Why does any ammo work in military sniper rifles?

[mugsie]

I have a question. First of all, maybe this belongs in the reloading section, maybe here in the rifle section. I'm sure the Mods, being infinately more savy than me in catagories, will place this where it belongs.

I am reading American Sniper by Chris Kyle. He speaks about the variety of equipment he carries and uses, a MK-12 in 5.56, a MK-11 in 7.62, a .300 Win Mag and occasionally but rarely a 50. Later on after training they were issued .338's which he used a lot. Ammo was from Black Hills, which raises the question.

I have a variety of rifles I shoot long range with (600 to 1000 yds). I spend hours and hours prepping brass, finding the perfect load, working on seating depth, everything to give me the endge and to find the sweet spot in the harmonics of the barrel.

So here comes Chris, or any military long range shooter for that matter. They pick up a box of ammo, slap it in and they're good to go. Barrel harmonics seem to be out the window, yet they hit their target every time. Cold bore shot, warm bore, fouled, not fouled, they're on target. Why?

Why do I need to go through gyrations in looking for the sweet spot when they don't? I'm not trying to hit minute of bad guy, but I am trying to hit as many in the "X" ring as possible. Is that the difference? I'm shooting for the smallest group at a distance and they are shooting to eliminate a target? I can't believe that's the answer. Somehow I think the search for the holy grail of shooting is just chasing shadows.

What say ye on the subject?

 

[Arkansas Paul]

They pick up a box of ammo, slap it in and they're good to go.

No they don't.

Military snipers' ammo is handloaded for the rifle they are firing. 99% of the soldiers are just issued ammunition, not snipers. Totally different animal.

 

[Ranger Roberts]

In Iraq and Afghanistan, the typical shot that a sniper takes is less than 200 yards. I wasn't a sniper so I can't speak about their ammo, but like Arkansas Paul said, I was always under the belief that their ammo was handloaded. Again, I can't say for sure though.

 

[rcmodel]

Military snipers' ammo is handloaded for the rifle they are firing

No it isn't!

Military snipers shoot whatever the prevailing ammo contract provides them.

We shot Lake City Match ammo in 1968-70.
Nobody had time to reload it, or the logistics to send tailored handloads for each rifle halfway around the world and get it to each rifle in the field.
It's no different now.

Black Hills gets about all the contracts now.
It is very good stuff, giving consistently good accuracy in any good rifle.

Rc

 

[Ranger Roberts]

We shot Lake City Match ammo in 1968-70.

Lake City is what we had until I got out in '06.

 

[RPRNY]

The military sniper is looking to put relatively large targets down (no, not that I could do it). You are looking for tight groups. Change your target size to 40"x24" and shoot whatever ammo you like, but the same ammo. It's not like they get a box a Winchester one day and a box of Hornady the next (although, with the defense cuts...)

 

[silicosys4]

"sniper ammo" from what I've read is just a specific loading of ammo that works the best across the board for the rifle, and is loaded to more exacting specs than standard ammo...better quality control.
You can get the same thing by buying expensive "match" ammo.
Odds are it won't produce the absolute best groups in your rifle that it possibly could, as opposed to worked up handloads.
But the military snipers would get the same result with better handloads....slightly smaller groups.
Chris Kyle does mention people missing a fair amount in his book, and talks about missing longer range shots.

 

[Arkansas Paul]

No it isn't!

I was going by what I saw here.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?224041-Reloading-Tools-the-Marines-use

This isn't the only place I've seen this.

Maybe it is just for the match competition teams and not the actual ammo used for combat.

 

[HighExpert]

I think more long range shots are missed because of miss-reading wind and trigger control than because of ammo. Most good rifles will shoot reasonably well with any quality ammo and a little better with customized stock. Just my experience.

 

[desidog]

It's not like they get a box a Winchester one day and a box of Hornady the next (although, with the defense cuts...)

I seem to recall a crew of Canadians mooching .50BMG off us, because our stuff was loaded hotter than theirs...

 

[taliv]

as a rule,
1. they shoot factory ammo, not handloads.
2. they are shooting much larger targets
3. they miss a lot.*

*often because they are shooting standing behind some wall or rock, and not off a bench or 6' of freshly cut grass, and after they have been running, and probably while they have a heavy pack on. but also because they are human and most of their training time is not shooting

 

[CSC_Saint]

When I was in Iraq, I got designated as the troop "sniper/marksman". Given that this was a cavalry troop and we don't use snipers much there wasn't a lot of support for it. I got handed an m24, m14(synthetic plaino stock), and an m82a1. No spiffy ammo, just stuff I had to pull from belts, m80 ball, and .50 ball. Really I only got used for small kills teams, surveillance, and intimidation. Insurgents don't like to play when you post up and make sure they see a Barrett providing overwatch. I had to purchase a scope mount for the m14 out of pocket. I think iIhad maybe 50 rounds of m118lr(175gr smk) for the m24. So its not like iI was very well equipped, or trained for that matter. It was a day at the range zeroing and shooting out to 700ish meters.

Afghanistan, I got an m14 ebr a couple months prior to leaving the states and a couple weeks training with army marksmanship unit and sniper instructors from benning. The once in country my platoon sergeant understood the value of squad designated marksman and made sure I got to shoot frequently to verify zero, practice dope and wind calls, and made sure I had plenty of m118lr on hand. This allowed me to effectively engage a group of guys at 1100 meters in failing light, when I had never shot that far in practice, let alone without a spotter.

I think military snipers have a much easier time shooting targets in different situations because they spend stupid amounts of time with the rifle and know it inside out and backwards. They don't have to pay for the ammo so they only have to rely on however much uncle sam gives them(which snipers get lots), and we do stress shoots to help mitigate adrenaline and shortness of breath in combat.

I did not attend a formal sniper school, and I don't speak for the SOCOM community or actual sniper units. I was just a scout handed a bunch of guns and told to figure it out and then given a crash course in SDM. But I do pay attention to logistics, and how the regular army operates in general.

 

[jrmiddleton425]

Practice. Load development doesn't make a rifleman; shooting does.

 

[Doc7]

In the book, Chris Kyle mentions quite a bit about how many notes they take on every shot they take during and after sniper school. He also writes how they use Black Hills ammo from a specific lot that he was given. I didn't get the impression at all that it was slap-and-go, but instead a knowledge of as many controllable factors as possible.

 

[guyfromohio]

They're better at it?

 

[waffentomas]

We learned to RL when i was in. 175gr SMKs. i was issued an M21 with a Schmidt & Bender 10x. Not sure what the heck the powder was, but we hand loaded them all. I suppose various units are different. My Gunny wanted us to be as precise as possible, to heck with 'convention'. Hezbollah and Abu-nidal feared us.

 

[Jeremy2171]

We learned to RL when i was in. 175gr SMKs. i was issued an M21 with a Schmidt & Bender 10x. Not sure what the heck the powder was, but we hand loaded them all. I suppose various units are different. My Gunny wanted us to be as precise as possible, to heck with 'convention'. Hezbollah and Abu-nidal feared us.

What unit were you with?

 

[Casefull]

They're better at it?

Now that is the answer to the OPs question. Ever ride around a racetrack in a regular car with a race driver at the wheel? People that are great shots and shoot a lot with a particular rifle get to "know it". Guys like Kyle are the ones that take the shot and keep shooting rather than brooding over each one. In my opinion.

 

[Glockula]

Isn't this where Dan Newberys' load development method would come into play? Why federal gold medal shoots so well in so many rifles. One of my old Marine buddies shoots at 1000 yes with his R25, Federal 175 grn match factory ammo and still gets consistent hits. You would be better served to reload but it is well within the realm of reasonable to achieved such things with good quality factory ammo.

 

[agtman]

* * * I did not attend a formal sniper school, and I don't speak for the SOCOM community or actual sniper units. I was just a scout handed a bunch of guns and told to figure it out and then given a crash course in SDM. But I do pay attention to logistics, and how the regular army operates in general.

CSC_Saint: FWIW, I just want to thank you for posting about your personal experience and, also, thank you for your service.

 

[WHISKY6]

My experience was similar to CSC above. My first tour in Iraq was as a Military transition Team (MiTT) Chief (advisors to an Iraqi Army Infantry Brigade) and all designated marksmen had M24s but the ammo was normal drawn from the ASP (ammunition supply point) 7.62. Most of the time it was delinked ammo, I was not aware of any hand loads in theater. Timeframe was July 2005 to July 2006, for what it's worth.

 

[crazysccrmd]

I had almost exactly the same experience as CSC. In Iraq my scout platoon had M24s and old M14s using mainly standard 7.62 ball with a very small amount of 118LR. Prior to Afghanistan we got the new EBRs to train up on and deploy with, along with a constant supply of 118LR.

 

[coyote315]

CSC_saint pretty much nailed it; that was the best we could do for a lot of our units; de-linked 240b ammo and build-your-own mounts for the m14s. Still were a nice addition to our usual M4 "needlers" though. Snipers miss, adjust fire, and hit w/ the 2nd shot pretty often. The longest shot the canadian sniper if I recall correctly made was his 10th round of the engagement. Our actual sniper teams at Brigade that would get cut down to us for specific missions actually put more work into getting closer, not hitting from farther away. I didn't witness one single instance of someone intentionally setting up some 900 meter ambush in 3 tours; that's what CROWS and AH-64s are for. Incidentally, I had a couple fine senior NCOs who were actual school- trained snipers in the 18th ABN Corps working for me on a team once. We went recreationally shooting our private weapons. These two were busting party balloons at 700 yards across a bean field, that we had put on tethers so they would move in the breeze. We were shooting from the prone w/ a pair of nice AR15s, one fine old hunting 30-06, and an unlikely ugly warhorse of an FAL. It was 90% proper wind and holdover/ dope, 10% that they had developed a flawlessly consistent trigger squeeze, and a dash of accuracy-by-volume. They could adjust and correct off the first shot by reading trace and have the 2nd round on the way before the dust settles on the first. That, I tried unsuccessfully to copy. We were all shooting factory ammo.

 

[strambo]

They don't use any 'ol ammo, they use issued match grade ammo and they also miss more than you think. Watch the Ft. Benning sniper competition series on Netflix, top teams in the world with plenty 'o misses under field conditions.

As far as barrel harmonics go, it isn't THAT important, the barrel length and performance of an M24 with M118LR is a known quantity that doesn't vary much. Working up a load with a 175g matchking would probably end up at about the same velocity for best accuracy as the factory load.

My 190g .300WM matchkings happen to group best @ 3000fps out of my 26" Win Mod 70 barrel (I worked it up via the ladder method), coincidence that a 190g matchking @ 2950 is the standard load? Certain formulas just work.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

I couldn't even begin to guess how much de-linked ammo we shot through m-21s, m-24s, Barretts, McMillans, AMACs and the like.

Glad I wasn't drinking coffee at the key board when I read the "handload" post above.