Why is much of Europe still sticking with the 9mm?
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No offense taken... I've been called worse things than a gun-dropping, too-stupid-to-count, European coward.
Not much worse, though.
I think it's almost time for someone to show up with the "relate caliber to dick size" stuff.
Regards,
Trooper
"... the revolver to wheelgun..." Eh? Never mind. The Europeans use a 9mm pistol because they routinely issue smg's to their beat cops. Smg's are seen as specialist's weapons here. Up here, our cops shouldn't have a pellet gun never mind smg's. They are the absolute most careless firearm handlers anywhere.
maybe in europe they use 9mm to non fatally injure someone instead of putting them in a pine box.
Well... they're not issued as a personal weapon, but we have instant access if we ever need them. We have to qualify every 6 months with them (which is a lot of fun
).BTW did anyone bother to think that most SMGs also shoot 9mm x 19 ??
Regards,
Trooper
Actually, the 9mm may represent a serious upgrade for some European agencies. If I'm not mistaken, it wasn't unheard of for street cops to carry .32 or .380 or 9mm 'police' in that part of the world.
The 9mm parabellum is probably quite impressive compared to some of their former rounds. I can't imagine going to a barricaded subject w/possible hostage armed with a .32 on my hip (unless there was an MP5 in the trunk!)
Besides, the 9mm in a modern, potent bullet design with primers/poweders designed to maximize efficiency out of a prescribed barrel length will most likely ruin a bad guy's day. The ammo companies have 'come a long way,baby.' My G17's published muzzle energy is above that of my father's USP .45 compact. (I'm just noting an engineering accomplishment-I love 9mm, .38, and .45 equally!)
Maybe the drug-crazed PCP maniac who won't go down to anything but a .308 is an American phenomenom? Maybe they haven't had to deal with that type of fail-to-stop as much overseas?
The 9mm parabellum is probably quite impressive compared to some of their former rounds. I can't imagine going to a barricaded subject w/possible hostage armed with a .32 on my hip (unless there was an MP5 in the trunk!)
Besides, the 9mm in a modern, potent bullet design with primers/poweders designed to maximize efficiency out of a prescribed barrel length will most likely ruin a bad guy's day. The ammo companies have 'come a long way,baby.' My G17's published muzzle energy is above that of my father's USP .45 compact. (I'm just noting an engineering accomplishment-I love 9mm, .38, and .45 equally!)
Maybe the drug-crazed PCP maniac who won't go down to anything but a .308 is an American phenomenom? Maybe they haven't had to deal with that type of fail-to-stop as much overseas?
actual officer-related shootings are so few in this country that few conclusions can be drawn from them. Exchanges of gunfire are even rarer.
Haven't seen much of a gun culture here. They seem to be more concerned with putting flowers in gun barrels than bullets around these parts (Heidleberg)
Try asking one of those infamous American Soccor Moms the same question and you'll get about the same results.
Try asking one of those infamous American Soccor Moms the same question and you'll get about the same results.
I am an American, and reading some of the drivel in this post makes me cringe. The 9mm is a very popular cartridge in the US, and for good reason, it works. I am a prosecutor in a jurisdiction that has a large amount of shootings by police officers. Our officers carry semi-autos chambered in 9mm. I review all officer-involved shootings and I have no doubt that the 9mm works extremely well. Our officers feel the same. Unfortunately, in this country, like many others, we have some very egotistical "big mouths" who drone on and on how the 45 is all that and a bag of chips. Just ain't so people. Before our officers adopted the 9mm, they were issued the 45, and we had disturbing number of failures to stop with it. I'm talking multiple round failures to stop. I invite some of our resident 45 lovers to tell our cops how the 9mm sucks and the 45 is it. They would laugh you right out of the county! Some folks equate the caliber of what they carry on their hips to equal to what they have between their legs. How very pathetic.
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Uhhh, now I am a .45 guy at heart but if you don't think 9x19mm will put you in a pine box mighty fast you are quite simply ignoring 100 years of history. There be a lot of people in a lot of pine boxes shot with that inadequate european round.
Chris
cz75man,
now correct me if I'm wrong, since you're a prosecutor and all that, but I seem to recall that most police agencies in the USA issued revolvers firing .38special as the main duty firearm. .45ACP, .44special, .357 magnum, and 9mm were a tiny minority until the largescale conversion to 9mm in the 1980-1990s. What county do you work in?
now correct me if I'm wrong, since you're a prosecutor and all that, but I seem to recall that most police agencies in the USA issued revolvers firing .38special as the main duty firearm. .45ACP, .44special, .357 magnum, and 9mm were a tiny minority until the largescale conversion to 9mm in the 1980-1990s. What county do you work in?
"most police agencies in the USA issued revolvers firing .38special as the main duty firearm. .45ACP, .44special, .357 magnum, and 9mm were a tiny minority until the largescale conversion to 9mm in the 1980-1990s"
I don't know what most police agencies in the USA do, I just know the ones in my jurisdiction. Our Sheriff and the major metro police dept. in the county both adopted the .45 Auto in the early 1980's. The load was a very well regarding hollow point at the time, I don't remember which, I think it was either a 200gr or 230gr hollow point. The results were terrible. As I said before, many multiple round failures to stop, and these were with good solid torso hits. Around 1990 or so 9mms were adopted. The Winchester 115gr +p+ round was used. Results were excellent. Since that time, the Winchester 127gr +p+ round has been adopted, results continue to be excellent. My jurisdiction is +/- 1,000,000. Law enforcement in my area thinks the 45 Auto is crap.
I don't know what most police agencies in the USA do, I just know the ones in my jurisdiction. Our Sheriff and the major metro police dept. in the county both adopted the .45 Auto in the early 1980's. The load was a very well regarding hollow point at the time, I don't remember which, I think it was either a 200gr or 230gr hollow point. The results were terrible. As I said before, many multiple round failures to stop, and these were with good solid torso hits. Around 1990 or so 9mms were adopted. The Winchester 115gr +p+ round was used. Results were excellent. Since that time, the Winchester 127gr +p+ round has been adopted, results continue to be excellent. My jurisdiction is +/- 1,000,000. Law enforcement in my area thinks the 45 Auto is crap.
"***you are quite simply ignoring 100 years of history. There be a lot of people in a lot of pine boxes shot with that inadequate european [9mm] round."
Well, I guess if that "history" includes all the POWs, military deserters, Eastern European political dissidents, victims of genocide (and, more recently, "ethnic cleansing"), and anyone else shot from behind while staring into a ditch, you'd have a fairly large number.
Heck, if you just could nail it down to a specific number, it might even boost the 9mm's "one-shot-stop" rating.
Well, I guess if that "history" includes all the POWs, military deserters, Eastern European political dissidents, victims of genocide (and, more recently, "ethnic cleansing"), and anyone else shot from behind while staring into a ditch, you'd have a fairly large number.
Heck, if you just could nail it down to a specific number, it might even boost the 9mm's "one-shot-stop" rating.
being a genuine European (in fact I live in the heart of Europe: Belgium ) I should say a few words on this topic.
first of all: our police forces here in Belgium never encountered problems with their 9mm's. our 9mm bullets are loaded to +P levels, so they generate more power than a .45ACP, believe it or not.
we never had the "Miami-shooting incident", and our crime figures are very low (at least when compared to the great US of A ). there is absolutely no reason to drop the 9mm for a .40 or .45.
if you firmly believe that the 9mm was intended to stop rather than to kill, you better start believing somthing else. in fact, the one-shot/one stop % of the 9mm is about as high as that of the .45ACP (62.2% vs 62.8%), at least in FMJ.
) I should say a few words on this topic.first of all: our police forces here in Belgium never encountered problems with their 9mm's. our 9mm bullets are loaded to +P levels, so they generate more power than a .45ACP, believe it or not.
we never had the "Miami-shooting incident", and our crime figures are very low (at least when compared to the great US of A
). there is absolutely no reason to drop the 9mm for a .40 or .45.if you firmly believe that the 9mm was intended to stop rather than to kill, you better start believing somthing else. in fact, the one-shot/one stop % of the 9mm is about as high as that of the .45ACP (62.2% vs 62.8%), at least in FMJ.
Hey, look up the S&W Regulation Police, or Colt Police Positive. Those things weren't exactly chambered in bear-killer calibers, and they were regulation issue for American beat cops at one point. (The hides of crooks must have gotten thicker lately.)
Until the late 1970s, the vast majority of U.S. law enforcers was armed with S&W or Colt wheelguns loaded with .38 Specials. They changed to 9mm and other calibers around the same time when many European agencies abandoned the .32 and .380 for the 9mm. Prior to the Wondernine age (and the international terrorism of the 1970s), neither American nor European cops were routinely armed with anything that would constitute "optimal defense caliber choice" among many members here.
It may have to do with Europe's terrible experience in WW2. More people there than here have a high aversion to violence. For example, consider that Europeans who were most affected by WW2 might hate the idea of defensive shotgun, while we absolutely relish it. If that's true, it could extend to handgun calibers.
The Europeans may actually believe in the phrase "If it Ain't Broke, Why Fix It". Sounds plausible to me.
@ PC Load Letter:
No I'm really not offended by some of the more patriotic postings in this thread!
At least WE §$&%ing Krauts can legally own high-capacity mags for our wondernines and other firearms. A 20-round magazin for my Beretta 92? NO problem.
And since April 2003 we can also buy the most "evil" super expanding hollowpoint bullets.
We've got all the firepower and all the stopping power we desire.
In 9mm Luger, .40 S&W or .45ACP.
No I'm really not offended by some of the more patriotic postings in this thread!
At least WE §$&%ing Krauts can legally own high-capacity mags for our wondernines and other firearms. A 20-round magazin for my Beretta 92? NO problem.
And since April 2003 we can also buy the most "evil" super expanding hollowpoint bullets.
We've got all the firepower and all the stopping power we desire.
In 9mm Luger, .40 S&W or .45ACP.
Now calm down, kiddies!
Boy this is an interesting thread!!
I am not personally a great fan of the 9mm, but I have no doubt it WILL indeed kill someone and I am NOT willing to stand up and be part of the 'better caliber' experiment. I saw a failure to stop with the Nine, but that does not mean it is worthless at all.
Europe has not had the same experiences in Law Enforcement that we have. There is less criminal violence there(though that seems to be changing), but they have dealt with the terrorist threat alot longer than us.
We got to deal with Injuns, wolves, those pesky Redcoats, bears, tommygun packing bottlegger's, PCP, Crack and welfare fed, pumping iron prisoner types through out our history. Similar perhaps to some of the British Empire building where the .455 Webley was King.
Cannot say things have calmed down alot, can say the gun and ammo have improved considerable. From 32's in Europe and 38's here to something more substantial in both cases.
There is lot of validity in the claim of the 9 being Primary in Europe because is has been around so long, it is what they are used to, it seems to work most of the time(NOTHING is 100% not even America's favorite 12 gauge trombone), there is compatability between the handguns and the subguns the Police over there get to pack as necessary(lucky them!), and the fact they have so few Officer involved shooting compared to the Wild West environment of the New World.
More civilized? Ummm, WWI, WWII did not show anymore civilized behavior than our own ethnic cleansing program with the American Indian.
Yes, they have mandates and restrictions...so do we. We have a more gun oriented culture for sure!! And have a fascination with 'bigger is better' from our cars, to our buildings, aircraft carriers, guns, breast size on our ladies, and the Harley hawgs bellowing down the road. We American's are Excessive! Always looking for new and improved.
I carry a pistol every day, and I carry a .45 auto because I think it is the best. But if I were suddenly faced with having to pack a Nine for some weird reason, I would not consider myself inadequately armed(though undoubtedly I would complain abit)...with a good hollow point, Nine will do if I do.
It is not the size of the bore(or muscle) but how you employ it. The man, not the machine.
There are differences in American's and Europeans...OK, but people is people. And the Flag waver's need to understand that we have our weaknesses too, that cannot be compensated for by the size of our machines/tools.
That exercise in a modicum of decorum out of the way, I can say...
At least we are not French!!(but they can buy suppressors there!)
Jercamp45
Boy this is an interesting thread!!
I am not personally a great fan of the 9mm, but I have no doubt it WILL indeed kill someone and I am NOT willing to stand up and be part of the 'better caliber' experiment. I saw a failure to stop with the Nine, but that does not mean it is worthless at all.
Europe has not had the same experiences in Law Enforcement that we have. There is less criminal violence there(though that seems to be changing), but they have dealt with the terrorist threat alot longer than us.
We got to deal with Injuns, wolves, those pesky Redcoats, bears, tommygun packing bottlegger's, PCP, Crack and welfare fed, pumping iron prisoner types through out our history. Similar perhaps to some of the British Empire building where the .455 Webley was King.
Cannot say things have calmed down alot, can say the gun and ammo have improved considerable. From 32's in Europe and 38's here to something more substantial in both cases.
There is lot of validity in the claim of the 9 being Primary in Europe because is has been around so long, it is what they are used to, it seems to work most of the time(NOTHING is 100% not even America's favorite 12 gauge trombone), there is compatability between the handguns and the subguns the Police over there get to pack as necessary(lucky them!), and the fact they have so few Officer involved shooting compared to the Wild West environment of the New World.
More civilized? Ummm, WWI, WWII did not show anymore civilized behavior than our own ethnic cleansing program with the American Indian.
Yes, they have mandates and restrictions...so do we. We have a more gun oriented culture for sure!! And have a fascination with 'bigger is better' from our cars, to our buildings, aircraft carriers, guns, breast size on our ladies, and the Harley hawgs bellowing down the road. We American's are Excessive! Always looking for new and improved.
I carry a pistol every day, and I carry a .45 auto because I think it is the best. But if I were suddenly faced with having to pack a Nine for some weird reason, I would not consider myself inadequately armed(though undoubtedly I would complain abit)...with a good hollow point, Nine will do if I do.
It is not the size of the bore(or muscle) but how you employ it. The man, not the machine.
There are differences in American's and Europeans...OK, but people is people. And the Flag waver's need to understand that we have our weaknesses too, that cannot be compensated for by the size of our machines/tools.
That exercise in a modicum of decorum out of the way, I can say...
At least we are not French!!(but they can buy suppressors there!)
Jercamp45
At least WE §$&%ing Krauts can legally own high-capacity mags for our wondernines and other firearms. A 20-round magazin for my Beretta 92? NO problem
Ouch!!!
Ouch!!!
wanderinwalker
Member
Why not use the 9mm? It has done, and will do nicely. Might I add that I love shooting my Glocks.
But can I ask the European-members here, how often do you use a handgun for the hunting of game animals over there in Europe? Or carry one through the woods for peace-of-mind? (Notice I did not say defense of self from animals, which isn't a common occurence.) I honestly feel that this might have something to do with American bigger-is-better-ism. Anybody?
But can I ask the European-members here, how often do you use a handgun for the hunting of game animals over there in Europe? Or carry one through the woods for peace-of-mind? (Notice I did not say defense of self from animals, which isn't a common occurence.) I honestly feel that this might have something to do with American bigger-is-better-ism. Anybody?
@ wanderinwalker:
Handgun-hunting is illegal in Germany and in a lot of European Counties.
Some hunters carry a handgun to finish off a wounded game aminal at short distances. Mostly 9mm Luger autoloaders or .357 Mag snubbies.
Handgun-hunting is illegal in Germany and in a lot of European Counties.
Some hunters carry a handgun to finish off a wounded game aminal at short distances. Mostly 9mm Luger autoloaders or .357 Mag snubbies.
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