Why doesn't the military use more integrally suppressed rifles?

[Kalashnikov]

The issue of hearing loss goes something like this. We're issued ear plugs and told to wear them. If we don't and we lose hearing, its our fault. In the end its more cost effective to issue 99 cent ear plugs and deny benefits for not wearing them, then it is to buy hundreds of thousands of suppressors.

 

[jlbraun]

In the end its more cost effective to issue 99 cent ear plugs and deny benefits for not wearing them

What BS. Isn't, you know, being able to hear an essential part of combat? Ear plugs just make our troops deaf and possibly dead, so I hear no one wears them.

 

[Correia]

The biggest reason I'm such a suppresor geek is because I do have hearing damage.

I have a hard time hearing anyone with a high pitched voice. I find that I have to be looking at my daughter's faces as they talk, otherwise I can't make out the words. I know there is noise, but I can't understand them. And that sucks.

I have to turn the volume on my phone all the way up or I can't understand the words. I drive the other guys in the gunshop nuts because if I was the last person to use the phone, it almost kills them when they pick it up.

I'm 32 and I say Huh? and What? and Say That Again? like somebody who is 65. I have a sneaky feeling I'm gonna need hearing aids as I age. So I'm pretty jealous of what hearing I have left.

 

[blackhawk2000]

elmerfudd, you know if you've ever been shot at. The bullet makes a very distinct noise as it passes you. I'm pretty sure hadji knows that sound too.

 

[Kalashnikov]

What BS. Isn't, you know, being able to hear an essential part of combat? Ear plugs just make our troops deaf and possibly dead, so I hear no one wears them.

I agree, most everyone doesn't wear them except at the ranges. But thats the DOD policy. They no longer give out disability benefits for hearing loss.

 

[jlbraun]

But thats the DOD policy. They no longer give out disability benefits for hearing loss.

Are there any active efforts to get that changed?

 

[rkh]

Are infantrymen allowed to wear personally owned electronic hearing protectors?

 

[pinstripe]

military

price

 

[armed85]

I think one thing that has been overlooked in this discussion is the role of noise. If I'm a bad guy and all of a sudden guns start firing and it sounds like all hell has broken loose, I'm a lot more likely to turn around and run than if I just start seeing a few impacts hitting around me and hearing a few supersonic cracks. All the noise of rifles and machineguns will have a psychological effect on the enemy. Instead of only hearing the bullets that strike near him, he's hearing all the bullets that are being fired. Likewise, if you were part of a unit shooting suppressed weapons and your opponents were shooting unsuppressed, the fact that they're generating so much more flash and noise than you might create a morale problem.

In Somalia, the militia the Rangers and Delta were fighting against were not a disciplined and well trained army. Yet, when the Rangers and Delta fired at them, they identified where they were and attempted to overrun their positions with hundreds of well motivated gunmen. Neither our guys or there guys ran away when facing enemy fire.

Vietnam and Iraq are similar as well. Poorly trained guerrillas or militia that use unconventional warfare and could care less about getting killed or killing one American for 5, 10, or more of their guys.

I'm no war historian, but I do serve active duty and study past conflicts.

With that said, suppressors are awesome. I would not want an integrally suppressed rifle however. I would want a standard M16A2 or M16A4 upper with a threaded barrel. I would use the suppressor when appropriate, but still have the option of what we use today. On when I need it, off when I don't.

The largest reason I can see for a standard issue suppressor is for communication. Being able to communicate is huge.

Keep in mind night vision goggles used to be for special forces only, but are quite common now.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Yes, I agree with the QD suppressor for military.

For civilian use, I can see an advantage to an integrally suppressed rifle because you can get SBR shortness but with a single tax stamp - which is nice. For military use though, I would rather be able to choose which mode I am going to use.

 

[Kalashnikov]

As far as I know, no the policy won't be changed any time soon.

Are infantrymen allowed to wear personally owned electronic hearing protectors?

That would fall down on the company commanders and 1st sergants.

 

[Selfdfenz]

jlbraum

Great question. I've been wondering about the answer for years.

Correia

Your comments make me think there is dar- sure a place for greater use of these tools. It always seemd to me [and I'm not a military type nor do I play one on TV] that in a combat situation between two elements that were basically matched for head count, skill, position and every other way, the group that had a hearing advantage would be way ahead. I think the comment regarding optics, then and now, is a perfect example of why there will be more weapons with moderators in the hands of our troops in the future. I hope that day is not far off.

If a wider use of suppressors in military circles leads to more demand in the private sector and, dare we say it, more user-friendly regs regrading their acquisition, what's not to like?

Best,

S-

 

[ceetee]

WRT to noise as a psychological tool, and with the greatest respect to those who have seen the elephant... I would think that suddenly hearing and seeing imacts all around your position, while also suddenly seeing your buddy drop dead soundlessly would impart much greater fear in you than if you could hear the muzzle noise and are therefore able to more precisely determine the locations of your attackers.

Kinda like being taken out by God's rain.

 

[tkendrick]

Lessee. Got a warning order, going on patrol.

Got my uniform, my helmet, my LBE, 8 loaded mags and 3 bandoleers, rifle, body armor, 2MRE's, 4 grenades-8 if you count my smoke, camelback and alice, NODS, extra ammo for the SAW, radio, bayonet, pocket knife, map, compass, extra med gear, sunscreen, sunglasses, goggles, combat pads.

Yeah, I weigh 175, and this garbage weighs only 140, pile another couple of unnecessary pounds on me, I love it.

 

[MisterPX]

What I haven't seen mentioned yet, is that if I get engaged in a firefight, support is less like to reinforce me if they don't hear where all teh gunshots are coming from

 

[kir_kenix]

Got my uniform, my helmet, my LBE, 8 loaded mags and 3 bandoleers, rifle, body armor, 2MRE's, 4 grenades-8 if you count my smoke, camelback and alice, NODS, extra ammo for the SAW, radio, bayonet, pocket knife, map, compass, extra med gear, sunscreen, sunglasses, goggles, combat pads.

i hear ya buddy, they seem to just keep wanting to shove more stuff on us all the time don't they?...lol.
seriously tho, my weapon gets pretty filthy over here just going to chow, i dont think i need the extra maintence work/worry either. for me anyway, the m16 muzzle flash/blast is pretty insignificant to the blaring thunder of .50 bmg rounds going off everywhere. maybe some dedicated super secret, highspeed-low drag guys might benefit from an suppressor, but i think i could do without.

 

[tkendrick]

Ok, now I'm on patrol

Can't hardly move, just took a couple incoming rounds from a sniper, echoes off the buildings make it sounds like it's coming from 16 different dirrections.

Good thing I didn't have my earplugs in, else I might be confused.

Anyway...got time to think about this while I laying here, rolled onto my side when I went for cover, something on my gear is snagged and I can't move till my battle-bud shows and helps me up!

Got my butt chewed a few minutes ago, might even get an article 15, seems I left my MOPP gear back at base. First shirt's ticked cause the Colonel saw it.

maybe some dedicated super secret, highspeed-low drag guys might benefit from an suppressor

Yep, reason we're on patrol is the Prima Donna SF types with the extra pay and the cool beanies have once again stuck their....uh, selves..... into an ant den and are whining for the REAL troops to come bail their Holywood butts out.

But...at least I got this cool suppressor thingy (that some armchair REMF decided was vital to my safety) hanging off the end of my rifle!

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Of all the gear I've had foisted off on me to "test" in combat, I think electronic ear muffs might just be worthwhile -- ear protection and superior hearing.

 

[tkendrick]

Of all the gear I've had foisted off on me to "test" in combat, I think electronic ear muffs might just be worthwhile -- ear protection and superior hearing.

Actually, I can see the sense in those too.

They issued some of those for us to test back in 1993 when I was at Ft Rich.
Problem was, you could wear the muffs or you could wear the Kevlar. But you couldn't wear both. So you know where that went.

Of course, by tradition, thy soldiers must wear the Holy Helmet, else they bee condemned to the firey pits of extra duty.

Someone earlier was talking about how the Govt had screwed the troops over by not adopting dragonskin body armor. There was some arguement over whether or not it worked better than or less than the stuff being currently issued, and I don't know which is true.

But I also heard that it was somewhere in the neighborhood of twenty-five to thirty pounds heavier. Far as I'm concerned, that's enough to never adopt it right there.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Actually, I can see the sense in those too.

They issued some of those for us to test back in 1993 when I was at Ft Rich.
Problem was, you could wear the muffs or you could wear the Kevlar. But you couldn't wear both. So you know where that went.

Of course, by tradition, thy soldiers must wear the Holy Helmet, else they bee condemned to the firey pits of extra duty.

I've had an Armored Personnel Carrier shot out from under me, and hit an anti-tank mine in another APC - among other adventures. I'm almost completely deaf in the right ear.

My answer is, if you can't wear the helmet over the earmuffs, re-design the helmet.

Or does that make too much sense?

 

[kir_kenix]

But I also heard that it was somewhere in the neighborhood of twenty-five to thirty pounds heavier. Far as I'm concerned, that's enough to never adopt it right there

alright...we got some guys here wearing the dragon skin as some sort of testing or whatever. when they compare weight they were comparing the stripped down iba w/o the side plates, wings etc. all in all we weighed this guys dragon skin against his issued iba w/ everything attatched to it and it was like 12 or 15 pounds heavier i think.

i know the purpose of this thread was supressed rifles, but i think that this goes to show that sometimes the military really is trying to do what is best for the troops. money has alot to do with it too...i mean who pays for the most reliable pistol they can find (suposedly) then subcontract out to get the cheapest, cruddiest magazines ever?

 

[Correia]

then subcontract out to get the cheapest, cruddiest magazines ever?

What, you don't like the Checkmate Pez Dispensers?

 

[kir_kenix]

What, you don't like the Checkmate Pez Dispensers?

seriously, the other day i had 34 malfunctions trying to fire 2 mags. thats 30 rounds of ammo! i dont know how that adds up...crazy. they were brand new too, i was getting pretty upset until i dropped 45 trouble free rounds out of the old mags. i think ill just stick to my old scarred up ones...lol.

 

[otomik]

My answer is, if you can't wear the helmet over the earmuffs, re-design the helmet.

Or does that make too much sense?

I thought that's what they did.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MICH_TC-2000_Combat_Helmet

based on the picture I think there's space for electronic hearing protection. got rid of some of that annoying teutonic/vader look too.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

i know the purpose of this thread was supressed rifles, but i think that this goes to show that sometimes the military really is trying to do what is best for the troops.

It also goes to show that any story that can be given an anti-milirary spin will be spun that way.