Frog48
Member
Because there are people willing to pay it.
Why do good AKs cost as much as ARs?
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Because there are people willing to pay it.
Is that just a gross assumption you have in regards to ARs or are you actually speaking from experience? My AR will eat any kind of ammo and eat a ton of it without hesitation.
It's one thing to prefer one style of firearm over another but to assume all entry level ARs as POS parts kits that jam just makes you look stupid.
Parts kits? I think that applies more to AKs than ARs.
That said, still looking for the right AK. The WASR is attractive for the price.
stubbicatt
Member
The practical accuracy of the M95 is equivalent of the AR15a2, in my experience. The quick acquisition of the AK sights to me makes all the difference. It is just easier to sight down the rifle at ranges up to about 300 meters. After that the sights just seem to be a wild guess, at least for me.
Anyways.
To answer to the OP's question, it is an issue of market economics. People will pay what the manufacturers/retailers are charging, so they charge what they can.
Anyways.
To answer to the OP's question, it is an issue of market economics. People will pay what the manufacturers/retailers are charging, so they charge what they can.
A quality AK should never under any circumstances cost as much as a quality made AR. The fact that some of them do is because people are willing to pay it.
I don't have anything against AKs at all. I own three of them, but the AR is a much better weapon unless it's being issued to a caveman.
I think if you actually had AK's made completely of new parts by US companies with a similar market, I think the AK would cost similar to AR's. At least similar to the base model AR's. Labor and such are just higher priced in the US. I guess it is possible the price might fall into the mini14 range.
You really need to think about what you are saying. There are lots of examples of rifles with tough and functional iron sights that are much better than the AK's sights. M1A iron sights may be a bit more fragile, but I would much rather have them over what comes on a WASR. You could also put wings on the sights similar to an M1917. Hell, the AR iron sights are pretty dang solid and better as well. The HK 91 sights are another example.
Also, hitting a human (20 inches wide) at 200 yards is really nothing to brag about as far as accuracy goes. Any iron sights should be capable of better.
For me, I have one WASR in 5.45. It had some mag well problems but is pretty accurate. The sights are crude so setting the zero right is a pain. It is an ugly weapon and the action sounds like it full of gravel, but it does seem to work. I think they are probably worth buying, but assume you will have to do a little work. I am not sure about accuracy. My best impression is that it is pot luck. Some are accurate and some not at all.
I also have a Vepr and a converted Saiga that are beautiful, smooth firing, and more accurate than I am. I haven't finished zeroing in the Kobra sight on my Saiga so I haven't pushed its accuracy yet. I can say that if you can afford it, a better quality AK is worth the money. You may not want to may $800 for an Arsenal, but there are other options.
I also have a Vepr and a converted Saiga that are beautiful, smooth firing, and more accurate than I am. I haven't finished zeroing in the Kobra sight on my Saiga so I haven't pushed its accuracy yet. I can say that if you can afford it, a better quality AK is worth the money. You may not want to may $800 for an Arsenal, but there are other options.
takhtakaal
Member
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Pay once, cry once.
Almost every WASR whose dust cover I've peeped under has looked like it was on the other end of a wind tunnel blowing factory shavings and dust bunnies all over its goopy lubricant. I wouldn't run one of these unless it sat in a parts washer for a week.
If you want to go less than $400, delivered with FFL, from a Centerfire or a J&G, more power to you, but you may or may not be getting the trimmings that come with a slightly more expensive offering, like an optics rail on the side, or even a simple sling and cleaning kit. Moreover, you'll be getting something that may ship, whether or not it should, and that isn't the fault of the middlemen. They're just pushing boxes.
I got lucky with a Yugo UF from Century, pre-black plastic furniture. It's built like a tank, shoots straight, and consumes 7.62x39 with glee. It was worth having to pick up the extras myself, rather than buying them in one fell swoop from an Arsenal, Inc. But would I do it again? No way.
The extras that you don't get are the ones that aren't readily apparent: the fit, the finish (not just the outside), the care given over to the workmanship in putting together the components. If it's a matter of ever having to really need it, and not just for punching paper on Saturday afternoon, money guns tend to win. You may get lucky with a non-princess AK, and yes, it's the archer, not the bow, but fortune tends to favor the well-prepared.
Almost every WASR whose dust cover I've peeped under has looked like it was on the other end of a wind tunnel blowing factory shavings and dust bunnies all over its goopy lubricant. I wouldn't run one of these unless it sat in a parts washer for a week.
If you want to go less than $400, delivered with FFL, from a Centerfire or a J&G, more power to you, but you may or may not be getting the trimmings that come with a slightly more expensive offering, like an optics rail on the side, or even a simple sling and cleaning kit. Moreover, you'll be getting something that may ship, whether or not it should, and that isn't the fault of the middlemen. They're just pushing boxes.
I got lucky with a Yugo UF from Century, pre-black plastic furniture. It's built like a tank, shoots straight, and consumes 7.62x39 with glee. It was worth having to pick up the extras myself, rather than buying them in one fell swoop from an Arsenal, Inc. But would I do it again? No way.
The extras that you don't get are the ones that aren't readily apparent: the fit, the finish (not just the outside), the care given over to the workmanship in putting together the components. If it's a matter of ever having to really need it, and not just for punching paper on Saturday afternoon, money guns tend to win. You may get lucky with a non-princess AK, and yes, it's the archer, not the bow, but fortune tends to favor the well-prepared.
yhtomit
Member
benEzra -- where do you get that Kobra sight, and approx. how much ought I expect to pay for one? That looks like a killer addition.
timothy
timothy
Gun Wielding Maniac
Member
Well... I was regular army for 4 years, I've been NG for 4 more. I'm a small arms instructor for my state, which requires extensive knowlege of the M16 series rifle. I've helped train thousands of soldiers on the M16A2 and M4. I'm also a competitor on our state rifle and pistol team. We use M16's. I also own 2 AR's... a Stag Arms M4 and an Armalite match rifle.
During my time, I've also trained at numerous institutions, Gunsite, Front Sight, etc. The trouble people have at these classes always seems to come from parts guns, both AR and AK. I've never had trouble with a parts gun AR because I've never bothered building one. However, I have certainly handled and witnessed them in action. I've owned at one time or another, at least 30 AK's. I've built more. So, I would say yes, I do speak from experience.
aaronrkelly
Member
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So clean it then, problem solved. I tear every gun I buy down for a cleaning. My WASR got cleaned, same as my MAK90, Vector, Arsenal etc. I will agree it was dirtier then most and did have some metal shavings in it - which I attributed to Century dremeling out the magwell. Im sure they dont take the time to clean them after.
WASRs DO come with a sling, cleaning kit and a bayonet. They also DO have the optics rail on the side of the receiver. That is unless you buy the $300 gun without the bayo lug, the of course it doesnt come with the bayonet (and most likely not a cleaning kit) - still has the optics rail and sling though.
As to your statement about the middleman......I dont know of any place that does any type of volume that opens and REALLY checks over the guns. Ive ordered hundreds of guns online, from places like Century and also places like Buds Gun Shop. Ive gotten a bad gun here and there from all of them, even Buds. Every gun shop is a middleman, they all push boxes. I dont know of any manufacturer that sells directly to the public.....you HAVE to deal with middlemen. Not being able to inspect the gun is a byproduct of doing business online.
I agree here....my WASR lacks the fit and finish that my Vector Polish UF has. I have no doubt that the Vector is put together more carefully, checked over and has better QC. But I paid 2x the cost of the WASR for it, I PAID for that service. When you buy a WASR your not getting it.....but your not paying for it either. Check it over yourself, problem solved.
Id always prefer to have a nicer, more expensive gun.....but sometimes (hell, most times) my budget gets in the way. First rule of a gun fight, have a gun. Never seen such rule specify NICE gun. If TSHTF Id rather have a functioning WASR then still be saving for that Arsenal. I could see your point if the internet was rife with stories of WASRs falling apart, not working etc - but it just isnt there. A WASR is a perfectly serviceable, useful AK that merely lacks the fit and finish of a nicer, more expensive AK. Canted sights, mag wobble.....we hear about that often, mere annoyances compared to a gun not working.....and we dont hear of that often with the WASR.
If you have the money, buy a nicer gun, sure.......some of us DONT have the money. Personally when I started buying AKs, my first purchase was a WASR and 3K rounds. I spent the money I would have had on the nicer gun on ammo, guns dont work so well without it. Once I had the bases covered I bought some nicer AKs and tossed the WASR in the trunk. Since Ive sold it to my cousin.
KBintheSLC
Member
You are right, and I was not attempting to brag. However, the above is really the goal of a compact battle rifle is it not? You obviously missed my point. Better luck next time.
HorseSoldier
Member
Well, my issue ACOG is jumpable and doesn't run on batteries at all. Not only does it stretch the range of an AR to something much further than an iron-sighted AK can manage, it also boosts hit percentages at closer ranges. If I put a Docter or J Point red dot on top of it, battery life for them is measured in years, so supply drops for batteries is a bit of a moot point, and if both the ACOG and J Point can handle operating environments 15 minutes out of the Stone Age (i.e. Afghanistan), I think both will hang in a SHTF scenario.
An AimPoint can go quite a long while on one set of batteries. For that matter, an EOTech can go six months on one set of batteries unless you're looking at fighting a fire fight a week or something. Both optics can and have, also, survived use in combat conditions.
All of the above are highly effective multipliers of an individual weapon's effectiveness. Iron sights don't (usually) break, but they also are slower and deliver inferior accuracy for combat shooting. The point must have some merit to it, since the Russians (among others) are also big fans of something more advanced than irons on their weapons.
"I dont know of any manufacturer that sells directly to the public.....you HAVE to deal with middlemen. Not being able to inspect the gun is a byproduct of doing business online."
I eliminated the middle man, I built my own AKs and ARs. I know how it was built and by someone cares. I understand that not everyone can do that so they have to depend on others to do the job right. The more you pay for the firearm the more likely (ok not aways) it was built correctly.
I eliminated the middle man, I built my own AKs and ARs. I know how it was built and by someone cares. I understand that not everyone can do that so they have to depend on others to do the job right. The more you pay for the firearm the more likely (ok not aways) it was built correctly.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
I got it from Tantal, who in my opinion is The Man as far as AK optics go. I paid $179.00 about a year ago. There are several different models; mine is the EKP-8-02, which runs on a lithium coin cell (CR2325, I think, though it can supposedly use some others). He also sells a model (EKP-1S-03M) that runs on regular AA batteries, but it's slightly bulkier, and I decided I'd rather have the slimmer profile even if the batteries are harder to find. It does hold zero when removed and replaced, which is nice.
http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/
http://tantal.kalashnikov.guns.ru/kobra1.html
If you decide you want to purchase one, you can email him for current prices, and he'll respond in a day or two:
mailto:[email protected]
BTW, when I first got the optic, I started a thread on it here that you may find informative.
Not you bragging, the rifle. I wasn't trying to pound on you. I just think the AK irons are somewhat crude and an older design. Better iron sight designs are out there.
I agree on the 200 yard goal, but that includes the error of the average soldier. The rifle itself should be much better off the bench. The AK could do a lot better consistently with some basic improvements to its iron sights. I don't think such improvements would substantially take away from the ruggedness of the rifle. The Swiss K31's sights are little small, but they are very sharp and precise. It is easy to line up an accrate shot with them.
I don't know the answer. Just the fact that so many people improve by using optics or red dots says something to me.
Just my opinion though.
if you were talking about a brand new six or seven hundred dollar ak or ar,i would take the ak.a seven hundred dollar ak is pretty high end,a seven hundred dollar ar is pretty low end.im not talking about a parts gun,if you want a nice ar for that amount, you can build it.
Pfooey.....
Using your logic I'd just as soon get a Hi-Point as a Browning Hi-Power.
Uh, no.
I don't just want "bang" - I want a quality piece of equipment that I enjoy owning and shooting.
For some people, it's not just about utility - it's also about enjoyment.
And my Vector AK cost me $529. And it's a great firearm. High quality manufacture, reliable, accurate as I need or desire (and I'm reasonably picky) - where's the problem?
nalioth
Member
My logic would state that asmeef said:
"I'd just as soon get a [Hungarian FEG PJK-9HP][Fabrica Militar Hi-Power] as a Browning Hi-Power.
An AK is an AK is an AK (not something entirely different)
stubbicatt
Member
There are more than just subtle differences between AKs. Some are better than others in fit, finish, and accuracy. Compare the Valmet versions, the Galil, and South African Galils, even the Robinson Arms' recent offering. Same basic design, but it would be hard to dispute that there are differences between them.
Would you pay as much for a WASR as you would for a Galil or a Valmet? If not, why not? You might ask it the other way, if the same price, which would you choose, the WASR or the Valmet? Why?
So that's the difference.
Would you pay as much for a WASR as you would for a Galil or a Valmet? If not, why not? You might ask it the other way, if the same price, which would you choose, the WASR or the Valmet? Why?
So that's the difference.
nalioth
Member
Stubbicat, I think we're getting a little off track here.
Galils, Valmets, XCRs, SU-16s, etc are all derivatives in some way of the Kalashnikov. Fodder for another thread?
We're discussing actual Kalashnikov designs here.
Galils, Valmets, XCRs, SU-16s, etc are all derivatives in some way of the Kalashnikov. Fodder for another thread?
We're discussing actual Kalashnikov designs here.
tombogan03884
Member
Ever read Shotgun news, Sarco's has Hi cap WASR 10's for $314, Inter Ordanance has 7.62 OR .223 AK's for $375 You people are fools to be spending all that money on something that never was and never will be a bench rest gun. If you want a precision rifle BUY A PRECISION RIFLE and quit complaining when your 2or 3 moa designed rifle only shoots 2 or 3 moa.
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