Why do people think a pump / lever / revolver is better than an Autoloader?
- Thread starter elChupacabra!
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Nolo
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The Browning '95 levers are possibly the coolest classic carbines ever made. I'm talking about the saddle-rings, of course.
Not that I won't be one of those holdouts, I love my leverguns as much as the next guy. Great action, great aesthetic form. And one of the few guns that truly makes you feel like a cowboy.
Compared to pumps, maybe not. But I'm comparing them to semis. ARs and SKSs and AK variants will rapidly replace the leverguns in the next 20-40 years, besides the holdouts for that classic feel.
Not that I won't be one of those holdouts, I love my leverguns as much as the next guy. Great action, great aesthetic form. And one of the few guns that truly makes you feel like a cowboy.
Doug resorts to his standard ad hominem attacks. No surprise there.
And Doug doesn't speak for Clint Smith, he's automatically ASSuming Clint would agree with him on all points. IF Clint Smith advises your average homeowner that a single-shot is just as good as a semi-auto against multiple perpetrators---then his advice would be piss-poor indeed. But I'm not saying that Clint says or thinks that. Doug clearly appears to be making unfounded ASSumptions.
There are thousands of active SWAT officers and other LEO's nationwide who would disagree with the buffoonish notion that "All shotguns are the same in a defensive situation."
Hopefully Doug will provide us with a list of all the SWAT teams, as well as national-state-county-local law enforcement agencies in this country, that issue single-shots and double barrels as their primary shotgun. It would be a very short list indeed, perhaps completely non-existent.
One last bit of common sense here---You do NOT judge a weapon intended for something as serious as armed self-defense, by what a MASTER LEVEL shooter like Clint Smith or WORLD CHAMPION shooter like Jerry Miculek can do with it. They're professional shooters who have shot tens of thousands of rounds and practiced for thousands of hours over a course of several decades.
Nolo
Member
You obviously missed the entire point of what Mr. Smith was saying. What he was doing was encouraging people to get any sort of home protection, and to make due with what they have.
He was also fighting against the idea that it's all about the equipment (i.e., mall ninjery) and that you can't be effective without an expensive tacticool shotgun.
I think he is also making the point that hitting the target quickly and reliably matters more than the tacticoolness of the firearm.
Of course, he makes his money teaching people to hit the target. But I don't think that, in this case, that detracts from his credibility.
Of course, he makes his money teaching people to hit the target. But I don't think that, in this case, that detracts from his credibility.
Johnnycome
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Ive heard people suggest this if there is an assault weapons ban you use heavy calibre lever actions and pump action rifles instead.
DougDubya
Member
Defensory, you're all about the hardware solution to a software problem.
If you can have a modicum of effectiveness with a single shot or a double-barrel, then obviously, no pump shotgun is going to cripple you in home defense, especially with an extended magazine tube.
If you can have a modicum of effectiveness with a single shot or a double-barrel, then obviously, no pump shotgun is going to cripple you in home defense, especially with an extended magazine tube.
DougDubya
Member
"You obviously missed the entire point of what Mr. Smith was saying. What he was doing was encouraging people to get any sort of home protection, and to make due with what they have.
He was also fighting against the idea that it's all about the equipment (i.e., mall ninjery) and that you can't be effective without an expensive tacticool shotgun."
Which is what I am agreeing with.
A pump shotgun isn't the worst weapon that can be used, and a single or double shot weapon CAN be used with effectiveness.
Someone is going to be less dead with only one round of buckshot emptied center of mass into them? We should surrender and slash our throats because we don't have an Atchisson-based AA-12 with 20 round removable drum magazine to lay down 300 shells per minute for 2700 pellets per minute fire?
We need the rate of fire of an XM134 minigun?
He was also fighting against the idea that it's all about the equipment (i.e., mall ninjery) and that you can't be effective without an expensive tacticool shotgun."
Which is what I am agreeing with.
A pump shotgun isn't the worst weapon that can be used, and a single or double shot weapon CAN be used with effectiveness.
Someone is going to be less dead with only one round of buckshot emptied center of mass into them? We should surrender and slash our throats because we don't have an Atchisson-based AA-12 with 20 round removable drum magazine to lay down 300 shells per minute for 2700 pellets per minute fire?
We need the rate of fire of an XM134 minigun?
JohnBT
Member
"Side-by-sides still have a place."
Sure, but I have a 28 ga. O/U and I'm going out in style.
Anybody have one of the old South African military 8-shot full-stocked Browning A-5's? I saw one at a gun show once and it was a monster, a heavy monster. It must have been 15 years ago and the guy wanted $800 for it. Oh well, should have bought it. It would make a good battering ram, too.
John
Sure, but I have a 28 ga. O/U and I'm going out in style.
Anybody have one of the old South African military 8-shot full-stocked Browning A-5's? I saw one at a gun show once and it was a monster, a heavy monster. It must have been 15 years ago and the guy wanted $800 for it. Oh well, should have bought it. It would make a good battering ram, too.
John
Nolo
Member
Doug, you are COMPLETELY discounting the reality that more than one or two shots in gun is a good thing.
I got my shotgun for $120. It holds five rounds in the tube. You can do home defense with a single-shot, no one is saying you can't. Indeed, a skilled shooter with a single shot is far more deadly than a novice with an AA-12. However, we are suggesting you get both an adequate gun (which is still cheap) and training.
I got my shotgun for $120. It holds five rounds in the tube. You can do home defense with a single-shot, no one is saying you can't. Indeed, a skilled shooter with a single shot is far more deadly than a novice with an AA-12. However, we are suggesting you get both an adequate gun (which is still cheap) and training.
Nolo
Member
I dunno, it seemed rather apparent when he started calling us idiots.
He sure IMPLIED that he thought anyone finding a single shot wanting for personal defense is an unskilled moron. I'd like to see him call my friend Mr. Valentine that... (ex-US Navy SEAL, quite the character)
Johnnycome
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Even if he calls you an idiot outright has nothing to do with the fact he never implys more rounds in the gun would be a disadvantage.however I think we all agree that spray and pray is a bad thing.and before anyone jumps me I'm not saying everyone that uses an auto follows this mantra.
I challange you to tell your friend he couldn't defend himself with a single shot.
I challange you to tell your friend he couldn't defend himself with a single shot.
Nolo
Member
Of course he could! I'm not saying he couldn't. If I had a rifle I wouldn't touch him!
What I am saying is that there are significant benefits to semi-automatics, along with generally slightly lower accuracy that really only starts becoming important outside 600 yards.
What I am saying is that there are significant benefits to semi-automatics, along with generally slightly lower accuracy that really only starts becoming important outside 600 yards.
sure there are but are they really necessary for SD/HD.hey if sombody asks what rifle for HD sure I'm gonna probably gonna say an auto but a pistol caliber lever carbine is certainly a capable solution.
and a pump shotty is even less a disadvantage to an auto IMHO 0%.
IMHO their accuracy is closer than that,But I'm spoiled Whiteoak AR and NM M1A
Nolo
Member
I'm all for pumps, I just think we're gonna find the same thing that we did with revolvers 100-ish years ago. All the military/police shotguns are gonna get replaced by semis, but military-built semis, like the Saiga 12.
DougDubya
Member
And Nolo, you seem to be supporting Defensory who feels that a five shot pump is only good for ducks and perhaps suicide.
I'm agreeing with you - a shotgun with a five shot capacity is an awesome thing for protecting yourself.
You're not trying to take out an al Quaeda cell all by yourself. But somehow, you get me saying that I'm going after you for needing mall ninja equipment, which I'm not.
I'm stating, even a revolver or a pump shotgun is more than effective for saving your own life.
I also was using Colonel Cooper's words - he had naught but disdain for the M-16 and felt it was slightly worse than throwing rice at an opponent. Elsewhere, I've pointed out that the 5.56 is not that bad.
So where exactly did I step on your personal toes, or are you simply looking for some excitement in this thread? If so, then by all means, continue misreading and misrepresenting my position that a pump shotgun is an excellent defensive weapon as anything BUT what I'm saying.
DougDubya
Member
Oh, and my Clint Smith comment was in regards to THE PUMP SHOTGUN being inadequate.
I'm also fairly certain that Mr. Valentine can kill half the nation of Japan with a toothpick... but what does that have to do with anyone in the real world who has to defend themselves?
I'm also fairly certain that Mr. Valentine can kill half the nation of Japan with a toothpick... but what does that have to do with anyone in the real world who has to defend themselves?
You're wrong yet again. Doug drew first blood by referring to one of my statements as "idiocy". There was certainly no need for that, but you turn a blind eye to those who use blatant ad hominems against me.
And PLEASE stop boring me with the old myth that pumps are somehow more inherently accurate than semi-autos. That's blatant hogwash.
In fact, the reason thousands of SWAT teams and law enforcement agencies across the country have dumped pumps in favor of semi-autos, is because pumps are so susceptible to human error.
On a semi-auto, there's no pump to short-stroke. The semi-auto is easier to operate---aim and squeeze the trigger. With the pump, you have the additional tasks of trying to maintain your aiming point while your non-trigger hand pumps the action.
The overwhelming majority of pump owners don't have the experience of a Clint Smith, so when they pump the action, the alignment will often move off the target, causing then to lose time trying to realign their aim. Not good in a critical situation.
A semi-auto is much easier to operate one-handed. Something to think about if you're wounded in one arm while facing multiple perpetrators in a home invasion situation, or if you have to open doors to retreat to a safe room in your home.
It's safe to say that not even one percent of shotgun owners in the USA have "years of bowling pin shooting" experience, so your statement is irrelevant.
Houston Tom
Member
it was a revolver and a lever action rifle that brought down the Neb Pepper gang. (old timers will knwo of what I speak)
DougDubya
Member
Actually, you're talking about high speed, low drag, offensive teams, Defensory.
I'm talking about average folk and what they generally own. There's far more pump platforms out there which, loaded with buck are only slightly less effective than your Benelli Super 90 descendant.
Oh, and back in the 90's, the Marines tried out the Mossberg semi-auto. Mossberg called it their Jungle gun, but the Marines found it finicky, and went back to the 590 until they could find something that didn't choke under combat conditions, which happened to be the Benelli M-4gobbeldygook indicator number.
Nowhere have I said that the semi-auto is inferior.
Plus, Massad Ayoob points out that Agent Mireles, the man who lost use of his arm killing Platt and Matix, is a big proponent of semi-auto shotguns simply because of his one-handed position.
Or, am I just repeating another fairy tale, and not a documented fact.
And where did I ever even talk about accuracy in shotguns? Maybe the mushy ass trigger of the AR-15 platform, as decried by plenty of people - George Hill for one, Jeff Cooper for another... but basically, Joe Average should NOT go house clearing.
Pistol for movement, shotgun/rifle for when you're turreted in your safe room, at least that seems to be the advice of, yes again, Mas Ayoob.
I'm talking about average folk and what they generally own. There's far more pump platforms out there which, loaded with buck are only slightly less effective than your Benelli Super 90 descendant.
Oh, and back in the 90's, the Marines tried out the Mossberg semi-auto. Mossberg called it their Jungle gun, but the Marines found it finicky, and went back to the 590 until they could find something that didn't choke under combat conditions, which happened to be the Benelli M-4gobbeldygook indicator number.
Nowhere have I said that the semi-auto is inferior.
Plus, Massad Ayoob points out that Agent Mireles, the man who lost use of his arm killing Platt and Matix, is a big proponent of semi-auto shotguns simply because of his one-handed position.
Or, am I just repeating another fairy tale, and not a documented fact.
And where did I ever even talk about accuracy in shotguns? Maybe the mushy ass trigger of the AR-15 platform, as decried by plenty of people - George Hill for one, Jeff Cooper for another... but basically, Joe Average should NOT go house clearing.
Pistol for movement, shotgun/rifle for when you're turreted in your safe room, at least that seems to be the advice of, yes again, Mas Ayoob.
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