Why do people think a pump / lever / revolver is better than an Autoloader?

[Defensory]

Posted by Armed Bear:
And it seems a lot of people can't hit a barn door with a shotgun. They'd be better off practicing with an 870 than buying a $1500 Benelli they can't shoot. As others have said, you can't miss fast enough.

You continue to cling to the false assumption that pump shotguns are somehow inherently more accurate than a semi-auto.

Actually, for the vast majority of homeowners who aren't an internationally renown shotgun expert like you, the semi-auto will be the easier and more accurate to shoot.

NOT because the semi-auto is INHERENTLY more accurate, but because as I explained in my previous post, you don't have to keep pumping the semi with your other hand to reload it. Which often causes the less experienced shooters to have to realign their shot after pumping.

The semi-auto is also superior for physically small, frail and elderly shooters. Stroking that pump action can be a difficult task for those types of shooters.

And who ever said you need a 1500.00 Benelli? Not me, so don't put words in my mouth. I can do just fine with a Mossberg semi-auto that doesn't cost half that much.

 

[elChupacabra!]

Man guys... I don't want to get in the middle of this... but I've gotta say that I tend to agree with Defensory's opinion that semi-autos, if fed proper ammunition, are a little more idiot-proof in those 3-8 seconds that you might be shooting it for real, in a home defense setting, which was the whole point of the original thread...

Also, FWIW, I've heard alot of people rail against the AR trigger, but I built my lower with a Rock River trigger, which was only 80 bucks but offers a pretty clean break (for what I paid for it - it's no JP or Knight's, but for a fighting rifle, quite an improvement over the stock trigger).

Anyways, like I said I don't want to get in the middle of this, just throwing my $.02 in there...

******RUNS FOR COVER*******

 

[DougDubya]

elChup, the thing is, semi-autos can be more finicky with defense ammunition.

On the AR, some people (practically the whole USMC) get by with the mushy 2 stage trigger.

Defensory, Armedbear is saying that even a $750 Mossberg leaves less leftover money for practice ammo and practice targets than a $300 870. $450 worth of ammunition and targets is a LOT of training.

In defense of the semi-auto, again, in addition to the endorsement by Agent Mireles who has to use longarms with one fully capable arm (I'm not certain the amount of utility he has with the other) is that when fed the ammunition that properly cycles the semi, it recoils less.

My statement is NOT that the Remington 11-87 is somehow not relevant to personal defense. It's that the 870 is NOT the equivalent of a useless jammatic that people can't use to defend themselves.

And frankly, if given a choice to use a proven, reliable 11-87 and/or the Benelli M-4, versus an 870 just handed to me, yeah, gimme the cool high-speed, low drag guns. But do you honestly feel that someone with a Mossberg 590 or Remington 870 is going to automatically die because he has a manually cycled shotgun?

 

[mavracer]

You're wrong yet again. Doug drew first blood by referring to one of my statements as "idiocy". There was certainly no need for that, but you turn a blind eye to those who use blatant ad hominems against me.

he attacked your arguement not your person.

And PLEASE stop boring me with the old myth that pumps are somehow more inherently accurate than semi-autos.

never ever said anything remotely to imply that since I agree its untrue.there is no difference in inherent accuracy.

In fact, the reason thousands of SWAT teams and law enforcement agencies across the country have dumped pumps in favor of semi-autos, is because pumps are so susceptible to human error.

while that is all true. the arguement could be made that human error would be elimanated with more training, but its cheaper to just buy autos.and before you flame me I'm saying don't sacrafice training for equipment.

 

[elChupacabra!]

Doug,

You're right - semis can be more finicky with various types of ammunition, some of which are "defensive," but I've always qualified my statements that this is only in a home defense type scenario with ammunition that has been pre-selected as reliable.

Like I've said several times, if this is the last shotgun I ever have, please give me a pump.

But in my home, I think a good semi would be more effective against an intruder or two, even if that difference is only marginal. This is in no way intended to diminish the effectiveness of a pump, or any firearm, for that matter.

Also, regarding ARs, again, I know most of the USMC carries a selective fire trigger, set up for semi / 3-round burst, but I don't, and this discussion was based on BEST, not "what most Marines carry." So still, I've gotta say that a lever gun doesn't NECESSARILY have a better trigger than an AR. Just because some lever gun triggers are better than some AR triggers, doesn't mean they are all thay way - and it's not that hard to switch out the trigger on an AR.

Ok. Again, backing away slowly......

 

[mavracer]

but I've gotta say that I tend to agree with Defensory's opinion that semi-autos, if fed proper ammunition, are a little more idiot-proof in those 3-8 seconds that you might be shooting it for real

and me and Doug seam to agree it would be better to fix the idiot through training than just use an auto its idiot proof.

 

[elChupacabra!]

Mavracer,

You're right, training always beats equipment - but with equal training, for me, the auto beats the pump for simplicity.

Simplicity of operation tends to be a good thing in those adrenaline-soaked, high-intensity moments.

 

[mavracer]

and this discussion was based on BEST

in some cases BEST would be the weapon a person knows best.

 

[elChupacabra!]

Absolutely - I've agreed to that in a previous post. If you only know one weapon system, go with that for sure.

But if you're still deciding / picking / just curious what others think, well-informed, thoughtful opinions are very much appreciated.

 

[mavracer]

but with equal training, for me, the auto beats the pump for simplicity.

for you great
for me I have trained, hunted, shot a lot of pins and 3 gun with a pump.

 

[mavracer]

But if you're still deciding / picking / just curious what others think, well-informed, thoughtful opinions are very much appreciated.

a lot of shooters may not have the money, I think we would all agree on say a $800 budget a $300 pump and $500 ammo/training makes more sense than a $750 auto and $50 of ammo.but it's still not my decision to make to each their own.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by DougDubya:
And Nolo, you seem to be supporting Defensory who feels that a five shot pump is only good for ducks and perhaps suicide.

I'm agreeing with you - a shotgun with a five shot capacity is an awesome thing for protecting yourself.

You're not trying to take out an al Quaeda cell all by yourself. But somehow, you get me saying that I'm going after you for needing mall ninja equipment, which I'm not.

I'm stating, even a revolver or a pump shotgun is more than effective for saving your own life.

I also was using Colonel Cooper's words - he had naught but disdain for the M-16 and felt it was slightly worse than throwing rice at an opponent. Elsewhere, I've pointed out that the 5.56 is not that bad.

So where exactly did I step on your personal toes, or are you simply looking for some excitement in this thread? If so, then by all means, continue misreading and misrepresenting my position that a pump shotgun is an excellent defensive weapon as anything BUT what I'm saying.

Doug the pot calling the kettle black! He complains about Nolo misreading and misrepresenting HIS position, when Doug does the very same thing to me and numerous others.

I would like Doug to point out PRECISELY where I stated that use of a five shot pump is good only for "ducks and perhaps suicide."

And not referring to Doug here---but I find it interesting that many of the same people who advocate revolvers over semi-auto pistols are often the same ones who advocate pumps over semi-auto shotguns. One of their favorite mantras is "Revolvers are simpler to use".

Well, it just so happens that semi-auto shotguns are simpler to use than pumps. Just aim and shoot---no need to have to continue pumping the action every time you want to shoot.

Pump shotguns have a much greater capability for HUMAN error. Which is precisely why thousands of SWAT teams and police forces around the country have ditched their pumps for semi-autos over the last few decades.

The primary fighting shotgun of the U.S. Marine Corps is the military equivalent of the Benelli M4 Super 90. The U.S. Army, Navy, Air Force and Coast Guard have all placed large orders for the same weapon.

According to the logic and statements of some of the semi-auto detractors in this thread (not necessarily referring to Doug here), I guess we'll just have to assume that the U.S. Marine Corps is a bunch of "tacticool mall ninjas" who "live with their mommies" and "wouldn't know what to do in a real armed confrontation".

 

[scrat]

Ok i have looked at this thread long enough. So now i thought id better answer. Here is my .02 cents.

I go to the range with my revolvers and lever guns. Some even black powder revolvers. The guy next to me has 400+ bullets for his 9mm. His target gets totally torn up and he keeps shooting it. More or less it seems as though he is more focused on pointing it at the target than placing his shots. When he can he quickly does the double tap. hoping to even do a third. Trying to get away with it. Mean while my Black Powder revolver is finally loaded. I pull up to the firing line. Thinking back on the characteristics of this gun. Take aim and pull the trigger. I pause for a second looking at my results. Then take aim again, and again and again. My 6 shots are up. My groups are nice and tight. They are placed right where i wanted them. That one or two that were off target a little i knew about it. Before i pulled the trigger i knew i was off a tad i had control of what i did.

SEIZE FIRE.

We go up to change or repair targets. I may have gotten off 12 rounds between seize fires. I put up round stickers on my holes labeling them 1 or 2 for the first loads and 2nd. The guy next to me his holes are all over. You can even see where he shot the wood up on top.

RIFLE

I know that while using a bench rest pad or something i have one shot then will have to pull the lever and reset the rifle. Again im thinking about what loads im shooting how will it shoot and where should the bullet go. I take aim and fire. The guys with the semi autos. Seem to do the same as the guys on the hand gun side.

Now back to reality. There are some guys who will try and spend the time to shoot accuratley. change targets when needed. Stop drilling holes in a paper filled with holes and try to improve on what they are doing. However the majority at the ranges is shoot all you can. Look at the police departments. LAPD prime example. some one pulls a trigger and everyone is fireing not looking where the bullets are going just pointing in the direction of fire. So you train shooters with limited ammo on accuracy. Marine corps. ONE Shot ONE kill. you make a better shooter. Analyst have proven that most gun conflicts in the states are over within 4-5 rounds being fired. With that in mine its all about shot placement. For home defense i will take my 44magnum revolver any day. I have shot enough rounds to know where to aim and how to shoot. My shots will be accuratley placed with limited use. I dont need to empty a 30 round magazine to bring down an intruder in my house. Chances are all i will need is One shot. two if im not fully awake.

 

[DougDubya]

Really, Defensory? You completely missed my two posts talking about the joys and benefits of semi-auto shotguns in this very thread?

And where did I say "Revolvers are simpler to use?" even in the old "Why a revolver?" thread?

There are plenty of autos as easy to use as a revolver. I've mostly mentioned revolvers and pump shotguns because they speak to my soul.

And, again, it took a long time for the Marine Corps to find a semi-auto shotgun that was "Marine proof" as stated with the fiasco of the Mossberg Jungle Gun failure of the 90's.

Then again, I've always loved the coolness of the basic black Benelli Super 90 M1 back when it out-beautiful'd the Franchi SPAS-12.

I'm NOT detracting the Super 90 family.

 

[Wheeler44]

According to the logic and statements of some of the semi-auto detractors in this thread (not necessarily referring to Doug here), I guess we'll just have to assume that the U.S. Marine Corps is a bunch of "tacticool mall ninjas" who "live with their mommies" and "wouldn't know what to do in a real armed confrontation"

No they are a body of soldiers that fight with what they are issued. The body of people that decide what equipment they use is a

committee

. The process that I use to decide which weapon is better for which situation that I foresee is much more personal.

 

[DougDubya]

Defensory, apparently we are agreeing, except in Massad Ayoob being a truthful man who does good, extensive research.

The OP wanted to know why people still cling to the ancient revolver and the pump shotgun and the bolt-action or lever-action rifle.

You talk about people who actually go in AFTER bad guys as picking up on the good qualities of the semi-auto.

These guys are also the same folks who actually have better access to large lots of regulated ammunition, and who seek out more training on their own dime - guys who are by far NOT mall ninjas, which I never accused anyone here of being.

Joe Citizen is not going to have to go through his house in a room clearing exercise with a long gun. Mas and Clint both advocate a handgun in such instances until the family is secured, then the shotgun is used from a cover position.

 

[Defensory]

Posted by Wheeler44:
No they are a body of soldiers that fight with what they are issued. The body of people that decide what equipment they use is a

Quote: committee

The process that I use to decide which weapon is better for which situation that I foresee is much more personal.

The U.S. Marine Corps does its own weapons testing, and makes its own decisions internally as to which weapons they'll adopt. So the "committee" you speak of is comprised of highly experienced Marine Corps officers and NCO's, who approve a weapon only after extensive testing.

The Benelli semi-auto has seen significant use in Iraq, and I haven't heard any negative reports about it.

Semi-auto shotguns are easier to shoot, have greater capacity, superior rate of fire, and significantly less prone to human error---which makes them the best choice for a wider variety of self-defense situations.

 

[mavracer]

According to the logic and statements of some of the semi-auto detractors in this thread (not necessarily referring to Doug here), I guess we'll just have to assume that the U.S. Marine Corps is a bunch of "tacticool mall ninjas" who "live with their mommies" and "wouldn't know what to do in a real armed confrontation".

gees, it would seem that the fact that some feel warm and fuzzy using a pump/revolver for SD/HD puts you on the defensive.
I argue all the time with SO who also spent 9 years in Marines they are an offensive bunch "surrender is not in their creed"
I will agree that for offensive pourposes autos rule.heck gimme a mini gun.

but we are talkin' defense here.

 

[DougDubya]

Semi-auto shotguns have a higher capacity?

The Saiga-12, the USAS-12 and the AA-12 do. But not the Benelli Super 90 M4. Not in comparison to the 590's and 870's which had extended tube magazines.

Just saying, that's one fact that does not jibe with your argument.

One-handed use, better recoil absorption, and faster rate of fire, however, all rock in comparison to the 870 or 590, but the capacities are just not different.

 

[Nolo]

Defense take the same stuff that offense uses. The same explosives, the same weapons, the same everything. Because when defense and offense meet, they fight. And they use what is effective where they fight. (This is inconsiderate of differing tactics different individuals or armies may adopt)

 

[mavracer]

Semi-auto shotguns are easier to shoot, have greater capacity, superior rate of fire, and significantly less prone to human error---which makes them the best choice for a wider variety of self-defense situations.

really, I think your out of control.
pump guns are easy to shoot,have equal capacity and a good rate of fire,making them a fine choice for most SD situations and a better choice if funds would not allow the weapon purchace with enough left for training.

 

[mavracer]

Defense take the same stuff that offense uses. The same explosives, the same weapons, the same everything. Because when defense and offense meet, they fight. And they use what is effective where they fight.

dude, you have explosives for HD?
cool

 

[M1911]

Plus, Massad Ayoob points out that Agent Mireles, the man who lost use of his arm killing Platt and Matix, is a big proponent of semi-auto shotguns simply because of his one-handed position.

I took LFI-1 and 2 and I do not remember any such thing. He addressed the pros and cons of both but did not press one or the other. It was the same with revolvers versus semi-auto pistols. He discussed their pros and cons at considerable length. He never said that people should use X rather than Y.

 

[Nolo]

Semi-auto shotguns are easier to shoot, have greater capacity, superior rate of fire, and significantly less prone to human error---which makes them the best choice for a wider variety of self-defense situations.

And a Walther WA2000 is better for sniping than nearly any other rifle in its class, but people just don't have the money to shell out for it.
It seems that we have a situation where people are polarizing themselves. One group has moved to the side that says that experience is all that matters. Another has moved to the side that says that equipment is all that matters. None of you believe this, but you have moved to those positions because you are responding to the opposition.
I say, get the experience first, then get the best gun for the job.
The best gun in the world counts for nothing if you can't hit anything.
And the best shot in the world counts for nothing if his gun jams up or runs out of ammo.

 

[Nolo]

dude, you have explosives for HD?

I was talking strategically. The only explosives I have are for recreation.