Why is muzzle discipline so hideously poor amongst Olympic shotgun shooters?

[HetchHetchy]

Why is muzzle discipline so hideously poor amongst Olympic shotgun shooters? Amongst many shotgun shooters for that matter?

I know a shotgun cannot fire when it's empty and broke-open, but why rest the muzzle on one's foot? The worst is after many shoot. They clear their shotguns and then immediately sweep everyone in sight with their shotgun's muzzle before slinging it over their shoulders.

In many other shooting disciplines this sort of behavior would lead to a DQ or at least a warning.

Is sloppy muzzle disciplines amongst shotgunners one of those "it's a tradition" dealio?

 

[sequins]

I think break open shotguns which are broken open are traditionally considered the same as chamber flagged guns, in that they are visibly mechanically inoperable, and thus a sweep is forgiven.

 

[HetchHetchy]

I think break open shotguns which are broken open are traditionally considered the same as chamber flagged guns, in that they are visibly mechanically inoperable, and thus a sweep is forgiven.

I can't think of a single discipline that I have competed in where muzzle-sweeping with a gun which has a flag in its chamber is allowed. Certainly not as casually as the Olympic shotguns shooters.

 

[barnbwt]

Because Jeff Cooper didn't brow-beat the entire rest of the world (nor the NRA for that matter) about fingers on trigger guards and et cetera

I wasn't into guns at the time, but I get the distinct impression that not twenty years ago even Americans were blase about muzzle sweeps compared to now. Then the internet came, and forum trolls started hassling people about anything less than near-paranoid levels of safety measures. A lot of it then was ignorance, a lot of it now is over-reaction, but it's better we err on the side of safety since it really doesn't impact how we enjoy the shooting sports all that much.

The finger off the trigger 'fad' alone is probably responsible for most of the accidental shooting decline (you even see it among 'ignorant' criminals and TV stars, now, who don't even know how to use iron sights)

TCB

 

[9mmepiphany]

Why is muzzle discipline so hideously poor amongst Olympic shotgun shooters? Amongst many shotgun shooters for that matter?

It is just a different gun culture. Not sweeping people with the muzzle of a gun isn't universally unacceptable depending on the condition of the weapon and the circumstances of use

Many people go overboard in muzzle awareness, an example of which are folks who won't wear a horizontal shoulder holster because they think they are breaking the rule of sweeping everyone behind them...they are just misunderstanding the rule

Another culture that has what you would call "hideous muzzle discipline" is LE. In many LE academies, a lot of time is spent teaching cadets to point their muzzles at suspects.

 

[hso]

There's nothing unusual about this at all.

In shotguning a broken open single or double gun is as good as disassembled for safety. There is no way for the firearm to discharge when broken open as the action is separated from the chamber.

The shotgun community is adamant about the need to keep the firearm broken open until on the line for the safety of the competitors and those watching and judging the competition.

 

[Tirod]

A single shooting discipline conducted on a flat grassy range in good weather for recreational purposes, no. I can't think of any fun and games where muzzle discipline is ignored.

Work as an LEO or in a combat unit in the Army and you will get over it quickly. It's not that you don't pay it any attention, no, it's very much part and parcel of the skills you try to practice. But there is also a very real reliance on team work and trust along with the mandatory execution of the task at hand. You don't get to call a time out while the Range Safety officer lectures you on muzzle discipline when the opposing force is actually trying to maim or kill you by direct fire.

Hence some of us have a slightly biased attitude about it. Goes with the expression we state with curled index finger - "this is my safety."

There are plenty of ranges and courses of instruction where the gun handler is loaded and locked at all times - not dangling an inoperative weapon broken open with the muzzle pointing down. And I also note that despite our best efforts, we do lose about 1 special operations soldier annually just practicing live fire annually. That doesn't make the loss acceptable, but the intent is to prevent doing it in a mission and to gain the team work necessary to keep that loss from being even higher.

And the volunteers for that level of risk are standing ten deep in the application line.

We have different levels of risk acceptance and for the most part may never agree on it - just keep in mind the ones that do accept a lot higher risk are the ones protecting our rights to disagree.

BTW I carried my CCW in a shoulder holster on a trip to Myrtle Beach this summer, even wore it on the beach when I knew I wasn't getting in the surf. I probably muzzled thousands of people over seven days. And I likely got muzzled more than once daily, too, because concealed is concealed. There are literally thousands of CCW in this county, plus LEO, and open carry is legal. I get muzzled daily at work - all with holstered handguns.

Work in a team with loaded weapons and it becomes a very cooperative and mutually respectful atmosphere where everyone is intent on being better at it, knowing that no matter how good we may get, things will change and we will need to accept risk. Live gun handling is entirely different than range gun recreational exercises.

 

[Jim Watson]

Not just Olympic Skeet; the shotgun on the toe pose is near universal among Skeet shooters. You can even get a little pad held on by your shoe lace to keep from sooting up the toe of your shoe. And the OU over the shoulder is just taken for granted.

I think Trapshooters (like me) are better disciplined. For one thing, you don't have time between shots to shift your position and rest the gun on your foot. For another, the No 5 shooter rotates to the No 1 stand behind the rest of the squad and is darned well required to keep his gun unbreeched. Most of us are careful to keep the gun pointed at the ground or at the sky as well when moving.

 

[ATLDave]

In the shotgun games world, a broken-open gun with empty chambers isn't really even seen as a gun.

OTOH, if it's closed and you're not the shooter, you're going to get yelled at no matter how disciplined you are with muzzle and trigger.

It results in an equal, if not greater, level of safety than the 4 Rules. In that particular context.

You just must be careful not to mix and match the more permissive elements of the two approaches/regimes.

 

[herkyguy]

For the well-schooled, an open shotgun is not a problem.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Acera]

Not just Olympic Skeet; the shotgun on the toe pose is near universal among Skeet shooters. You can even get a little pad held on by your shoe lace to keep from sooting up the toe of your shoe. And the OU over the shoulder is just taken for granted.

Got some of those. Even got a brand new one recently as a replacement for one I wore out when I was shooting 2-3 times a week. Nice Beretta logo on it and everything.

Shoot enough sporting clays and you will find you can't avoid this, even more than skeet. Just the nature of the sport, not any more dangerous than other shooting endeavors.

Regarding overzealous muzzle guys, I know of a few who will not go to a gun show because of all the guns laid down on tables and being constantly facing the muzzle of dozens of guns. Their loss.

Why is muzzle discipline so hideously poor amongst Olympic shotgun shooters?

So to answer your question, it is not. It is just your impression of it that is not inline with the reality of those sports.

.

 

[WestKentucky]

It's all a point in culture. Some cultures react to guns by banning them outright because they are too dangerous. Some cultures allow the "norm" to be firing rifles and pistols in the air in celebration...as if those bullets never come down. Here is the US we are somewhat safety paranoid on the issue of sweeps, and rightly so. Other places could give a rats hind end about it. The Olympic Games are the ultimate mixture of cultures and you will see some of each and every bit of the spectrum.

Getting into shot gunning sports in general, from what I have seen, there is a heavy focus on keeping guns clear when not in shooting station. If the guns are kept clear then they don't go boom. I do agree that sweeping should be avoided and should be one of the fussing points, but it's not going to be until someone starts demanding it. Put a big name in the sport on the soapbox and have them fuss about it and practice what they preach. It won't take long to start a movement in that culture.

 

[threetigerboys]

I don't know why but from an NRA Range Officer they are breaking 1 of the 3 rules for range safety - always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction...

However, it is even more important on the world stage, as all kinds of people that are really young, may be never held a gun, etc. will repeat what they "see" on TV.....scary stuff if you ask me....

 

[Jim Watson]

Regarding overzealous muzzle guys, I know of a few who will not go to a gun show because of all the guns laid down on tables and being constantly facing the muzzle of dozens of guns. Their loss.

If an attendee should casually pull the trigger on a gun show display and the gun just happened to be loaded, results will be bad.
I have been there twice. One hole in the ceiling, one patron bleeding on the floor.
Of course that required more than one safety precaution to be broken, but that happens, too.

 

[taliv]

Many people go overboard in muzzle awareness, an example of which are folks who won't wear a horizontal shoulder holster because they think they are breaking the rule of sweeping everyone behind them...they are just misunderstanding the rule

They're not breaking the rule when the gun is in the holster. It's getting it in and out where they almost always cover themselves and their neighbors. And that's a pretty dangerous time too because it's easy to get a finger or jacket or shirt in the way and snag the trigger. I've personally witnessed someone standing a few feet from me put an extra hole in his leather jacket. I'm convinced it's an unsafe way to carry.

I don't get overly agitated over a break open shotgun. But I have noticed all the guys with autos aren't any more considerate. and I don't have a super high opinion of people who rest the gun on their toe either but hey. It's their toe.

Despite the above, like the rules of grammar, if you understand them then you can make a calculated decision about when it's OK to break them.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I do a lot of different shooting and even belong to a trap league. The worse muzzle discipline I see with out a doubt is at the trap range. I know they are broken open. However you should never point the muzzle at anything you are not willing to destroy. Period.

 

[shooter1]

A single shooting discipline conducted on a flat grassy range in good weather for recreational purposes, no. I can't think of any fun and games where muzzle discipline is ignored.

Work as an LEO or in a combat unit in the Army and you will get over it quickly. It's not that you don't pay it any attention, no, it's very much part and parcel of the skills you try to practice. But there is also a very real reliance on team work and trust along with the mandatory execution of the task at hand. You don't get to call a time out while the Range Safety officer lectures you on muzzle discipline when the opposing force is actually trying to maim or kill you by direct fire.

Hence some of us have a slightly biased attitude about it. Goes with the expression we state with curled index finger - "this is my safety."

There are plenty of ranges and courses of instruction where the gun handler is loaded and locked at all times - not dangling an inoperative weapon broken open with the muzzle pointing down. And I also note that despite our best efforts, we do lose about 1 special operations soldier annually just practicing live fire annually. That doesn't make the loss acceptable, but the intent is to prevent doing it in a mission and to gain the team work necessary to keep that loss from being even higher.

And the volunteers for that level of risk are standing ten deep in the application line.

We have different levels of risk acceptance and for the most part may never agree on it - just keep in mind the ones that do accept a lot higher risk are the ones protecting our rights to disagree.

BTW I carried my CCW in a shoulder holster on a trip to Myrtle Beach this summer, even wore it on the beach when I knew I wasn't getting in the surf. I probably muzzled thousands of people over seven days. And I likely got muzzled more than once daily, too, because concealed is concealed. There are literally thousands of CCW in this county, plus LEO, and open carry is legal. I get muzzled daily at work - all with holstered handguns.

Work in a team with loaded weapons and it becomes a very cooperative and mutually respectful atmosphere where everyone is intent on being better at it, knowing that no matter how good we may get, things will change and we will need to accept risk. Live gun handling is entirely different than range gun recreational exercises.

Yes! Sums it up. Not everyone works and trains on a square range!
str1

 

[Chief 101]

the only things you can control is yourself and those that are nearby...its not your job control competitive shooters of that caliber to your standards, it just isn't going to happen...stay safe...

 

[RalphS]

I shoot a lot of trap, skeet, 5 stand and sporting clays.....

If the action is open, the shotgun is safe. It doesn't matter where the barrel is pointed.

If the gun is loaded or the action is closed, that shooter had better be on the line and the shotgun had better be pointed downrange. The other shooters are watching for this.

We don't use yellow safety flags....ever.

We don't use the safety on the gun either.

If this makes your head want to explode, then maybe the clay target sports are not for you. It's been done this way for over 100 years.

 

[Sistema1927]

According to the logic of some folks here one should never look down the barrel of a disassembled gun.

An open break action shotgun is 100% out of commission, and readily apparent.

 

[Saw-Bones]

RalphS - “If this makes your head want to explode, then maybe the clay target sports are not for you. It's been done this way for over 100 years.”

I’ve been shooting Skeet and International Skeet for 45 years and it is as you say, but maybe it’s time for a change.

When using a break-action gun you can maintain muzzle discipline by hoisting the stock to your shoulder by the barrel while always having the barrel pointed to the ground with very little effort. This maintains the second rule of gun safety by removing the “exception for shotgun sports” and reinforces the concept. There is NEVER a question where the barrel should be pointed.

Semi and pump action shotguns present a problem in that the ejection port may not always be visible to other shooters or the public. When hunting with others and using these actions you would maintain muzzle discipline, so what’s so hard about doing it while competing? How about some bright person inventing a muzzle pad that attaches to the shoe that doesn't cover body/feet parts? I have an idea in mind that I think would work - an elastic band that goes around the instep with a short extension away from the foot with a resting pad on the end... no charge for its use!

Good habits are hard to break when there are NO exceptions…. just sayin’.

.

 

[evan price]

There are always people who go too far on safety, it dilutes or obscures the message. A gun that is obviously and unarguably unloaded and incapable of firing isn't the problem.
I knew a guy who sweated his gun safe because all those muzzles pointed up, and he had a second floor above it. Wanted to put a thick steel plate above the safe.
Crazy.

 

[vaupet]

A broken shotgun is as safe as it gets, the culture is probably coming from the hunting grounds, were people walk all day long in groups through fields and hedges and muzzle sweep is inevitable.
That is why in many European hunting parties semi auto's and pump action is not liked by fellow hunters: you can't see at a glance if the gun is safe.

About resting the muzzle on your shoe: with a broken gun it is perfectly safe and if you would try trap or skeet, resting the muzzle on a soft and clean shoe-tip is the most comfortable way to rest the gun without any risk of damage or fouling, when on the shooting line.

So a brooken gun is safe and it's safety is clear, even from a distance to anyone but the blind (oops, visiually impaired)

 

[230RN]

Didn't we go through all this, with a virtually identical question and almost identical answers recently?

But perhaps that was another forum...

Hmmmm.


Terry

 

[HetchHetchy]

the only things you can control is yourself and those that are nearby...its not your job control competitive shooters of that caliber to your standards, it just isn't going to happen...stay safe...

I never suggest or implied it was -- their "caliber" not withstanding.