Why I will not hesitate to shoot a charging dog

[Officers'Wife]

Hi Tommy,

Sorry, but blanket statements are one of my little bugaboos and I felt the need to address it. My point is that a protective dog is a different story than a pack dog. Much in the same way a 15 or 16 year old out in the woods hunting rabbits with a shotgun or rifle is a different story than the 15 or 16 year old gang-banger cruising with a Mac-10 or a 9mm looking for a drive by.

Selena

 

[Gato Montés]

"Oh he wont hurt you"

I remember the first time I was bit started like this. Women in park with some Collie mix has her dog off leash running around. I was taking a stroll when the mutt sees me and runs up to me. I look around and I see the owner smiling. "Don't worry, he's friendly." Then bam, I get this terrible sensation right above my knee. The thing bit me before I even realized it. Now it wasn't that bad of an injury, nothing serious, but man did it hurt.

I equate someone telling you their dog is friendly while off leash to someone pointing a gun at you and telling you it's unloaded. I don't know that, and until I have absolute proof I believe the opposite. Still love dogs though.

 

[Jerry Morris]

Well what do you mean by "aggressive dog"? And what do you mean by "bad outcome"? Are you suggesting people shoot any dog that approaches them with a mean look in its eye? Broad pronouncements or hinted suggestions aren't much help. You need to be specific.

I think we are both on the same track here. Many people do not understand dog language. And it is hard to explain it to them. The common human reaction is fear, which is the wrong reaction.

I have a reputation for handling "mean" dogs. And I can tell the difference between the common "mean" dog and a truly mean one. I have been called the dogs "Bee Charmer", by the uninitiated. Dogs know an insult, or a show of weakness when they see one and I never offer them either.

And for crying out loud, all dogs bite. Don't ask for one! If you get one, know how to handle it. I learned my lessons, I got bit. It was my fault, not the dogs. I am tired of all the whining over a little nip, by someone harassing a domestic dog or trespassing into its territory. There are rules in dog language. If you do not know the language, stay away. This does not apply to the rogue dog, before another avalanche of complaints come up.

Show me your typical "mean" dog and in a days time, he/she is gonna be my buddy! Let a truly mean dog show up, it will be caged up and waiting for Animal Control, or dead.

All of this fear is counter productive.

Jerry

 

[hso]

Folks,

If you want this thread to continue please try to refocus on the firearms issues and not debate whether shooting dogs is good and under what circumstances it is or isn't.

 

[Picknlittle]

I like dogs, prefer cats though. I used to keep dogs but moving around on active duty was not all that dog friendly.

I do tend to believe there are aggressive breeds and the majority of folks that own them don't own them because they are cute and cuddly. I've lost count of the redneck dumba**s I've heard brag "yea, old spike is one bas A** dog! He'll eat yer a** up in a heartbeat!". Then the same DA lets the BA dog run free to terrorize the neighborhood. I have one common name for these dogs when they come on my property,...target.

Harsh? Maybe, but I had a incident in San Diego once upon a time that firmed up my respect for immediate response to these dogs.

I was living in military housing in Terra Santa. I had a neighbor with a truly mean hienz 57, pick of the litter mutt, that he frequently allowed to run free. Without fail, this dog would chase my wife back into the house, hackles raised, teeth barred. I asked repeatedly that the dog remain restrained and was told to mine my own F***ing business. I called base police, they told
him to restrain the dog. He did for a short time, then thought it would be funny to sic the dog on folks, including me and my wife, then laugh and chain the dog back up.

I've mentioned that I was a bow hunter tournament shooter once upon a time. By WSA rules I averaged 540 out of a perfect 560 at tournaments. Since leaving Washington state and moving to San Diego, I had very few places to shoot so I listed my rig for sale. I had it laid out on the tailgate of my truck to show to a potential buyer when the following happened.

Wife comes out, dressed to go to a wedding shower. You know, nice dress, heels, etc. Snot fer brains turns his dog loose and here he come across the yard. My wife turns and tries to get back in the house, nearly falling in hose and heels. I instinctively pick up the bow, nock a broadhead tipped arrow and begin my draw on the dog. Neighbor screams "Shoot my dog I'll kick yer F'ing a**!", then calls the dog back, it stopped in it's tracks, while DA came for me. I swung the bow around toward him and gave him a choice. The dog averted his attention to me and I shot the dog in mid air. I promptly nocked another arrow.

The base police came, and why I didn't get picked up for drawing down on DA, I'll never know. I think one of the base police that responded was one that originally told him to keep the dog restrained or put him down. At any rate, since that time I don't screw with dogs. If it appears to be viscious, and intent on harming me of mine, it's dead. Gun, bow, knife, shovel or stick, it really doesn't matter.

Bottom line is that dog/pet owners are responsible for their well being, safety, feeding, housing and training. It ya don't want it to become a target, don't teach it to be a target. The dog in my San Diego episode was part doberman, part german sheperd and part mutt. It weighed about 75 pounds, had an ugly disposition and was a threat. Homey don't play!


While hunting, I have kill four wild dogs. Three with bow, one with gun. All were stalking me.

 

[Sniper56]

About 10 years ago I was deer hunting on a lease in South Alabama and encountered a small pack of wild dogs. We had several reports from neghbors who adjoined our property that they suspected a pack dogs were killing some livestock (calves, chickens, etc) but no on had actually seen them.

I was in a ground blind about 8 AM when I picked up movement of something coming towards me (lots of cover brush so it was hard to see them). At about 50 yards they came out into an open area and it was six mongrel dogs.
Two of them moved forward growling in a very serious way and I knew this was not good. I yelled a couple of times and made a bunch of noise but they were not the least bit frightened.

When the first one was 20 yards away I put one 30.06 round square in his chest; he dropped like a rock and the second one slowed but continued toward me and I then shot him. The other four dogs scattered. Neither of the two I shot had collars or any type ID.

We reported it to the local LEO who said I was lucky. I don't believe either of the two would have stopped had I not shot them.

 

[2RCO]

I don't have a problem with any specific dog breed. That includes Pitts and Rotts. I personally have small terriers and if they were to bite without cause or a kid for any reason they eat lead or get put to sleep by the vet depending on what time of day it is.

Dog packs are extremely dangerous and once a dog has been in that environment its dirt nap time.

 

[eric.cartman]

Would this be legal in FL?

Last Friday my wife and I went out to a restaurant (Shooters, Ft. L.). On the way there (33rd Ave) a lady with a dog on a VERY long leash approached. The dog charged me. I stepped back and pulled my wife with me. The dog barely missed my leg. The stupid woman with earphones mumbled something while pulling the leash. No need to use a gun there. And I didn't. I told the lady to keep it on a shorter leash, and she didn't seam to care at all. :banghead:

Anyways, this got me thinking... since I've seen some pitbulls and other beasts around, would I be justified in shooting one if it charged my wife and me? Same scenario. Taking a walk in the evening... I would not let any animal put any scars on my beautiful wife ( http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=62963&stc=1&d=1188177663 ) yea, I'm a one lucky guy

But would using deadly force against a large animal to protect her and myself land me in jail?

 

[TallPine]

Start talking guns, people, not dogs.

7.62*39 works great on dogs

 

[2RCO]

7.62*39 works great on dogs

So do .22 shorts if you don't want everyone to know about it.

A fraternity buddy of mine got in some serious dog doo in College for using a paintball gun on one that was constantly crapping in our yard. Dogs owner was pretty agitated and so where the Bunny Huggers on campus.

 

[Dirty Bob]

What would be the minimum pistol caliber for dog defense? If dealing with a human threat, I would personally want nothing less than a .380 ACP, 9x18mm Mak, or .38 Special. After reading this thread I'm thinking I'd feel undergunned against a large, vicious dog with anything less than a .40 S&W or .45 ACP.

Regards,
Dirty Bob

 

[shooter429]

Pack animals descended from wolves

When out and about they form packs. The only time I have been charged or attacked by animals has been feral dogs. I was bitten once, but upon several kicks to the face, the dog stopped. That was in my own yard and I did not have my gun on. These are the only animals I have had to fire at either. I have given 3 different leaders warning shots at their feet while in the back 40. Thankfully, the leader has always turned. The last time, about 2 months ago, I thought I might have to open up on the pack as they did not immediatly stop at the first shot and a kid was with me, but just as I was squeezing on the leaders head, it stopped short. I yelled and they turned and ran. Thank God. Scary as hell. And as my .44 was in for work, I was carry8ing a little .22 Kit gun.

Shooter429

 

[2RCO]

Dirty Bob,

It's all about distance and shot placement. Many a marauding mutt has joined the big pack in the sky with assistance of a .22!

 

[Il Duca]

in before all the "but pitbulls are such nice dogs, it's how you train them" crowd steps in...

Here I am, sorry I'm late. It is how the dogs are raised and trained and used, not neccessarily the breed. A pack of German Shepherds or Labradors, Malamutes or Chihuahuas could easily begin to act the same way these dogs did if let run wild in a pack. The pack mentality takes over and there you have it, dead joggers.

And we will probably never know how many of these dogs are actually Pit Bull Terriers since an American Bulldog, Boxer and many other breeds often become Pit Bulls when people aren't sure. "Cuz if it resembles a Pit, it must be a Pit right?"

 

[wheelgunslinger]

My future brother in law had to shoot a rottweiler that was charging at him. It took one well placed 45 acp slug from a Sig Sauer to stop that dog. It fell like the proverbial sack of potatoes despite being a large full grown dog.
He also owns a Boxer and wasn't at all inclined toward killing the animal. But, he had to do it.

 

[Mr White]

Also, this is general GUN discussion. Start talking guns, people, not dogs.

OK. If I wanted to shoot these particular dogs, which caliber would work best?


I agree that packs of dogs are dangerous, but people have to realize too that every dog that runs toward them is not out to kill them. You have to be able to read their posture, and its really not that hard. These 2 will sometimes get loose and when they do, they'll run up to anyone who happens by. Not to bite them, but because they're potentially someone who'll pet them.

If someone sees these 2 running at them, their first reaction might very well be fear, but one look at their gaits, their tails (although the one on the right's tail is only about 3" long) and their heads should make it pretty clear that they're friendly. There may be some pack mentality between them, but its more likely along the lines of "I wonder if this person has packed some food and if so, will they share it with us?"

 

[Jerry Morris]

What would be the minimum pistol caliber for dog defense? If dealing with a human threat, I would personally want nothing less than a .380 ACP, 9x18mm Mak, or .38 Special. After reading this thread I'm thinking I'd feel undergunned against a large, vicious dog with anything less than a .40 S&W or .45 ACP.

It is more what you can shoot very accurately, very quickly. If you can do a very good CNS shot, .380 will likely do it, 9mm for the truly heavy boned dog, is better.

If you only wound it and do not deter it, you are in for some serious experience. An enraged dog is bad news. If it runs away, a BB gun will do.

Personally, I think the dog threat, while it exists, is overstated. Pretty much like the anti-gunners argument. It is more a perceived threat caused fear, than a really common one. Learning dogs never hurts. We should not fear the guns, or the dog.


Jerry

 

[Officers'Wife]

Hmmm,

My Dad used to get on the second floor deck of the old house and kill the coyote dogs with a 30-06. Then he bought what he calls his "big fricking rifle." It's not pretty to see the results of a dog or coyote hit by a 50 caliber BMG @ 700 meters. It's a humane kill but ... not pretty.

Selena

 

[springmom]

When my husband was in Iraq I moved back to the family farm in Indiana. One day I found a dump dog and brought her home. She immediately "adopted" my daughter (15 months at the time) and became protective. Any stranger that gets closer to my daughter than Van Moody's comfort range is going to get a warning growl.

Would that dog attack someone without reason? No. Would she attack someone bothering Donna? You bet your life. Should the dog be given a death sentence for defending my child? I don't think so, if anything she'll get rewarded.

That is not what the discussion is about. If someone breaks into my house, I'd be surprised if my dogs did NOT defend me. We are not talking about defense. We are talking about dogs allowed to roam at will and chew people's throats out.

Those dogs deserve to die.

Springmom

ETA: And the caliber I carry in case I need to is usually .45 acp, but frequently just my .38spl with +P's.

 

[rdhood]

I agree that packs of dogs are dangerous, but people have to realize too that every dog that runs toward them is not out to kill them. You have to be able to read their posture, and its really not that hard. These 2 will sometimes get loose and when they do, they'll run up to anyone who happens by. Not to bite them, but because they're potentially someone who'll pet them.

While I agree in principal, it is not up to ME to read their posture.

It is up to the owner to control them. Dogs do not "sometimes get loose". Owners get careless. Yes, I have seen dogs that could wiggle out of their collars or chew through their leashes. That is still the owners fault/responsibility, not the responsibility of innocent passers-by. It is unacceptable for someone to know that their dogs "sometimes get loose". The first time it happens is a surprise and you are forgiven. The second time it happens, it's your fault.

Even if someone knows dogs and knows their posture, one often has only a split second to make that decision. Dogs can be stealthy and on you in a heartbeat. You simply cannot expect anyone to give the dog the benefit of the doubt.

I have had dogs all my life. I've trained them to strictly obey commands. If I say "stay", I mean it and the dog knows it. All dogs have the pack mentality. A dog that I own knows that I am the pack leader. Period. It takes its orders from and obeys me. It is lower on the totem pole than ALL humans in the pack (i.e children and other family members). It can work out its pecking order with the other non-human members. Dogs that have spent time in another "pack", i.e the original poster's story on pit bulls, may not ever be able to completely adjust to life in a human pack. They should all be put down.

 

[Prince Yamato]

While I am for shooting vicious dogs that attack, I would watch any laws passed concerning this. Some people, as stated before, don't know "dog language". I am a dog person. Dogs know this and tend to gravitate towards me. I also can tell when the dog is genuinely mean. Most of the time it's stupid people who are at fault, and unfortunately, it's the animals that pay the price for their owner's negligence.

I think if we raised the level of criminal charges for dog attacks we'd see fewer of them.

I don't know why, but for some reason, this kind of garbage seems to happen in the US more than in Europe or heck, even Canada. When I was living in Toronto, people frequently would walk their dogs around the city and even in the Manulife center (which was like a giant underground mall that also housed multiple subway stops). None of the dogs attacked anybody. You'd even see people walking Dobermans and other "deadly" breeds, and nobody got bit. The only time I was ever nipped was when I asked to pet a stranger's puppy, which probably didn't know what the heck was going on and decided to play with my fingers.

 

[springmom]

OK. If I wanted to shoot these particular dogs, which caliber would work best?

Dogs like that get pats on the head and lots of love and attention. Those two might kill you by knocking you over with their wagging tails, if their smiles are any indication....

Good looking puppies!

Springmom

 

[txgho1911]

A relevant question may be:
How many domestic family or farm dogs together will learn or just start operating like a pack. Have seen multiple reports of the generous sheltering and rescuing lady or gent who's dogs have turned feral in the yard and behind a fence. (Perfect home security system if you can keep them in the yard).

As for a pack that is killing people under chase or not. That will include every adult dog that stayed home. I have two that animal control caught in a field about a year apart as pups. Mixed breeds and personalities. If one or both gave evidence of aggression outside of the yard I would have to consider downing them. Teaching them that the side walk is not the yard is another lesson.

If the bad dog is near home then the 45/70 would be the best medicine. Otherwise the 45 rules.

 

[silverlance]

for those of you who've been here long enough, you might remember my experience with a dog last year. some idiot on my street has a habit of letting his pitt/rott mix wander around unleashed. i was walking my dog and the thing ran up and bit him several times. he coudln't fight back because he got tangled up in the leash. my hand got cut up by the leash as well (it was one of those retractable ones, never buy those!). my dog is 75lbs, the rott/pitt is 150. it cost me over 1k after insurance (i have both dog and human insurance), of which the "nice old man" who owns him has not paid a cent. he claims that he is poor, is unemployed, the house belongs to his daughter and not him.. etc. the house is worth 850K, by the way.

i went to see my lawyer - actually several lawyer friends, and they all told me that i have no chance of getting anything. oh id win in court, easily, but there would be no way of actually recovering any money.

ok, now for the gun part. i live in CA. can't carry a gun because lee baca (our chief leo) isnt giving out any permits. i can't carry pepper spray more than 2oz (so bear spray is out). I can't carry a cane sword, or a spear, or even a club. knives longer than 3.25" are out.

i plan to move one day, but can't afford to. so this is what i do to adapt:

1. i don't walk the dog during mid-day. walks are only at 6am and 10pm. to me, this isn't cowardice. this like avoid a gunfight.
2. i am very situationally aware when i go jogging or walking. i depend on my vision to see things far up ahead, and my dog's senses to let me know if something is waiting in ambush (i've had a pack of racoons try to attack us)
3. i carry a jogging belt. the belt is an old usgi lc2. on it are a pouch for a can of pepper spray, a pouch for my cell phone, a pouch for my e2d, and a pouch for a good folding knife.
4. i carry blackbear's mag 951 in my right hand. in my left hand (i am righty) i have the leash.

i have already planned for events in advance. if a dog attacks me, i will try to scare it off. otherwise, i will let go of my leash and while my dog is in the fight i will try to gut it like any wild boar. the pepper spray, etc, is for other theats. if i'm really lucky, i might be able to simply beat it off with the flashlight. if not, i have a plan.

personally, i believe that the most important part is that plan.

 

[rino451]

I agree that packs of dogs are dangerous, but people have to realize too that every dog that runs toward them is not out to kill them. You have to be able to read their posture, and its really not that hard. These 2 will sometimes get loose and when they do, they'll run up to anyone who happens by. Not to bite them, but because they're potentially someone who'll pet them.

If someone sees these 2 running at them, their first reaction might very well be fear, but one look at their gaits, their tails (although the one on the right's tail is only about 3" long) and their heads should make it pretty clear that they're friendly. There may be some pack mentality between them, but its more likely along the lines of "I wonder if this person has packed some food and if so, will they share it with us?"

ETA rdhood beat me to it!

I agree but...

I've had the same issue. On occasion mine will get out and I would think the same as you, however, if someone shot my dog(s) while out I'd shed a tear, suck it up, and call it a good shoot. My dogs death was my fault because it's not anyone's responsibility to determine what their intentions are. It's my job to make sure it's contained.

The problems that I see most are:

#1 Lots of owners want to be friends with their dogs (and kids) and not the pack leader. As mentioned before, they fail to realize that "The domestic dog is property, just like the gun."
#2 Containment.
#3 Most owners are afraid to reprimand them (and their kids) with the appropriate amount of force. (Granted, debatable...)

Side story, we have new neighbors on our cul-de-sac that haven't been introduced to our dogs. One of the kids was overheard saying "That's why we don't go outside when the dog's out." once when our biggest ran out to the island to try and cop a squat. Apparently the parents have already had a talk with their kids. Personally, I don't have a problem with my dogs off a leash, but with other people around, I leash 'em - there's no accounting for the actions of others otherwise.