Cheapest AR (Oly) vs. mid-range AK? (Vector)

[tradja]

For some time, my "next" purchase to round out my budding collection has been a mil-style semi auto ("EBR", but doesn't have to be black), for plinking, collecting, and SHTF, in that order. My HD and SD bases are already covered by other weapons. I am not a rifle hunter, or a comp shooter. The recent thread "What rifle do you plan to buy this year before they are all banned?" has hastened my search.

I've been stuggling with the title question "Cheapest AR vs. mid-range AK"

I started this whole quest by looking at a $300 WASR, but when I happened to have an opportunity to fire one last week, I was struck by what a rattly, trigger-slappy rough-cut POS it was. The overall AK ergos were fine, and the accuracy was surprisingly adequate, but the build was just appalling. It's certainly not like my current modest budget collection are heirloom-quality examples of fit-n-finish (Taurus 1911, 870 Wingmaster, Marlin Model 60, Norinco SKS), but that WASR felt like a real POS in comparison to what I already own.

I guess what I'm looking for is the AR/AK choice that gives as much bang-for-the-buck as my current low-price, carefully selected guns -- good performance/price ratio, i.e. "value".

It seems that I'll have to pay at least $500 for an AK that would be appreciably better than a WASR/SAR (Vector or used Arsenal, Yugo?), so at $500, I thought, "why not just stretch to $600 and get an Olympic Arms Plinker Plus?" or, after researching, build a cheap AR for around $550-$600.

After reading such threads ad nauseaum on this and all the other gun fourms, I certainly DO NOT want to ignite any kind of "AK vs AR" thing, but is my reasoning on-track? My budget is fixed at $500-$600max, and at the upper end it lands me squarely in the vicinity of "Cheap AR vs. mid-range AK". I feel like a stupid noob asking YET ANOTHER AK vs. AR question, but I was trying to get a feel for "what EBR for $500-$600?" I will buy ammo for either gun (ammo price is similar here), I will practice a lot with either, I will maintain either.

I was trying to get replies to both halves of this question over at a more partisan forum, with separate areas for AK and AR, but I felt this was not a fair (or productive) question for forum wisely set up in such a divided manner.

Because of where I live, there is no way for me to rent or borrow an example of either platform, and I was lucky to fire that WASR recently.

Thanks for any light you could shed on this.

 

[rkh]

Every time a highroader buys an Oly plinker, baby Jesus sheds a tiny tear.


Seriously. Have you handled one? They're crudely manufactured and frequently have a lot of slop between the receiver halves. Don't half-ass your AR. Save up and get a solid Bushmaster, Colt, or Rock River.

 

[JWarren]

I have limited experiece with ARs, but have a bit with AKs.

I have a Vector AK underfolder that is a great rifle. I don't know what I can say about it. It fires well. The trigger is pretty crisp, and the sights are accurate enough to do what I needed it to do. The only time I needed to shoot it with cause was killling a cotton mouth mocasin (sp?) by my house. Cleanly took its head off in one shot while I still had open sights only.

I got the gut feeling that its sights were better that the ones I had on a SAR-1.


If you are in the $500-ish dollar range, there is one other option you may want to consider: Saiga. You can get a Saiga in 7.62X39, 308 win., and 223. They run in the $350-ish price range in stock condition. However, you can convert it to the pistol grip formation and everything else rather easily. There are tutorials in the Saiga Forum that will help, there are several gunsmiths that will do the conversion for a fee, and there are shops where you can buy one pre-converted (I bought mine pre-converted.)

I'd have to say that converted, you will not find a higher quality AK than a Saiga. My 308 scoped shoots 1 MOA all day long.

Take a look over in this forum if you want to explore that alternative:

http://forum.saiga-12.com/

All the best!

John

 

[Nightcrawler]

It depends on who builds 'em that day. In the case of the Romanian AKs, it depends on how hung-over the guy slapping your rifle together was.

Honestly, I'd get a mid-range AK before getting a cheap AR. The Stoner gun is less forgiving of manufacturing "shortcuts" than the AK is.

For $600 tops, I'd get a Vector. For a little more, you can get a converted Saiga. That's about the price for a used Arsenal, though bear in mind the milled guns are no longer in production.

Two moderators, Correia and PvtPyle, run a great little gun shop here in Utah. PM them for any info on ARs or AKs, current prices, etc. They have a bunch of converted Saigas in stock in their shop, and one slightly used Arsenal milled gun.

 

[bullockcm]

Saiga??

If you are somewhat mechanically inclined you might consider converting a Saiga. This would give you a choice of .223 or x39(.308 even if you wanted). You should be able to buy either rifle for around $300 (.308 Saiga is more $$$). Conversions can be done for as little as $75, of course depending on the furniture you want to use it could cost more. Current opinion is this is the most inexpensive way to get a quality AK type rifle. The biggest issue with this route verse an actual AK is the magazine issue. There are ways around it but no truely perfect solution. All the information you could want on going this way can be found at these 2 links:

http://www.cross-conn.com/Saiga_Conversion/index.htm
http://forum.saiga-12.com/

If I had your budget this would be the way I would go. However, after converting 2 Saigas myself I would be tempted to save up another $200 - $300 for a Rock River or Bushmaster. Nothing wrong with the Saigas and the accuracy is better than what most people think an AK will do but for what I use them for I think the AR would be a better fit. Live & learn...

 

[JWarren]

bullockcm,

Thanks for your comments. I've been trying to decide how I wanted to go on the next AK I get as well. My Vector is a great one, but I prefer a full stock over a folder as a general "on my back on 4-wheeler" rifle. I had a SAR-1 for that but it was stolen in a bugulary. After using the converted Saiga 308 this deer season, I am very impressed with them.

I was thinking of converting a Saiga 7.62X39 to fill that roll perhaps.

.223 is where I run into issues. I do want to eventually get a 223. simply because I'd like to have one rifle in the military's caliber-- even though .223 is has very limited practicality in my area. My option was to get an AR or a Saiga 223.

There is something to be said for having all of your rifles operate in the same manner (safty in the same location, etc.) but I am up in the air as to whether the Saiga 223 is the way to go. I suspect that magazine availability would be an issue in the Saiga 223, just like any other 223 caliber AK.

I'm thinking that I'll probably stick to Saiga in 308 and 7.62X39, and then go AR in 223 if I can do it on the cheap. Of course, I will get a Saiga 12 gauge before I even look at filling my smaller 223 need.



All the best!


John

 

[Gary G23]

A high end AK will be a LOT more reliable than a low end AR.
I prefer Arsenal Inc.

 

[CypherNinja]

Stag FTW.

And don't buy an AK, just build one (like me).

 

[CZ223]

A couple of things

In random order:

Some guys don't like Oly Arms guns but I have 2 and I love both of them. The PCR-16 for around $600 is a great deal.

Don't buy the plinker, this is the gun that most have had problems with.

I do not own a Saiga but from what I lnow this might be a good choice. I will be getting one in the future just because I am curious.

I think you can build an AR for right around $600. Check out model1sales.com and the various dealers over at ar15.com.

 

[rbernie]

I've built a half dozen ARs and I have a half dozen AKs or Saigas. Between the two, I'd gladly spend $600 on a good AK over trying to run a cheap AR build. In my opinion, the reliability of an AR can be quite good, but only when the parts are made properly/in spec and verified. The AK, on the other hand, has far fewer small parts that are as critical of composition and build quality. The only way that I'm comfortable with my ARs as anything other than range toys is if they're built from top-tier parts (not barrels and such; just the small parts and BCG that keep the big pieces runnin'). That pretty much rules out a $600 build; you'd be closer to $800 unless you bought used parts and were very selective.

I like the Saigas quite a bit and the Tromix conversions are reputed to be very nice; they're just slightly over $600 and may be do-able in your budget if you stretch a bit. Having said that, I prefer a good AK over a Saiga conversion in terms of handling; Saiga's are nose-heavy beasties compared to a more traditional AK. It's funny you mention the sloppy WASR experience; my favorite AK right now is a late-production WASR-10 that came in post-ban config with a G2 trigger group and excellent build quality. I *did* hand pick it, but the point is that even a lowly WASR can be a decent rifle if you shop around and find one of the good ones.

Armory Inc. makes nice AKs, as does Vector. Surprisingly, perhaps, the CAI Yugos have displayed pretty nice build quality; of the ten or twelve that I looked at on Saturday at Military Gun Supply, only one had a build flaw that would keep me from wantin' it (canted rear sight block). The fixed stock versions are selling locally for $459, and the underfolders for $479. That leaves a bit left over out of your budget for extra magazines. You'll want to save some money for mags; no sense in having an EBR if you don't have the mags to feed it.

I'm thinking that the Yugo may be just the ticket for ya...

 

[nico]

If you buy a stripped Essential Arms lower and combine it with the Del-Ton rifle kit (they use CMT/DPMS parts) of your choice, you can put together good AR for as little as $542 + shipping (about $15 each for the kit and lower) and ffl fee. That's about the cheapest way you can get a non-Oly AR, and based on what I've read, would give you a much better end product.

That being said, I'd avoid doing too much research. I started out with a plan to get an EA lower and del-ton kit. But, after doing some research I'm very tempted to get a RRA or CMMG upper and build the lower myself.

 

[gp911]

I recently bought a CAI Yugo underfolder and absolutely love the thing. Fit and finish is okay but not AR-spec, but it shoots well and I like the underfolder. Just shoulder them all before picking one, as the underfolder can be a bad fit for some people. Definitely better specs than a WASR, but not as nice as my Bushmaster AR was...

I'm not much of a gun cleaner, so the AK is a better fit for me. Plus I like simple mechanical things and the AK is about as simple as it gets...


gp911

 

[browningguy]

Not including shipping or tax, I built another AR just a few months ago. RRA and DPMS complete lowers with A2 or collapsible stock were $219 for either one at the Houston gun shows, DPMS 16" stainless bull barrel flat top upper $385 from Midwayusa.com. $604 and it's a really nice reliable shooter. Of ourse I didn't include iron sights on mine, just optics.

 

[thrasher64]

Another Olympic lover here, My K3B-FAR has been pretty much perfect for me. Very tight fit/finish and have never had a gun related jam/fte/ftf.

Plus If any thing ever did go wrong with her I can drive on down to the shop and have them take a look

 

[phoglund]

I have a fairly inexpensive AR I built myself ($850) and a converted Saiga 7.62X39 I bought already converted ($589). If I were to have a choice to grab one for "serious use" I'd grab the converted Saiga. Within the range I'd be shooting it would hit harder than the AR, be less likely to have a function problem with questionable ammo/conditions, and just feels better. Before I had both these guns I'd have not believed this but for me it is true. fbmg.com mentioned before are good people, I've bought other products from them but I bought my converted Saiga from atlanticfirearms.com. If you mention you are a forum member you will get a discount. I've since upgraded mine with a folder from ACE.

Pictures: http://wardragon.com/cruffler/saiga__762_x_39_thmbs.htm

 

[The_Shootist]

Romanian AK's?

Dunno - I paid $ 279 for my standard cap WASR10 and while the wood's not pretty and the finish is beginning to make it look like a "battlefield pick-up" its just fine.

No trigger slap, no mag wobble, accurate as I mean to be and feeds/shoots anything first time/all the time.

I AM thinking about stepping up to an Arsenal/Vector just 'cause I'm getting tired of some of the comments at the range ("Gee - I didn't think you could bring those things back from Iraq..." ).

Seriously. might be nice to own an AK that looks as well as it shoots - kind of a snobby attitude, but what the hell. Other than looks however, the WASR10 I have is just fine. I kinda think of it like a plain girl that can dance well - VERY well