Why do SWAT/Ninja/Tactical types all line up?

[VaughnT]

The stacking makes sense but I'm sure they'd be open to a better option. That episode of Conquest was fantastic to watch and really gives you a sense of how difficult it can be to live through that type of event. Cudos to hard-trained SWAT men.

One thing that comes to mind, however, is that folks seem to be forgetting that any room would more than likely be filled with flash-bangs long before the good guys come in. Just try to get off aimed fire after having your senses assaulted like that.

On the shields: we once took an old window (18"x12") from our truck and tested it on the range. It took AK, AR, 30-30, .270, .357, and .45 rounds without a single failure to stop. The big thing to remember is that the shields give on impact and that movement helps to absorb energy from the round and prevents penetration. In our non-scientific testing, only the AK penetrated and that was only about an eigth of an inch - literally just the nose of the bullet. The bullet was trapped in the laminate and no harm would have come to the crew. It was also nice to see that spalling wasn't an issue.

 

[spacemanspiff]

when playing MOHAA online, and theres a hallway with 2-5 of the enemy facing me, having them stacked in neat rows like that makes them easy targets. one 8 round clip from the garand will dispatch them all.

life is just like a video game, isnt it?

 

[Shaughn Leayme]

Given the time it takes for them to enter, you would have to be ready and waiting for them, otherwise it is more or less moot.

They plan it so that you (or the bg) doesn't have any fore warning and they probably know the inside of your house better than you do. They can access blueprints, floor plans, structural layouts anything they need and then they practice on a suitable mockup, so that when it is time they can just about do it on automatic.

The entry shield is designed to stop rifle rounds and even provide some protection against explosives. Many times the entry man is also wearing a class IV vest with inserts and it is rated to stop the 30/06 Black tip armour piercing loads.

The stacking allows them to split off with the man behind proceeding on as each member secures his appointed area, it is fast and efficient and the amount of time these people spend training leads to an almost machine like efficiency, that can be a pleasure to observe. (at least from the standpoint of an onlooker, not so much if it is your house they are entering)

They have the advantage, they set the scene and you are reacting to them..in other words you are behind the 8 ball playing catch up. Definitely not the place anyone wants to be.

 

[The Rock]

Tamara, you need to free your mind....

Think of Jack Welsh and 'Bring Good Things To Life'



Ah, short work.

TR

 

[Harold Mayo]

It's always easy to "second guess" the tactic and think of ways to defeat it but how prepared are the defenders? Are they going to be alert and ready for the entry team? Have they practiced? The entry team has and they're less likely to panic and do something stupid or not planned. They've got the fields of fire covered and have body armor, training, and (generally) full-auto weapons on their side, not to mention snipers looking through the windows, flash-bangs, etc.

When someone IS prepared for them is when you hear about casualties. For the numbers of high-risk warrants served by the SWAT/ninja/tactical teams across the nation, there are surprisingly few injuries.

Someone talked about tripping them up? It happens. There are actually a fair number of booby traps encountered in some areas of the country. One guy on a local team serving a warrant on a meth lab got a bunch of rusty nails in his leg when he stepped on a board and it rotated as it had been designed to do and stuck him. Not too awful bad, but "what if" the trap had been set with some explosives stolen from a construction site or something like that? Fortunately, most criminals either aren't smart enough to think of really clever things or are smart enough to think that they are outsmarting the popo's and don't bother much with security. After all, the best thing is to not get caught. You're in deep crap if you are running a meth lab AND injure a cop (or a few cops) while they're busting it.

 

[Chris]

stacking

Stacking is obviously the best way to make an entrance in a high risk takedown.

The training I took had us do it in 6 man teams. Operators 1-4 did all the ninja door kicking, while man 5 was the "clean-up man" who did any cuffing/body dragging. Man 6 was in command and coordinated everything.

The speed at which you can move when you practice is amazing. The DEA has a standing 30 second rule (last time I talked to my friend there anyways) from the time the enter to the time that drugs are disposed of (usually flushed). So they can move that fast.

To demonstrate how overwhelmed people are, we took turns being the BG in simulations. Even with trained operators acting as BG's, the entry team mowed over them. So much so, that usually the 2nd man in the stack would be able to neutralize the BG waiting to shoot. If it is the first guy shooting, there is slim to no chance the BG will get shots off.

It also depends on what technique is used to entry. I'm a big fan of the double buttonhook, but other techniques will work.

 

[tommytrauma]

Fly320s

From what I've seen on the Discovery Channel that's called stacking. It is used to go through doorways or other narrow areas, like halls, when entering a room. Mall Ninjas do it while waiting for the bathroom.

Fly, in this post 9/11 world, we are at war. The war is taking place in our home land. Our malls are potentially very real targets. We need to be careful when discussing sensitive information such as the 'code 10-100' bathroom break stacking techniques being used by mall security. Exposing sensitive information like this in a public forum could lead to a potty ambush that would leave a whole mall defenseless. These kind of bowel-clearing tactics are best left to professionials.

 

[tricia_s37]

Someone here said that they have access to blueprints, etc and even do mock scenarios with it in order for efficiency, etc. Does this only apply to stealth entry, or dynamic as well? Or only if the situation warrants enough time? I mean, with dynamic, you wouldn't have enough time for blueprints, right? You'd just have to take it as is.

 

[Shaughn Leayme]

You will find that in any entry, that there is a lot of preperation involved and that nothing is done at the last minute, that they have intelligence on who, what and where.

To get a warrant (there have been some notable exceptions to this) you have to have evidence and this is usually gathered over time by investigators and then when enough evidence is gathered the warrant stage is entered and then based upon the gathered intelligence, the method of entry will be determined by the circumstances involved, say if there is a chance of evidence being destroyed, a bomb being detonated, how dangerous the suspect is, etc.

You have accumulated all sorts of data over this time frame and you know the who, what and the where. You have the layout of the building and by the use of undercover officers or CI, you have a fair idea of any internal modifications and what (if any) plans that they bg may have in place to deal with an entry, usually they are more worried about another bg than they are the police, police don't kill you out of hand, a competitor probably will.

The actual entry is usually the last step in a lot of steps and wether it is a dynamic or a stealth there is always a plan, with contingencies for most any complication.

 

[cookhj]

in military urban breaching, they teach that if you have a building with only one entry point, instead of going through that only entry point, make your own by blowing a whole in a wall. the explosion will cause confusion, not only because of the blast, but also because any BG inside was expecting you to come through that one entry point.

like a lot of people have said, a lot of intel is collected well before any tactical teams are sent in, and they train so much so that every move becomes second nature. if you did something for hours a day and a few days a week, with proper training you would become exceptionally good at it.

 

[rebbryan]

if you have 20 bucks and wanna know more about SWAT then go and buy SWAT 3 GOTY Edition, it's got a tactics cd that explains a lot about swat

1. He doesn't know which side they're on.

i've heard of the team going in a door while other officers break out windows. imagine sitting in your house and you hear boom and then all your windows break out, chances are you won't know *** is going on.

 

[Cosmoline]

"i've heard of the team going in a door while other officers break out windows. imagine sitting in your house and you hear boom and then all your windows break out, chances are you won't know *** is going on."

Thus, the critical importance of good dogs and a big fence.

 

[Shaughn Leayme]

Silenced weapon takes out dogs and camera's, wire cutter takes care of fence, you can also take care of electrified fences by a somewhat simple means of creating a wired shunt around the section you want to cut or use a fold over ladder to bridge the fence, which is also good for those fences running high voltage.

Suppressed weapons can be effective to a 150 plus meters (depending on caliber and type) so they can take care of a dog(s) from a distance and the dog probably wouldn't even know that something was wrong, ergo, neither would you.

You must understand that these people are not stupid and what you can think of they have also and they are not going into the situation blind.

 

[Boats]

These tactics all rely on surprise. Without it the odds of success fall dramatically. Case in point-the ATF raid of Waco.

It would seem that the smart criminal mastermind could prepare effectively for an entry team and an escape. It would require a lot of money if one wanted to be elaborate about it, but some serious anti-personnel measures would prove quite effective against these tactics, even one as mundane as spreading caltrops or bear traps at all entry points at night. Moving with spikes or teeth imbedded in your feet is a tall order and those guys all wear crepe soled boots. A well disguised trap door to a tunnel that would emerge beyond the logical perimeter and not appear in any blueprints would also be a wise investment were one really serious about evading attack.

Probably the best way to avoid dynamic entry as a criminal is to never be in the same place every night or in any pattern. Such a tactic has been apparently working for a couple of high profile guys overseas we having been wanting to talk to. That Rudolph character sure but on quite the evasion show at home too.

These LEOs are smart, but in part they depend on the stupidity and arrogance of their opponents too.

 

[gearbox]

So...it's like a tactical Conga line?

 

[Cosmoline]

You must understand that these people are not stupid and what you can think of they have also and they are not going into the situation blind."

Sure, but I also suspect that in 99% of the cases, they are NOT going to charge in on someone who's prepared for them. They use surprise. If someone knows they are coming, and has a large rifle waiting for them, I doubt very much they'd risk an entry. Not without a tank. Or they'll simply have snipers shoot everyone they can see--a la Ruby Ridge.

 

[sw442642]

It's been hinted at but it's clear that:

1. In police situations, the majority of people on the wrong end of the stack aren't going to resist. They know the game

2. Those that do resist will not have access to truly effective weaponery. When folks are pounding at your door - how many semiauto Barretts open up through the door at the attackers? No one drops a grenade on you. You don't open the door to a minefield or barbed wire most of the time.

3. Those about to be attacked don't expect it. Or else the teams would be taken under fire while they are futzing around outside from several directions.There is no defense in depth.

Folks are talking about assaulting a military position vs. most likely a drug house where people are going to do much effectively.

If the BGs had lookouts, pre-emptive sniping at the team, etc. - it would be quite different. Of course, you could argue that all the preraid planning would pick that up. However, sometimes raids hit the wrong house, so one has to wonder.

The bottom line is that the tactics work against tactically primitive resistance.

 

[Mute]

Why do SWAT/Ninja/Tactical types all line up?

To do the SWAT hokey-pokey?


You put your MP5 in,
You put your MP5 out,
You put your MP5 in and you shoot it all about.....

 

[H Romberg]

"Enfilade" fire.
Fancy french term for shooting at people when they are stacked up and you can hit multiple targets with one bullet. It was used very successfully by the old sailing British Navy when they would "rake" enemy vessels from the stern, and their shot would go bowling along the enemy's gundecks upending guns and splattering crews before exiting at the bow of the ship. It was a really eficient way of killing off the Frogs' crews prior to boarding.

It was taught to me as something to avoid having done to you. The shield makes the situation different, as long as it's strong enough to really stop the threat. I know SAPI plates stop AK rounds over in Baghdad, but relying too heavily on your armor's ability to absorb KE is a dangerous thing.