Why I will not hesitate to shoot a charging dog

[kungfuhippie]

Jerry,
Please don't take my words out of context for your own purposes. That is what the anti's do.

 

[ozwyn]

owner should be charged with murder - dogs as the murder weapon, and the dogs destroyed.

in this case, the dogs have killed humans twice, which now means they are probably now conditioned to kill humans. that means they all must die - simple as that. Since the owner allowed them to develop into a pack without respect for human life, they are directly responsible for the deaths. All they did was use animals instead of a knife or gun.

 

[Jerry Morris]

I didn't mean all dogs if that's what you read into it.

explaination understood and accepted. Shall we hug and make up???

Jerry

 

[Cosmoline]

I am seriously thinking of carry either a small revolver or a knife, Thoughts,

My thoughts are skip the knife. If you're really dealing with an attacking dog, the VERY LAST THING you want to do is put your hands anywhere near its mouth. They'll become hamburger long before you can do any damage. The very best medicine is a good walking stick that doubles as a club. A smack on the nose is usually effective, and if not a beating on the head will work. One of those Irish walking stick clubs would be ideal. Or a proper spear, though I doubt you could carry one around without attracting the wrong sort of attention. You want to use your human advantages of leverage and height against the dog, which means keeping upright and keeping your hands clear of the teeth. A firearm is OK, but dicey if you're having to shoot down towards your own lower body parts for obvious reasons. Plus a dog with his blood up can sometimes withstand very serious injuries and not even seem to notice, but the same dog will recoil if smacked on the nose. It's an odd thing. I guess their noses are packed with nerves, and they value them like we value our eyes.

It's well known, but worth repeating, that virtually all these attacks are done by dogs operating in prey drive. The victim usually makes the mistake of trying to run and is taken down from calf or buttock strikes and then torn up like any fleeing deer would be. Turning and standing your ground negates the prey drive. I've been chased by many dogs on my bike and this always does the trick. If I shot every dog that chased me I'd be spraying bullets all over the city and would probably be in jail.

Of course, there is a small percentage of dogs who are trained to attack and are not just working in prey drive like a pack of wolves. But if you encounter these it's typically because you've snuck onto someone else's property for no good reason.

As far as when you can or cannot use deadly force on an animal, the law varies. Just don't do it when you're trespassing on someone else's property.

 

[Jerry Morris]

in this case, the dogs have killed humans twice, which now means they are probably now conditioned to kill humans. that means they all must die - simple as that. Since the owner allowed them to develop into a pack without respect for human life, they are directly responsible for the deaths. All they did was use animals instead of a knife or gun.

Now here is a concise and, I believe, rational statement I can stand behind. Don't allow emotion to get the messages across, be concise.

Jerry

 

[Clipper]

Michigan is a leash law state. The owner will be held liable under that law. Also, in most rural areas, any loose dogs that molest livestock or people are usually subject to being destroyed by the landowner without recourse by the dog's owner. I've been menaced by loose dogs in the woods when hunting, and when I lived in a rural farmhouse, I lost stock to drop-offs as well as local dogs. I probably shot at least 8 dogs...In fact, I had a 6X6X6 behind the barn for stray dog and other varmint carcasses. Toss 'em in and throw a couple shovels of dirt over 'em till next time. I filled 1 1/2 of those in 5 years...

 

[springmom]

while I was in my front yard has charged me and circled me barking then (they never use leashes) of course she say "Oh he wont hurt you", Yeah sure, and here is the kicker animal control has been out there twice so now I am seriously thinking of carry either a small revolver or a knife, Thoughts,

I walk my dogs regularly around our neighborhood; in fact, I always have the dogs with me if I'm out walking. We ***always*** have our dogs on lead. Most other people do too. It's the ones that don't that fry me.

I never, ever, ever walk without my gun on my hip, as protection from both four-legged and two-legged wild animals. If a chihuahua comes running up at me, that's one thing...anything I can drop kick faster than it can run doesn't worry me a lot. (j/k) Seriously, though, if somebody's pit bull comes tearing out after me, I will shoot. Those jaws can do a phenomenal amount of damage, and they are VERY strong. I don't have any inclination to deal with months of healing and physical therapy, thanks. I love dogs, have had them all my life, but a dog that will attack a human has earned a death sentence.

Carry the gun. Forget the knife.

Springmom

 

[Cosmoline]

a dog that will attack a human has earned a death sentence.

The best dogs I've known have all been trained to attack humans. Some actually have. None have been put down, though in once case the subject human got a suspended sentence. It seems counter-intuitive, but often the best way to control a dog not to attack is to teach it how to attack, and to obey orders like a solider.

 

[ZeSpectre]

I love animals, especially dogs, BUT...I was attacked by a dog as a child.
Fortunately my mother was nearby and beat it away by jabbing it with an umbrella. I guess that makes me a little extra-serious when topics like this come up.

Much like the way a cop has to think on duty, you simply can't take chances with an aggressive dog. Fido may, in fact, just be full of bluster but you can't possibly KNOW that.

People MUST keep their animals under control or failing that they shouldn't be so surprised at a bad outcome.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Fly,

When I lived on the farm our "dog problems" were a bit different. City people would get puppies of breeds unsuited for their lifestyle then when grown would bring them to the country and dump them. No doubt thinking some farmer would give it a good home. Instead these dogs would start running with coyotes and often crossbreed. These crossbreds would have the hunting instincts of the coyote and the dogs lack of fear of man. I cannot describe the risk to livestock these "dump dog" posed to livestock. My second live target was a Golden Retriever in the process of helping the pack pull down a calf.

Putting down (read shooting) stray dogs is part of the job description for livestock producers. When the producer is someone that dearly loves animals in general and dogs in particular it tends to be one of the hardest parts of the job. For the hell they have put my Dad and brother through I sincerely hope the devil has reserved the hottest part of hell for people that neglect their children or their dogs.

Selena

 

[MrPeter]

This story makes me want to carry more than just .38 spl +P.

I miss carrying my .45. Why do I have to have such big hands? (require big / unconcealable grips).

 

[Cosmoline]

Much like the way a cop has to think on duty, you simply can't take chances with an aggressive dog.

What's an "aggressive dog"? If you go around capping off any barking dog in suburbia, you're going to have a long list of lawsuits and some cuffs on by the end of your walk. People need to use common sense and avoid the fear mongering nonsense.

 

[Jerry Morris]

If the guy has a large group of animals and half of them run off in a pack and kill people, there is no reason to believe that the other animals (with the same training, environment, etc.) are harmless, especially if there is no way of telling which dogs were in the pack and which dogs stayed home.

Perhaps you are correct. Being a dog person, I think there are better ways, such as confiscating the animals and reviewing their potential for corrective training. The dogs, who have participated are definite threats and should be destroyed. And the owner barred from future keeping of dogs, or potentially dangerous animals.


Jerry

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

This story makes me want to carry more than just .38 spl +P.

When facing 10 rabid pit's, I think I'd want something with more capacity than a .45.

Maybe an an AR15 with a drum mag?

 

[230RN]

Officer's Wife:

Putting down (read shooting) stray dogs is part of the job description for livestock producers. When the producer is someone that dearly loves animals in general and dogs in particular it tends to be one of the hardest parts of the job. For the hell they have put my Dad and brother through I sincerely hope the devil has reserved the hottest part of hell for people that neglect their children or their dogs

True. I kept dogs, cats, chickens, ducks, geese, horses. Took a day trip with the family once and came back to find 13 chickens dead in the pasture. Not eaten. Just for "practice," I guess.

After that, any dog loose on my property was summarily shot. Period. No regrets, no apologies, no nuthin'.

Then you'd see the signs around: "LOST DOG. Answers to the name Poopsie-Doopsie-Schmoopsie-Cuddles. Call NNN-NNNN."

I figure anyone who leaves their dog to roam doesn't deserve a dog.

 

[ZeSpectre]

What's an "aggressive dog"? If you go around capping off any barking dog in suburbia, you're going to have a long list of lawsuits and some cuffs on by the end of your walk. People need to use common sense and avoid the fear mongering nonsense.

And some people need to use some common sense in their replies and not go extending a simple statement to ridiculous extremes. Leave that job to the lawyers.

 

[mpmarty]

I'd be more concerned with taking cover in a corner where the dogs couldn't surround me. Much like armed response to a gang attack. Get your back into a corner.

 

[Officers'Wife]

HI Springmom

but a dog that will attack a human has earned a death sentence.

When my husband was in Iraq I moved back to the family farm in Indiana. One day I found a dump dog and brought her home. She immediately "adopted" my daughter (15 months at the time) and became protective. Any stranger that gets closer to my daughter than Van Moody's comfort range is going to get a warning growl.

Would that dog attack someone without reason? No. Would she attack someone bothering Donna? You bet your life. Should the dog be given a death sentence for defending my child? I don't think so, if anything she'll get rewarded.

Selena

 

[Jerry Morris]

Maybe an an AR15 with a drum mag?

UHHMMmmm, maybe for Poodles. A 12 gauge pump with buckshot and a 1911 is what I'd carry in wild dog pack territory. And they really don't make a magazine extension long enough.

You need to KNOW dogs. They are incredible! They can soak up all kinds of shock. You needs lots of it and it needs to go to the boiler room. You need to know how a Pack functions. You best hope is taking down the Alpha Male and then use the ensuing confusion to your best advantage. If they are too close???? You are dog meat. This is the wild game animal, I speak of. The domestic rogue is no comparison.

Jerry

 

[alucard0822]

I do love animals, and think the actions of an irrisponsible owner contributing to tragedy are irreprehensible.
Dogs are creatures of instinct, they can be trained and taught a great many things, but their base instincts always remain, and without strong human intervention they will revert to pack hunters.
As far as effective defense, dogs are most dangerous when attacking in packs, and unlike people, they are not as quick to scatter if one or two is shot. It is also difficult to place effective shots quick enough on multiple dogs, but keep in mind the canines most signifigant feature, the nose. Dogs are very sensitive to irritants like OC pepper spray, and a quick burst will get them to scatter. I myself had a run in with a pair of big mutts while fishing a couple years ago, they tried to come from opposite sides (apparently upset I was not sharing the bait with them). Being a good law abiding MD resident (no CC for common folk), I had my 4oz can of fox labs spray clipped to my belt. A splash against the tree next to one dog sent him coughing and running away, the second dog ran at me, and a tiny splash in the face made him drop and scramble to get away, I was very surprised to see how effective it was. I remember seeing a statistic in outdoor life from alaska reguarding bear attacks, where non armed individuals were killed or seriously injured 60%, armed with a handgun (did not specify any more than that) were 65%, long guns were around 35% and checmical bear repellant was around 25%, they didn't provide much in the way of data, or how they got the statistics, but it did get me thinking.

 

[Cosmoline]

And some people need to use some common sense in their replies and not go extending a simple statement to ridiculous extremes. Leave that job to the lawyers.

Well what do you mean by "aggressive dog"? And what do you mean by "bad outcome"? Are you suggesting people shoot any dog that approaches them with a mean look in its eye? Broad pronouncements or hinted suggestions aren't much help. You need to be specific.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Jerry,

It depends on situation and terrain but I have to agree that an AR-15 isn't suitable. I would prefer my SAIGA 410 and my slightly forbidden 20 round magazine. After all, the tactical thinking of the 5.56 is non- lethal wounds that will take two additional hostiles out of the fight to care for the wounded. (or so I'm told.) But then I was raised by a guy that carried the attitude the best weapon "lets in a lot of air and lets out a lot of blood.

As for point of aim- you are best to avoid hitting the head if at all possible. Then the animal(s) can be posted for rabies afterward, saving you a lot of discomfort afterward if you are bitten.

Selena

 

[Tommygunn]

When my husband was in Iraq I moved back to the family farm in Indiana. One day I found a dump dog and brought her home. She immediately "adopted" my daughter (15 months at the time) and became protective. Any stranger that gets closer to my daughter than Van Moody's comfort range is going to get a warning growl.

Would that dog attack someone without reason? No. Would she attack someone bothering Donna? You bet your life. Should the dog be given a death sentence for defending my child? I don't think so, if anything she'll get rewarded.

Yeah, but I think you're talking about a somewhat different situation than most here. I wouldn't kill a dog for protecting a child in that situation, either.
In fact mostly the dogs I encounter I ignore, or in the case of my nephew's dog, he's friendly so I will pat him.
It's when they run unattended, especially in packs, that they become really dangerous.

 

[ZeSpectre]

Well what do you mean by "aggressive dog"? And what do you mean by "bad outcome"? Are you suggesting people shoot any dog that approaches them with a mean look in its eye? Broad pronouncements or hinted suggestions aren't much help. You need to be specific.

I wish you'd make up your mind. Do you want people to operate under generalized "common sense" or do you want specific parameters laid down? The two tend to stand at odds with each other.

But anyway, you want specifics? Fine... we'll use MMO (same as for any agressor)
Means - Does the dog have the means to cause me severe injury/death?
Motive - Does the dog appear to have the intent to cause me severe injury/death?
Opportunity - Does the dog have the access that would allow it to cause me severe injury/death?

If the answer to all three is YES then I tag it as aggressive and a threat and we go from there.

And by the way, implying that I'd

go around capping off any barking dog in suburbia

is the sort of "blood will run in the streets" transference BS that the anti's pull on us all the time so using that sort of argument here is probably not the best idea.

I was never talking about a yappy neighborhood dog behind an 8 ft fence or the pooch on the porch who gives warning barks to let passersby know that its his territory... sheesh talk about reading too much into a comment.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Isn't this why Europeans developed the "Velodog" family
of revolvers? So riders of bicyles--velocipeds--could defend
themselves from free-roaming dogs?