason, pointed out by writer Massad Ayoob, is the negation of spurious arguments by malicious prosecutors or civil attorneys that someone "accidentally" shot someone that they INTENTIONALLY shot, because their hammer COULD have been cocked. DAO, blows that one out of the water on its face.

Shoot what you like. I like Glocks, SA autos, and conventional SA/SA revolvers.

 

[UKJ]

My goodness, I've inadvertantly opened a big can of worms with regards to my dislike of DAO triggers.

The original post which contained the words - civilian, full size and auto pistol seems to have been lost somewhat in this thread, but the DA shooters have certainly given me food for thought.

The truth of the matter is that I don't carry, I live in a nice area, don't buy drugs, don't have to carry cash / diamonds / nuclear materials as part of my job and I'm pretty switched on.

My shooting is exclusively recreational, particularly when I can get on my friend's farm and can practice some drills or 'blow stuff up'.

I haven't been in a fist fight for years never mind a gun fight, so I don't spend my time living in fear worrying that I'll be attacked by muggers / crack heads / zombies / etc. - which might be my eventual downfall, but I'll be enjoying life in the meantime.

If I were to find myself going into a situation where a firearm would be required, then I'll take my BHP or P226 with me (depending on clothing factors). For home defense I'll grab my Mossy 590.

I have yet to find myself in a situation where someone throws me a DA pistol and says 'Cover me!' as we're being shot at. If I did, I think trigger pull would be the last thing on my mind - with running away being the first.

We could play 'What if...' games all day, but it won't change my dislike of DAO auto pistols.

 

[AK103K]

The truth of the matter is that I don't carry, I live in a nice area, don't buy drugs, don't have to carry cash / diamonds / nuclear materials as part of my job and I'm pretty switched on.

Other than the "dont carry" part, same here. I do carry every day though, and have for about 30+ years now.

Where you live and when you will need a gun is pretty much an anytime, anywhere thing, and has little to do with anything other than you will need it when you do, no matter where you are, and for any reason you might need it.

I have yet to find myself in a situation where someone throws me a DA pistol and says 'Cover me!' as we're being shot at. If I did, I think trigger pull would be the last thing on my mind - with running away being the first.

Since you dont always have a gun on you, your actually in more of a position of needing the skills involved with shooting DA or DAO, since you may well have to put something to work that your not familiar with, especially if you cant run away.

While we could play "what if" all day, those of use who shoot ALL the different platforms without issue simply say, "whats it matter" or "who cares". Its a non issue for us, anywhere, anytime, any scenario.

Hey, I drive things that use a clutch too, but thats a whole other "what if". Know what I mean Vern?

 

[Deanimator]

The truth of the matter is that I don't carry, I live in a nice area, don't buy drugs, don't have to carry cash / diamonds / nuclear materials as part of my job and I'm pretty switched on.

Tinley Park, Illinois seemed like a "nice area" the times I've been there. That didn't stop a guy from shooting six women in the head, execution style, killing five of them.

I haven't been in a fist fight for years never mind a gun fight, so I don't spend my time living in fear worrying that I'll be attacked by muggers / crack heads / zombies / etc. - which might be my eventual downfall, but I'll be enjoying life in the meantime.

Pretending that somebody won't rob you is as foolish as spending every waking hour obsessing on somebody doing it.

If I were to find myself going into a situation where a firearm would be required, then I'll take my BHP or P226 with me (depending on clothing factors). For home defense I'll grab my Mossy 590.

I'll bet those six women didn't think a firearm would be required when they were in that Lane Bryant store either...

 

[Guillermo]

DAO pistols were created so as to make all of the trigger pulls the same. After all, a SA (as opposed to a stiker fire) pistol has a long first trigger pull. The rest are short, light and precise.

A gun designer was challenged by a lawyer while doing tequila shooters to make all of the trigger pulls the same. In his drunken haze the designer came up with the only solution..."Let's mess them all up like that crappy 1st one....sure they will suck but they will be freakin indentical!!!" A new catagory of pistols was born...along with a couple of hangovers.

SAO revolvers are a way to remove a potentially clothes snagging appendage. It is not an elegant solution, analagous to removing your little toe to make your pointy toe cowboy boots more comfy.

 

[chris in va]

We could play 'What if...' games all day, but it won't change my dislike of DAO auto pistols.

That's fine, you have your opinions and the right to say them. However when you post crap like this...

Single Action Auto Pistols came before Double Action Revolvers? Can I borrow your time machine please?

...we lose all respect for whatever is said. The poster said single action, no mention of auto pistol.

As I pointed out my Kahr has what I like to call a 'light double action'. Same pull every time, reset is quite short compared to a revolver.

 

[Guillermo]

Chris,

What Kahr do you have?

The polymer Kahrs are the only ones that I am familiar with and they are striker fire, which is not DAO. Sure some people call them such but they are not. Double action is when the trigger "cocks" the action. Striker fire actions are already cocked. This is why many hate Glocks, XD's and Kahr's PM line.

 

[UKJ]

chris in va,

I think kyo's comment about single action being before double action was meant as a bit of a joke and I responded in kind. It was just a bit of fun IMO, hence the little emoticon sticking his tongue out.

As my initial post was all about Single Action Auto Pistols and not Single Action Revolvers, I thought it was a fair comment to make.

I'm sorry if you saw it as me being disrespectful.

As for the other 'What if...' posts, again anything is possible - from being shot by a psycho to being hit by a stray meteorite. I think something really drastic would have to happen in the neighbourhood before I would consider carrying every day.

 

[Knightrider03m]

I only got my DAO gun because I don't want the hammer to catch on any part of my shirt, holster, or pants if I have to pull it out on someone.

 

[David E]

UKJ originally posted this:

Why DAO only triggers?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can I ask why some shooters insist on a DAO (or variant thereof) for their full sized auto pistols?

He has since been given a slew of reasons "why." Not one of them tried to convince HIM to not dislike them. No one cares what UKJ likes or dislikes.

UKJ: I always get my best results at the range with a single action trigger and if I'm using a wheelgun, I always cock the hammer first to ensure a smooth trigger pull.

That's because UKJ is merely a casual shooter with minimal skill, which is fine. But many of us have decided to master the various actions out there for fun and other reasons.

Yet, I've found that a great many of "casual/recreational shooters" seem to think that their minimal skill makes them "pretty damn good" with their gun and will have ample skill to draw upon should they ever have to shoot for blood. I hope that turns out to be the case.....

I'd still like to know in what state of readiness UKJ keeps his BHP in, should he have to reach for it FIRST at home, or if he could foretell the future and knew what day he'd need to carry it. I know he won't address the "draw and fire 6 shots on a paper plate" question.

UKJ seems to think that the only reason for carrying a gun is if you buy drugs, carry cash/diamonds/nuclear material..... And he thinks that folks using DAO's are too nervous and ignorant to own any gun within 5 miles of him and that a safety course should be required before a first gun can be purchased. Then he says he doesn't want to infringe on anyones's right to own one, but he "doesn't want to die, either," placing his aberrant fear ahead of anyone's right to own a gun.

This guy is on OUR side ?

 

[MCgunner]

DAO is a firm favorite of the poorly trained and the "can't walk and chew gum at the same time" crowd.

Ever been to a PPC match? Wanna try taking on Jerry Miculek with your 1911? Jerry would likely clean your clock with a Smith 686. That's where my money would be, anyway.

Personally, I like DA guns because I so often carry a revolver. I won't own ANYthing, but true DAO (not Glock safe action) in a pocket gun, but I do prefer a decocker DA for a service size gun. I have a KP90DC Ruger I love and the Sig decockers are fantastic. That's my preference in bigger guns. I don't consider Glocks to be DAO, that's "safe action", an oxymoron IMHO, but there you go, JMHO.

I really prefer my guns to fire DA at least on the first round out of the gun, though. Makes swapping the revolver for the auto much easier. A 1911 needs to be your only carry 24/7 and you need to own only 1911s for serious duty and practice only with them if you're going to carry a single action, again, JMHO. I love my revolvers too much to restrict my gun collection and DA shooting is quite natural for me and I'm quite accurate at up to 25 or 30 yards DA so long as it's a smooth DA trigger. I've beaten a lot of the "good shooters" with their 1911s using my lowly Kel Tec P11 in a couple of IDPA shoots just for the grins of it. When I shot my Rugers in IDPA, I was shooting expert level and beat up on a lot of lesser shooters with their 1911s. So, I think this statement is a bit off the mark. I don't actually like gum, but I can shoot a handgun pretty well.

As to why I carry 24/7 in a small town with little crime? I just don't wanna have to say "if I'd only had my gun", someday. I have used a gun once for defense, didn't have to shoot, ran the guy off. Hey, it happens. What good is knowing how to shoot anything if you don't have it with you when you need it?