Why doesn't the military use more integrally suppressed rifles?

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jlbraun

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Why doesn't the military issue integrally suppressed rifles to regular troops?

I can think of all kinds of reasons why they should:
1. Less flash
2. Hearing protection
3. Higher battlefield awareness

Why not an integrally suppressed M4 and SAW? Same length as the regular weapon, a bit heavier, but a lot quieter.

My main angle for asking for this is if we're issuing NFA items to troops, their acceptance will grow.
 
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The chief advantage of a suppressor is that it defeats the "crack-thump" method of locating a shooter. Well-trained troops are alerted by the super-sonic "crack" of a bullet passing near, and then listen for the "thump" of the muzzle blast to locate the source of the fire.

This is, however most useful when only a single shot is fired -- when lead is flying all over the battlefield, it doesn't really matter if the "thump" is suppressed or not. So suppressors are most useful for snipers.

On the other hand, the weight and increased cleaning and maintenance penalties militate against putting suppressors on all rifles.
 
M4s with suppressors get really, really filthy really fast.

Oh, is this because it causes more gas to flow into the bolt carrier? Would this be mitigated by using a gas piston design?

On the other hand, the weight and increased cleaning and maintenance penalties militate against putting suppressors on all rifles.

What about decreased hearing loss of the troops? Surely that would help both in the long and short run.
 
The government gives our troops the bare essential tools needed because of cost so this logic of gas piston uppers is a great idea but it would never become a reality because of cost issues. EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE SPENT 500 BILLION ON IRAQ.
 
The government gives our troops the bare essential tools needed because of cost

Did Reuters or the AP teach you everything you need to know about the DOD?

There is plenty of money, especially if the product works.
 
The government gives our troops the bare essential tools needed because of cost so this logic of gas piston uppers is a great idea but it would never become a reality because of cost issues. EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE SPENT 500 BILLION ON IRAQ.
And in the process, replaced virtually every rifle in the service, going to the M4 and M16A4, equipped them all with optical sights, spent huge amounts on body armor and upgraded armor on everything from HMMWVs to Strykers and so on. That ain't unwillingness to give the troops what they need, by any definition!!
 
I am pretty sure that after a week's worth of combat, no solider would still be in possession of his silencer. "Battle field damage" would likely have claimed most.

Ash
 
Yeah there is plenty of money, after we are all taxed from it and they raise gas prices for about 5 or 6 months.
 
I am reminded of a Willie and Joe cartoon. Willie and Joe are walking along a road, and spaced all along the road are new canvas gas mask pouches. Willie says, "I see B Company got the new gas masks.":p
 
Vern do you not remember the hearings held in 2005-2006 with congress where soldiers were telling the congress what tools they felt were needed and why? Like Dragonskin bodyarmor which was proven to be more effective than the current body armor. It was all over CNN, newspapers, and MSNBC. I'm not trying to start a debate here, but I just feel that the government gives the bare essentials (remember they get special contract rates for M4's and Optics so yes they have to update certain things to keep up with other major countries, UK)
 
Grand standing congressional committees are not reliable indicators of what the military does or does not do.

There's a lot more to selecting and issuing equipment that someone deciding "I want it." Testing, contracting, delivery times and so on all enter into the equation.
 
To get back to the original question, why not more suppressed weapons, for example the M4

The real point is why??? This is combat not sneaky-beaky, sniping or shoot 'n scoot.

The point of a suppressor is predominately to suppress sound, to do this effectively you have to have a sub sonic round. If the round is supersonic the suppressor will only help to reduce the initial propellent sound, as soon as the round clears the barrel there's your noise.

As it is, an 5.56 round through the M4 14" barrel has dropped to ~2500 fps or less do you really need to reduce an already aenemic hit?

In addition a suppresor has a very limited life span, particularily if shot in fully automatic or burst which is the typical combat scenario.

You get no real benefits and lots of downside.

Now, a subsonic 9mm or .45 up close and personal.............:cool:
 
First, congressional appropriations are not a proper topic for the Rifle Forum, please take that discussion to PM.

As to the original topic, one major issue that nobody has yet mentioned is heat. A suppressor basically converts sound into heat. The resulting heat is hard on barrels and gas systems (and in direct-impingement rifles - bolts). Run a basic fighting load (210 rounds) full-auto through an M16 and you'll approach cook off temperatures in the chamber. Run 210 rounds full-auto through a suppressor and you'll either have a molten hot aluminium can with a hole in one side or a 6" light saber attached to the barrel.

An integral suppressor is especially not a great solution. For one, a rifle suppressor usually doesn't reduce velocity through porting, so making it integral adds no benefit over using a shorter barrel to begin with. On top of that, you are stuck with the extra heat, extra weight, extra pressure, extra length and extra filth whether you need it or not.

I think a good case could be made for wider use of QD suppressors; but as someone who has an Ops Inc. 16th Model for an AR15, I'd have to say that suppressors have as many limitations as pluses. The key, like they say, is to know your limitations. If the suppressor isn't a plus, remove it.
 
Ug, I hate when there is this much disinformation in a thread.

There are ever increasing numbers of suppresors in service. In SF units especially. I can't speak for regular army since I don't ever really work with them, but SF is starting to see a lot more cans in service. It really depends on the mission.

Anybody seen the new SPR? It has an OpsInc on it, and is perfect for its mission.

And yes, M4s with suppresors get a lot dirtier a lot faster.

Now for the wrong stuff:

The point of a suppressor is predominately to suppress sound, to do this effectively you have to have a sub sonic round. If the round is supersonic the suppressor will only help to reduce the initial propellent sound, as soon as the round clears the barrel there's your noise.
Negative. The supersonic crack is only "devestating" on the internet. The muzzle blast is the vast majority of the noise.

If you're playing ninja, then it matters, but if the goal is to protect your hearing, and still be able to communicate, then the muzzle blast is the problem, not the bullet passing through the air.

I can run a suppressed M4 full auto, with standard ammo, and people standing five feet away can carry on a conversation. I've got video on Youtube of me shooting a 10.5 AR with a can, and I'm talking while I'm shooting, and my voice is louder than the gun.

As it is, an 5.56 round through the M4 14" barrel has dropped to ~2500 fps or less do you really need to reduce an already aenemic hit?
You're off by a couple hundred feet per second, and also modern cans don't slow the bullet down. Modern machining is very precise and the bullet never actually touches the baffles.

In addition a suppresor has a very limited life span, particularily if shot in fully automatic or burst which is the typical combat scenario.
Maybe true a couple of decades ago, but many modern 5.56 suppresors are fully rated for full auto fire, and have a lifespan of about 50,000 rounds. Since you will usually wear out a few barrels before you kill a can, I don't see that as a problem.

You get no real benefits and lots of downside.
I've got a few dozen guys who've killed men in combat with suppressed weapons who would probably disagree with you just a smidgen.

Now, a subsonic 9mm or .45 up close and personal...
What? I've got an MP5SD. It is only a little bit smaller size than my suppressed 10.5 AR, except that the AR is launching a 55 grain bullet at 2,700 FPS, which absolutely smokes the 9mm in every possible way. I've got a ton of rounds through a suppressed .45 MAC, and the AR smokes it just as bad.

And here's the funny thing, as the shooter, there isn't a whole lot of sound difference between them. The 9mm sounds kind of chittery, and the MAC sounds like dropping a dictionary on the ground, and the AR sounds like a loud CHUFF noise. (downrange as the bullet passes you, it is louder, but to the shooter, it is very mild).

But since most people on the internet have never actually used a suppressed weapon, that damn myth about having to use subsonic ammunition WILL NOT DIE.

The only downside is cleaning. The direct gas impingement does get dirty fast. But even then, I can usually fire about 300 rounds before I need to start applying oil directly to the bolt carrier to keep it wet.

I am pretty sure that after a week's worth of combat, no solider would still be in possession of his silencer. "Battle field damage" would likely have claimed most.
Local SF company brought all of theirs home. But what do they know? They should probably check the internet more often for reliable information. :)

Honest opinion, suppresors keep getting better. The only real drawback is the extra amount of carbon they deposit in the chamber of direct gas impingement guns. And heat. They get really hot. So for a gun that is going to get tons of rounds dumped through it fast, don't let that thing touch flesh.

I fully expect over time for there to be more and more suppresors in service. Ten years ago it was really odd to have an Aimpoint on your gun, and look where we've gone since then.
 
Thanks Correia. I was mainly talking about regular grunts getting issued suppressors.
 
What the cool kids get first, pretty soon everybody wants.
About 20 years back, I was working a contract to develop BOIP (Basis of Issue Plans.) When the M9 bayonet came out, the rules restricted its issue -- and the Army band people were outraged they didn't qualify. They vociferously pointed out that they have a secondary mission as stretcher bearers.
 
I think one thing that has been overlooked in this discussion is the role of noise. If I'm a bad guy and all of a sudden guns start firing and it sounds like all hell has broken loose, I'm a lot more likely to turn around and run than if I just start seeing a few impacts hitting around me and hearing a few supersonic cracks. All the noise of rifles and machineguns will have a psychological effect on the enemy. Instead of only hearing the bullets that strike near him, he's hearing all the bullets that are being fired. Likewise, if you were part of a unit shooting suppressed weapons and your opponents were shooting unsuppressed, the fact that they're generating so much more flash and noise than you might create a morale problem.

I imagine the same thing is true when people start dropping around you and no one can hear the shots or identify where they are coming from. I would think however that for large units lots of noise would be a benefit and that for snipers, small ambushes and covert operations that suppressed weapons might be superior.

In any event, my personal experience regarding this is next to nothing, these are just some of the thoughts that occur to me. I was a 19D for 6 years in the NG and I never had to go overseas.
 
Elmer,

Insightful reply. I think you may be right WRT the role of noise in suppressing fire and morale.

However, consider that in MOUT we're operating almost room-to-room with small teams - firing an unsuppressed M4 inside is almost instant permanent hearing loss.

However, if someone is firing at me, he's just as dead if I shoot him with an unsuppressed weapon versus a suppressed one. :neener:
 
Old time subsonic and suppressors is strictly for close range ninja work.... where a modern suppressor becomes useful is in helping to mask the shooters location. That is invaluable no matter what scenario. In combat those few extra degrees of uncertainty given to the enemy are precious. And as correia said the ability to communicate better during a firefight is very important. It won't be long before they become very common.
 
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