Why dont 223 AKs have AR15 magwells?

[beerslurpy]

Really. Nearly every rifle chambered for 5.56x45 takes M16 mags, but the AKs take bizzare german mags that work like ordinary AK mags. There is room for an AR magwell and I dont think it would add too much to the rifle's cost.

Is there something I missed?

 

[KaceCoyote]

They're Russian magazines actually, and the rifle was never marketed to civilians. It was intended to be sold to other nations desiring a nato caliber. The rifle, and the magazines are sold as a package set for nations desiring the weapon.

Kalashnikov didnt want flimsy magazines I imagine, even the polymer AK mags are MUCH stronger than AR mags.

 

[beerslurpy]

Does anyone still make 223 AK mags? I dont come across them very often.

Also, if the AR mags are so flimsy (not a surprise with all aluminum construction), why do upcoming rifles like the SCAR and F2000 use them? They could easily have gone for some new design or a better one already on the market.

 

[c_yeager]

The rifles were made for nations using the Nato cartridge, not for commercial export. Even if they were made for commercial purposes it would make little sense for Russia to export a rifle that required the use of U.S. magazines.

Also, if the AR mags are so flimsy (not a surprise with all aluminum construction), why do upcoming rifles like the SCAR and F2000 use them?

For one thing HK redesigned the AR magazine (they used steel IIRC) for use in their rifle. Also remember that the AR15 magazine has been considered to be semi-disposable. This works fine for the military but for civilian shooters who will keep reloading the same mags for many years it isnt such a great deal.

 

[clange]

They're Russian magazines actually, and the rifle was never marketed to civilians. It was intended to be sold to other nations desiring a nato caliber. The rifle, and the magazines are sold as a package set for nations desiring the weapon.

Kalashnikov didnt want flimsy magazines I imagine, even the polymer AK mags are MUCH stronger than AR mags.

I think he's talking about SARs, not the russian ones. But yeah, russia and bulgaria dont make rifles for US civilians, or at least thats not what they design and build tooling for.

The SAR-3s are just weird. I dont really know what the story was behind those.

Does anyone still make 223 AK mags? I dont come across them very often.

For romanian rifles, yes.

http://www.interordnance.com/Mercha...e_Code=INTERORDNANCE.com&Product_Code=SARPSET

Bulgarian mags are also made, but not as easy to find.

 

[NMshooter]

Actually there are several different .223 AK magazines, each for a different rifle.

No set standard, remember.

I cannot keep track of what goes with which, but if you search the AK portion of ar15.com you will find what you are looking for.

Hope this helps.

 

[JesseL]

From an engineering standpoint, it would be pretty difficult to make it workable and cheap.

The typical basic AK receiver is just a piece of sheet steel bent into a U shape. To add a magwell suitable for an AR magazine you would have to either build it as a cast/milled piece riveted to the receiver or built into the barrel trunnion (=$$$).

Alternativley it could take the form of a modification of the milled receiver AK (already $$$ compared to stamped), but this would require starting from a bigger block of steel (=$$$).

Either way it would make an already heavy weapon significantly heavier.

R.A. Heinlein once said that whenever a question starts with "Why don't they?", the answer is "money".

 

[VorpalSpork]

The rifles were made for nations using the Nato cartridge, not for commercial export. Even if they were made for commercial purposes it would make little sense for Russia to export a rifle that required the use of U.S. Magazines.

Russian or not, if you are going to make a rifle that fires a NATO standard rounds, it makes a lot of sense to also use a NATO, STANAG Magazine.

 

[goon]

I also think that this could be done without too much trouble.

 

[beerslurpy]

Are you guys trying to tell me that there is no way to make a stamped part that can fit around an AR15 mag and hold it in place? As long as the mag well is the right size and the catch protrudes in the right place, you could probably make it work and hold it to an AK receiver with maybe 4 rivets. Or you could molded synthetic isntead of a stamped metal piece and have it attach at existing rivet points.

The M16 magazine design is not much more complicated than most pistol designs or the design of the M10/Uzi/Sten. None of these guns had any difficulty incorporating a non-AK mag design into their stamped construction. These guns were all super cheap.

 

[Major Beer]

how do .223 AK's shoot?

i only own 7.62 ak's - but my AR-15 is primo.

never shot a .223 AK - how are they compared to the AR-15 in .223?

just curious.

 

[c_yeager]

Russian or not, if you are going to make a rifle that fires a NATO standard rounds, it makes a lot of sense to also use a NATO, STANAG Magazine.

From a commercial standpoint it makes a lot more sense to have it use a propietary magazine that the end user has to purchase from your factory. The factories that make the AKs also make magazines, so thats an interest for them.

 

[KaceCoyote]

AR mags suck, why on earth would you really wanna use AR mags?


I buy magazines that last.

 

[JesseL]

It's not that it's hard to make a design that works with an AR15 style magazine. It's not even hard to make an AK that would work with an AR mag.

You have to understand how AKs are made. AK factories are full of expensive (relatively) machinery and equipment designed specificly for stamping out AK pattern guns (including AK magazines) as cheaply as possible. All the stamping, casting, milling, turning, and forging tools are optimized for that design.

To build a stamped AR magwell to attach to the AK receiver would probably take a bit longer to make by its self than a whole standard receiver (assuming you invested in the extra equipment to make it). Then you would still have to go to the trouble of attaching it.

Then you have to retool to build AR magazines to go with it.

And what do you get? An AK with:

1. A weaker receiver because of the big notch cut out and replaced with a riveted in magwell.
2. A significantly less robust magazine.
3. A higher cost.
4. More weight.

Mac 10s and Uzis have their magwells inegrated in their pistol grips. Stens have the magwell welded to the barrel trunnion IIRC. They can all do this cheaply because they were designed that way from the start. Imagine trying to make an Uzi work with AK style magazines

I do think it could be pretty cool though, if an American company made a synthetic AK receiver with molded in bolt carrier rails and an AR style magwell that could be assembled with an AK parts kit.

Are you guys trying to tell me that there is no way to make a stamped part that can fit around an AR15 mag and hold it in place? As long as the mag well is the right size and the catch protrudes in the right place, you could probably make it work and hold it to an AK receiver with maybe 4 rivets. Or you could molded synthetic isntead of a stamped metal piece and have it attach at existing rivet points.

The M16 magazine design is not much more complicated than most pistol designs or the design of the M10/Uzi/Sten. None of these guns had any difficulty incorporating a non-AK mag design into their stamped construction. These guns were all super cheap.

 

[Correia]

It has been tried. I've seen prototypes and I know even Hesse built one.

However, I'm not aware of one that works.

 

[Dr.Rob]

.223 AKs shoot pretty well... 2-3 inch groups at 100 yards are not uncommon from a Chinese rifle.

The magazine incompatibility is a nuisance... during the ban you could have easily spent more $$ on magazines than the rifle that used them.

BTW Bakelite AK-74 mags work on Chinese .223 rifles with NO mods if you only load 20 rounds.

Tom Forrest used to sell .223 AK mags... don't know if they still do, check his ad in The Shotgun News.

 

[444]

"Stens have the magwell welded to the barrel trunnion IIRC."

No, the magwell of the sten is not welded to the receiver or barrel trunnion. It rotates around the reciever and acts as a dust cover for the ejection port.

To me, if you made an "AK" that took an AR magazine, then it wouldn't be an AK. The foundation of the gun, the receiver, would be pretty highly modified from that of an AK.

A guy I work with has an Arsenal AK chambered in .223. It seemed like a great gun. It took some kind of proprietary magazine which is the reason I lost interest in buying one. I personally don't see any good reason for buying an AK in .223. Why would you ?

I have heard for years about how M16 magazines are disposible. I have heard that the weakest part of the M16 weapons system is the magazine. I have heard many interent gun gurus talk about how weak the M16 magazine is. But, I have never known anyone that ever damaged one. I have in excess of 70 AR15 magazines: USGI, Thermold, SA80 mags, Orolites and every single one of them works fine and I never had any issues with them at all. I have served in the peace time US Army, stateside as well as 8 years in the National Guards of two different states and never encounted anyone that damaged a magazine. I am sure it has happened, no question that it has happend. I am sure that someone will feel obligated to tell me a story about how it happened to someone they know: but I would say it is extremly rare. And, telling a story about it doesn't really tell us much unless the person had several different magazines subjected to the same treatment and one of them was uneffected while one or more of the others was damaged.
I PERSONALLY put this whole thing down as a myth. You can choose to believe what you will.

 

[agtman]

Okay, maybe I don't get it ...

It's said the weakest part of the AR-15/M-16 is its 30-rd magazine, although some claim it's the allegedly anemic FMJ cartridge the AR fires.

The strongest feature of the AK is acknowledged to be its reliability under all battle field conditions, with the AK's magazine being the most reliable component in that system.

Why put the generally least reliable component of the AR into the middle of the AK's system?

If it's merely to have an AK that fires a .223 or 5.56-type cartridge, why not just go with what the Soviets came up with in the 5.45x39?

 

[VorpalSpork]

From a commercial standpoint it makes a lot more sense to have it use a propietary magazine that the end user has to purchase from your factory. The factories that make the AKs also make magazines, so thats an interest for them.

That would depend on the manufacturers business model. I'm sure they make a lot of money on overpriced magazines, but maybe they would sell a lot more rifles, if they used STANAG mags. Then again, since no one is doing it, maybe not.

But you said,

The rifles were made for nations using the Nato cartridge, not for commercial export

and if that is the case, I don't see how the commercial perspective is very important.

 

[beerslurpy]

Becase 223/5.56 is easy to get in this country, even in bad times (like after import bans on ammo, etc). AR mags will always be common in this country, while 5.56mm AK mags rarely are.

I personally went the 7.62x39 route, but some people will value accuracy and light recoil more than medium range barrier pentration and knockdown. I just wish there was a non-AR based 5.56 platform available that took AR mags. Right now it is looking like the SU16 currently fills that role as will the F2000 and the SCAR (possibly) later on.

 

[k_dawg]

while I am not sure about .223 specifically, Izmash/Saiga has several models with a magwell.


http://talks.guns.ru/forummessage/43/101959.html

 

[goon]

Just for the record...
I found a 30 round magazine under the seat of a 5-ton that I drove while I was in the Army. It was caked with who knows how many years worth of dirt, mud, other miscellaneous debris. I couldn't get the follower to spring back up when I would push down on it. I stripped it apart, scrubbed out the looser dirt, put it back together, and the bloody thing worked perfectly.
I think if you get good mags for an AR type rifle you will be OK.

 

[hartzpad]

while I am not sure about .223 specifically, Izmash/Saiga has several models with a magwell.


http://talks.guns.ru/forummessage/43/101959.html

Those are Saiga 12 gauges w/ the SWAT magwell, they are not rifles. Izhmash doesn't make AK or Saiga Rifles with a magwell.

 

[hartzpad]

Becase 223/5.56 is easy to get in this country, even in bad times (like after import bans on ammo, etc). AR mags will always be common in this country, while 5.56mm AK mags rarely are.

I personally went the 7.62x39 route, but some people will value accuracy and light recoil more than medium range barrier pentration and knockdown. I just wish there was a non-AR based 5.56 platform available that took AR mags. Right now it is looking like the SU16 currently fills that role as will the F2000 and the SCAR (possibly) later on.

Hmm....a non-AR based 5.56 platform available that took AR mags? There are quite a few:

1) Daewoo DR200 (uses AK like gas pistom)


2) FN FNC (based off AK action)


3) Robinson Armament XCR (proprietary system)

4) Galil ARM can take AR mags if you buy a Galil AR mag adaptor

5) Steyr Aug can take AR mags w/ a new stock w/ built in AR magwell


And like you already mentioned:

6) Kel-Tec SU-16 models (SU-16D pictured)

7) FN2000

 

[BFWE]

Thought about the Galil AR mag converter?

Have you considered the Galil AR mag conversion adapter. I have a chinese AK in .223 and have been considering either a IMI adapter or making one of my own.

This might be a possible solution for your situation...