Why is the 45-70 so popular?

[CraigC]

Either that or the wrong caliber.

Wrong bullet and/or placement. The .45-70 is more than capable.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

I wonder if all you 45-70 in Africa fans remember why the .458 Lottwas conceived. The .458 Win magnum the 45-70 ALMOST equals was found lacking.

 

[CoalTrain49]

To answer the OP: Because this is a damn sexy gun and by law the only thing that it is allowed to eat is .45-70

What is that? Browning 1885 HW?

I want one.

 

[CoalTrain49]

He was using the wrong bullet.

AND, the wrong cartridge. Who would shoot a rhino with a 45-70?

Was he/she trying to prove a point?

I thought the professional guides in Africa would have nixed that crap.

 

[Llama Bob]

I wonder if all you 45-70 in Africa fans remember why the .458 Lottwas conceived. The .458 Win magnum the 45-70 ALMOST equals was found lacking.

That's not really the case. The .458WM is perfectly fine as it stands today - remember that the .404J and .450/400 were the game control rifles of choice for decades, and the .458WM outperforms both by some margin.

The issues that motivated the .458 Lott were actually ammo issues. The stories have become muddled over time, but there were definitely some very slow if not non-igniting loads that came out of the Winchester plant. Whether it had to do with the wrong powder, too little powder, or a powder that should not have been compressed but was is now confused. But the thinking behind the Lott was that more case capacity would make it easier to get loads that were reliable. That thinking was basically wrong. What was needed was .458WM loads with the right charge of the right powder. But of course when you get people convinced they need a bigger case, the thing takes on a mind of it's own. Strangely, no one's decided the .450NE needs to be made bigger even though it's the ballistic twin of the .458WM.

 

[Llama Bob]

AND, the wrong cartridge. Who would shoot a rhino with a 45-70?

Was he/she trying to prove a point.

I thought the professional hunters in Africa would have nixed that crap.

Looking back earlier in the thread, I think he was hunting hippo, not rhino.

That said, there's a least two bullets for the .45-70 that should provide pass through performance on either species - the punch bullet and the northfork solids. Hardcast lead will also typically work, although I would not recommend it because it's not completely reliable - you can get bullet shear sometimes.

PHs should be looking at what bullet is being driven at what velocity. If that combination is appropriate for the game, it doesn't really matter what's on the case headstamp.

 

[Llama Bob]

Dupe.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

That's not really the case. The .458WM is perfectly fine as it stands today - remember that the .404J and .450/400 were the game control rifles of choice for decades, and the .458WM outperforms both by some margin.

The issues that motivated the .458 Lott were actually ammo issues. The stories have become muddled over time, but there were definitely some very slow if not non-igniting loads that came out of the Winchester plant. Whether it had to do with the wrong powder, too little powder, or a powder that should not have been compressed but was is now confused. But the thinking behind the Lott was that more case capacity would make it easier to get loads that were reliable. That thinking was basically wrong. What was needed was .458WM loads with the right charge of the right powder. But of course when you get people convinced they need a bigger case, the thing takes on a mind of it's own. Strangely, no one's decided the .450NE needs to be made bigger even though it's the ballistic twin of the .458WM.

Winchester fixed the powder problem. The result was a load 150 feet per second less then the original .458. Winchester can't fix it, but you can? Game control was done with what was available at the time. We've got better today. Improve the .450NE? It's what 120 years old? Thats the gold standard?

 

[Llama Bob]

Winchester fixed the powder problem. The result was a load 150 feet per second less then the original .458. Winchester can't fix it, but you can? Game control was done with what was available at the time. We've got better today. Improve the .450NE? It's what 120 years old? Thats the gold standard?

Most modern .458WM ammo meets the original spec - 500gr 2150 through a 26" barrel. And that spec is fine - in fact 1900 ft/s would have been fine. The problem is when the powder is bad and you get 700 ft/s.

There is no hunting situation where a .458 Lott is suitable and a .458WM with functional ammo is not.

 

[CoalTrain49]

PHs should be looking at what bullet is being driven at what velocity. If that combination is appropriate for the game, it doesn't really matter what's on the case headstamp.

How are they going to know that?

Is that info on all 45-70 commercial ammo? Bullet type maybe but not velocity. Somebody is going to run it through their radar and ask for a refund.

 

[Llama Bob]

How are they going to know that?

Is that info on all 45-70 commercial ammo? Bullet type maybe but not velocity.

If you don't know the velocity or bullet type of the ammo, then it's not appropriate for dangerous game. That's a general rule regardless of caliber. You should be able to find out for anything reputable commercial. For handloads, the client better know.

 

[CoalTrain49]

If you don't know the velocity or bullet type of the ammo, then it's not appropriate for dangerous game. That's a general rule regardless of caliber. You should be able to find out for anything reputable commercial. For handloads, the client better know.

I was referring to the PH, not the person who wants to use their 45-70.

You said,

PHs should be looking at what bullet is being driven at what velocity. If that combination is appropriate for the game, it doesn't really matter what's on the case headstamp.

I have a feeling that a PH isn't going to get into that. Commercial ammo and certain cartridges required would be my guess.

 

[Llama Bob]

I was referring to the PH, not the person who wants to use their 45-70.

You said,


I have a feeling that a PH isn't going to get into that. Commercial ammo and certain cartridges required would be my guess.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. I've yet to have a conversation with any PH who was opposed to unusual gun choices as long as the result was a good bullet suitable to the game going an appropriate speed. After all, there are very few standard guns in Africa - I guess a M70 in .458WM or .375 H&H is about as close as you'll get, but there's 5 other weird things for every one of those. In fact, I know quite a few PHs who have been OK with combinations I personally would not risk - like hardcast in a Marlin 1895 for cape buffalo, rhino and elephant. And no, they didn't bounce off or penetrate a few inches.

 

[CraigC]

AND, the wrong cartridge. Who would shoot a rhino with a 45-70?

Was he/she trying to prove a point?

I thought the professional guides in Africa would have nixed that crap.

It was a hippo and ALL the Big 6 have been taken with handguns so.....

It's not my first choice but I wouldn't hesitate to hunt them all with the 420gr Punch bullet.

Winchester fixed the powder problem. The result was a load 150 feet per second less then the original .458. Winchester can't fix it, but you can? Game control was done with what was available at the time. We've got better today. Improve the .450NE? It's what 120 years old? Thats the gold standard?

The .458 was Winchester's attempt to duplicate the .450NE in a standard long action boltgun. The .450 is a double rifle cartridge with a big rim and as such, they can be as long as you want. More challenging task to stuff it into a .30-06 length action. The .416 and .450Rigby was the same sort of adaptation, except they used the magnum length Mauser action.

All of this on the pretense that adding a couple hundred feet per second is going to make a significant difference, like it's gonna make a good cartridge a great one. It doesn't. There's a reason why all the good dangerous game rifle cartridges don't run around 2100-2400fps. It's the bullet that makes all the difference. Thankfully the Africa crowd is finally coming around to flat nosed solids. Discovering what handgun hunters figured out decades ago, that they actually penetrate better and straighter than round nose.

 

[midland man]

so what about the 450 bushmaster guys??

 

[salt&battery]

AND, the wrong cartridge. Who would shoot a rhino with a 45-70?

Was he/she trying to prove a point?

I thought the professional guides in Africa would have nixed that crap.

Brian Pearson shot thru two cape buffaloes with a 45/70 I think 400 grain hardcast bullets at 1600 FPS

 

[loneviking]

Why is it popular? Because it can be fired out of a compact rifle like the Marlin Guide Gun and makes very dangerous critters very quickly dead, dead, dead!

 

[Robert]

I'd say we've beaten this one more than enough.