Why do people think a pump / lever / revolver is better than an Autoloader?
- Thread starter elChupacabra!
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I think YOU are out of control.
I said semi-autos are EASIER to shoot, which is completely true. There is no pump action to keep stroking. The non-firing hand does nothing but grip and help aim the weapon, which is exactly what your off-hand should be doing.
And numerous posters in this thread have also been advocating the use of single and double barrel shotguns, and you're more than a tad daft if you think they have equal capacity to a semi-auto.
I was speaking in GENERAL, while you were trying to be ultra-literal in a very amateurish and failed attempt to make me look bad.
DougDubya
Member
No one ever said that single shot or double-barrel shotguns are the equal of even a pump.
Just that they could still be used in home defense with little difficulty.
Just that they could still be used in home defense with little difficulty.
Nolo
Member
We need more smileys! Our thread is heating up from lack of smiley lubricant!
Send a message to HQ!!!
Send a message to HQ!!!
Since the OP was clearly referencing weapons intended for personal and home defense, I don't know what a quite expensive specialized sniper rifle with very limited uses has to do with this conversation.
Remington, Mossberg and several other companies make excellent semi-autos that don't cost that much more than a pump---so that "pumps are cheaper" garbage is very possibly the sorriest excuse I've seen yet.
DougDubya
Member
No. Ayoob just mentioned that the reason WHY the one-armed Mireles chose the P220 and the Benelli, because they were easier for him. Mireles had trouble working the pump when Platt's rifle round left his arm incapacitated.
Ayoob likes using real world examples of why one or the other has been chosen by certain people.
R.W.Dale
Member
elChupacabra!
This may come as a real shocker to you but believe it or not SOME people just like to buy different kinds of firearms for differing reasons, preference, fit, price, style. Sometimes people have sheer enjoyment in mind when buying a rifle and not an irrational fear of getting in a small skirmish in their back yard sometime in the next 4.5hours. I don't know about ya'll but I'm getting kind of sick of everyones firearms purchased being scrutinized through the prism of "personal defense"
I know it sucks, but let's get real for a moment! if you're in a situation that cannot be handled by two rounds of 30-30win or 3 rounds from a revolver then you've already lost.
If we all limited ourselves to what worked.....
all rifles would be AK's
all pistols would be Glocks
all cars would be Toyota Camarys
and all boobies would be A cups
That my friend is a world I don't want to be a part of
Myself I rather like my 7615p I like to think of it as an AR-15 with a manual transmission, It's fun you should try having a little sometime
This may come as a real shocker to you but believe it or not SOME people just like to buy different kinds of firearms for differing reasons, preference, fit, price, style. Sometimes people have sheer enjoyment in mind when buying a rifle and not an irrational fear of getting in a small skirmish in their back yard sometime in the next 4.5hours. I don't know about ya'll but I'm getting kind of sick of everyones firearms purchased being scrutinized through the prism of "personal defense"
I know it sucks, but let's get real for a moment! if you're in a situation that cannot be handled by two rounds of 30-30win or 3 rounds from a revolver then you've already lost.
If we all limited ourselves to what worked.....
all rifles would be AK's
all pistols would be Glocks
all cars would be Toyota Camarys
and all boobies would be A cups
That my friend is a world I don't want to be a part of
Myself I rather like my 7615p I like to think of it as an AR-15 with a manual transmission, It's fun you should try having a little sometime
Oh, if your just talkin' in general, well then it's ok. I honestly think that I can dump a mag outta a Win. '97 as fast as anyone can outta an auto. But I'm just speakin' in general.
And I promise you that I know an ol' lady that can get through a box or two of 12 ga. faster than anyone can with any auto. But thats just practice, practice, practice.
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Nolo
Member
It's an example of people going beyond others' price ranges.
An extreme example.
Nolo
Member
A Win '97 doesn't have a disconnector. It's effectively an automatic pump shotgun. The foregrip is your trigger on the '97.
A CO2 BB pistol can be used for home defense with little difficulty. According to the semi-auto detractors, it's all about shot placement anyway.
Heck, let's just all buy a BB pistol, practice a whole lot (gee, the pistols and ammo are both real cheap, which appears to be a big thing with the semi-auto detractors)---and if we're the victim of a multi-perp home invasion, we'll just shoot every perp one time in the eye and it'll be fight over! Gee, self-defense is EASY on the internet!
Common sense question---If four armed perpetrators forcibly entered your home, would you rather be armed with a single-shot or a 8-shot semi-auto?
R.W.Dale
Member
reality check time
It's not really going to matter to you, YOU'LL BE DEAD! no matter how cool your gun is
see my above post
Oohrah
Member
All your observations are right on. I own and shoot all the styles of firearms
you questioned. All will work well with extensive training. Revolvers unless
your target is way too close, takes much practice and skill to achieve con
sistant hits double action. Remington pump rifle is a limited magazine cap-
city and much practice on their reloads. If .223 caliber, the M 15s are
a better deal for the ease of use, reloading, and clearing of jams. Handgun
of serious choice is Glock for the same reasons. Revolvers clearing when
they do not go bang is the pull of a trigger for the next round. All other
malfunctions do not clear as rapidly as a trained semi auto shooter (most
LEOs now use semis along with military) Lever action, and revolvers with a
few exceptions will be slower to reload and a bear to clear should they jam
There are always exceptions, but generally what you say is
correct in my experience that goes back to the 50s where the only woods
rifle was a lever, handguns worthwhile were revolvers, lots of choices for
shotguns as long as they were 12 or 16 guage
you questioned. All will work well with extensive training. Revolvers unless
your target is way too close, takes much practice and skill to achieve con
sistant hits double action. Remington pump rifle is a limited magazine cap-
city and much practice on their reloads. If .223 caliber, the M 15s are
a better deal for the ease of use, reloading, and clearing of jams. Handgun
of serious choice is Glock for the same reasons. Revolvers clearing when
they do not go bang is the pull of a trigger for the next round. All other
malfunctions do not clear as rapidly as a trained semi auto shooter (most
LEOs now use semis along with military) Lever action, and revolvers with a
few exceptions will be slower to reload and a bear to clear should they jam
There are always exceptions, but generally what you say is correct in my experience that goes back to the 50s where the only woods
rifle was a lever, handguns worthwhile were revolvers, lots of choices for
shotguns as long as they were 12 or 16 guage
Nolo, another thing that I chuckle at; A lot has been said here about the FBI shootout (I don't know much about that) that led to the FBI adopting the 10mm. and then down sizin' to the .40S&W.
What I find interesting is that those two rounds very neatly bracket those old (and apparently no good anymore) rounds, the 38-40 and the .44-40 that Great Grampa liked so much. Funny thing is, I'm sure someone that "trained" people in the agencies where Great Grampa worked, tried to tell him that they weren't any good back then either. I hope I'm up to my smiley quota now.
What I find interesting is that those two rounds very neatly bracket those old (and apparently no good anymore) rounds, the 38-40 and the .44-40 that Great Grampa liked so much. Funny thing is, I'm sure someone that "trained" people in the agencies where Great Grampa worked, tried to tell him that they weren't any good back then either.
I hope I'm up to my smiley quota now.Nolo
Member
I might add, that's the way Nolo likes them too. Would make my job a lot easier.
We reinvent the wheel all the time, look at 6.8 SPC... or should I call it by its real name--.280 BRITISH!!!!!
Great Grandpa gets things right a lot. But his grandson can often make them lighter, hit harder and feed more reliably. But sometimes they don't fit in Gramps old revolver anymore...
jakk280rem
Member
on a scale of 1 to 10, 1 being a mall ninja/nube type, 10 being a Steve Novak/John Taffin/Doug Koenig type, I rate about 4.8. i'll put my $.02 in.
#1. perhaps pumps have been around longer, perhaps ther is a ring of truth to the fouling problem/ maitanence issue to gas op shotguns. there also might be something psycological about the percieved reliability to a pump. or some people like the sound they make when you rack the slide.
#2. it all depends on the guns. a ar in 223 has less recoil compared to a marlin in 30-30, so the ar would be faster. however, a garand or m1 vs. a light kicking winchester, say a 25-20 would be a neck and neck race.
#3. Anyone who has had a spent cartridge slip under the ejector knows that a revolver can jam. it could be argued that a revolver jam is more time consuming to rectify than an auto jam. however, if i were going to store a pistol for long periods of time, say decades, i would be much more confident about a fully loaded revolver 100% functional than a fully loaded auto.
anyways, fwiw.
#1. perhaps pumps have been around longer, perhaps ther is a ring of truth to the fouling problem/ maitanence issue to gas op shotguns. there also might be something psycological about the percieved reliability to a pump. or some people like the sound they make when you rack the slide.
#2. it all depends on the guns. a ar in 223 has less recoil compared to a marlin in 30-30, so the ar would be faster. however, a garand or m1 vs. a light kicking winchester, say a 25-20 would be a neck and neck race.
#3. Anyone who has had a spent cartridge slip under the ejector knows that a revolver can jam. it could be argued that a revolver jam is more time consuming to rectify than an auto jam. however, if i were going to store a pistol for long periods of time, say decades, i would be much more confident about a fully loaded revolver 100% functional than a fully loaded auto.
anyways, fwiw.
MinnMooney
Member
I really don't think that anyone think that everything else is any better than an auto-loader. All types of actions have their place otherwise none would get sold and they'd be discontinued.
DougDubya
Member
AA-12 with 20 round drum and the fun switch. (I'm a jerk. I admit it.)
Seriously, you've seen me gushing over Benelli's. Give me the option of picking up any of the Super 90 family, and I'll take a lovely 8-shot auto, though wouldn't feel crippled by an 8-9 shot pump.
That's the thing. "Not feel crippled" by the pump.
No offense, but you're the one who needs to "get real". Your statement is demonstrably false, and I'd bet even several of the people arguing against me in this thread would agree with me on that particular point.
I know a guy personally who was involved in a shootout during an attempted carjacking, so I've gotten the story straight from the intended victim's mouth. This isn't something I pulled off the internet.
He's alive today because he had a semi-auto handgun with a high capacity mag. To make a long story short, after a failed attempt to hijack his car, the perps caught up with him on the highway and a high-speed shootout ensued.
He had to use every round in his high cap mag, before the perps finally decided to cease the attack and take off. If he had been carrying a "wonder wheelie" with only five or six rounds, he'd be dead today.
Now I realize there are a lot of internet "Revolver Rambos" who can take out a hummingbird in flight at a hundred yards with their "wonder wheelie" snubs, so they wouldn't have needed all those rounds. If you don't believe it, just ask them!
But for those of us normal human beings who aren't "wonder wheelie wizards", a semi-auto with a high-cap mag is good insurance in this type of situation.
And the fact that my acquaintance survived the situation even though he had to fire considerably more than three rounds, clearly falsifies your above quoted statement.
Nolo
Member
See guys? Doug just said something that made absolute, undeniable, perfect sense. So stop letting the argument polarize you so much.
It makes us all look like *******s (I should know, I've been mistaken for one more than once here).
I think there's more argument here than there actually are differences of opinion.
Well that's that then. The "professional" in the discussion has straightened us all out with someone else's anecdotal evidence.
sorry posted that before Nolo called cease fire
The "professionals" friend scared of some hoodlums with the sound of gunfire. Hey, Defensory, maybe a recording of a machine gun would work just as well.
sorry posted that before Nolo called cease fire
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Nolo
Member
Aww, geez, guys, you're gonna get us locked by morning.
We all agree semis, pumps, levers, and everything else have their places, don't we?
Okay, Wheeler. Accepted.
We all agree semis, pumps, levers, and everything else have their places, don't we?
Okay, Wheeler. Accepted.
DougDubya
Member
Actually, what is the standard buying price of a Saiga 12?
Being able to load 5 shotshells into a mag well makes the Benelli M4 vs. Remington 870 argument kind of moot, as each reloads only one at a time.
Being able to load 5 shotshells into a mag well makes the Benelli M4 vs. Remington 870 argument kind of moot, as each reloads only one at a time.
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