.38 Short Colt

[Mr_Flintstone]

I'm going to ask a question that may sound absurd on the surface, but bear with me.

Are there situations where .38 Short Colt is a viable self defense round?

I know that it is by far less powerful than .38 special or even .380 acp, but what about the smaller calibers? There are a ton of people out there that, for one reason or another, carry .22 LR or .22 magnum revolvers or small semiauto 32 acp pistols, or even .32 S&W long. Maybe it's because of the ease of concealment, but I believe it may also be because of the relatively quiet and low recoil ammunition. All of these calibers are what I'll call "less than ideal", but they are carried by a great number of people. Many will say "why carry a smaller caliber handgun that is the same size and weight as a larger caliber?" I say that for a great many, it is for the very reason I stated above.

At any rate, I shoot a lot of .38 Short Colt just for practice. It has almost no recoil, even in a lightweight 2" revolver. It also has a very low report; more like a "pop" than a bang. My wife likes to shoot them just because of this very reason. I guess it's less intimidating. Nevertheless, out of a 2" revolver, factory Remington 125 gr LRN .38 SC is going 670 fps with 125 ft-lbs energy. For comparison a .22 LR snubbie has only 64-72 ft-lbs, .22 magnum has 81 ft-lbs, and a .32 acp pistol with a 3' barrel has about 110. 38 Short Colt factory lead will also penetrate about 7 inches in ballistics gel. Definitely less than ideal, but at close range I can see where it can be fairly effective. And because of the depth, all of its energy will be used up inside rather than passing through. All sharp stick and pocket full of rocks jokes aside; if, for whatever reason, all you are willing to carry is a minimal recoil and low report handgun, I believe that .38 Short Colt is at least as effective as any of the options listed above, and will leave a bigger hole.

 

[Wisco]

I don't feel undergunned with a .32ACP, which is very ballistically similar to a 380. Sometimes it's literally the only gun I can conceal with what I'm wearing.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Shot some in a 6" GP100 once.

Zero recoil. My Mk IV has more kick.

 

[kBob]

Ballistic gel aside......I would be concerned that a bullet of that weight and going that slow and with that much cross sectional area simply would not penetrate enough to do the job in the real world of clothing and flesh with bones in it.

On the other hand a lot of folks (sometimes even me) carry stuff like the Beretta M21A which only turns up 710-740 fps with 40 grain RN .22 LR bullets. I had a very close friend that carried a little Beretta 950 in .22 Short for a couple of years and he suffered mightily from folks that found out and had to harass him about it not having enough power.......yet it did go everywhere with him occasionally even in a bathing suit.

I do not understand your situation fully though. Are you carrying some sort of antique revolver? Do you merely load the .38 Colt in a modern .38 Special or .357? If you are using a modern revolver, why not practice, practice and practice with the Little Colt ammo and then carry at least a 60 percent stopper .38 Special load?

I know, I know, "shoot what you carry" but I assure you I do not carry Speer plastic training ammo such as I sometimes use in training and never carry a revolver loaded with just a laser which I have also used for training. The colt Short may well allow you and your wife a lot more practice and training than most folks ever get AND if either of you carries some sort of high priced non PlusP defensive ammo that the gun is marked to use for self defense I doubt you will note the difference at all if you ever really have to use it as there will be issues other than worrying about noise or recoil at that time.

The other thing I wonder about is where you are getting .38 Colt. Are you paying for factory loaded "Cowboy Ammo"? If you are handloading, why not just load a light version of the "normal ammo"? A lot of us have shot .38 Specials loaded all the way down into the upper 400s fps on indoor ranges say with a DEWC and then carried the same bullet loaded to 800 or so in the same snubbie.

-kBob

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Ballistic gel aside......I would be concerned that a bullet of that weight and going that slow and with that much cross sectional area simply would not penetrate enough to do the job in the real world of clothing and flesh with bones in it.

On the other hand a lot of folks (sometimes even me) carry stuff like the Beretta M21A which only turns up 710-740 fps with 40 grain RN .22 LR bullets. I had a very close friend that carried a little Beretta 950 in .22 Short for a couple of years and he suffered mightily from folks that found out and had to harass him about it not having enough power.......yet it did go everywhere with him occasionally even in a bathing suit.

I do not understand your situation fully though. Are you carrying some sort of antique revolver? Do you merely load the .38 Colt in a modern .38 Special or .357? If you are using a modern revolver, why not practice, practice and practice with the Little Colt ammo and then carry at least a 60 percent stopper .38 Special load?

I know, I know, "shoot what you carry" but I assure you I do not carry Speer plastic training ammo such as I sometimes use in training and never carry a revolver loaded with just a laser which I have also used for training. The colt Short may well allow you and your wife a lot more practice and training than most folks ever get AND if either of you carries some sort of high priced non PlusP defensive ammo that the gun is marked to use for self defense I doubt you will note the difference at all if you ever really have to use it as there will be issues other than worrying about noise or recoil at that time.

The other thing I wonder about is where you are getting .38 Colt. Are you paying for factory loaded "Cowboy Ammo"? If you are handloading, why not just load a light version of the "normal ammo"? A lot of us have shot .38 Specials loaded all the way down into the upper 400s fps on indoor ranges say with a DEWC and then carried the same bullet loaded to 800 or so in the same snubbie.

-kBob

It's not what I carry. I carry Remington .38 Special +P SJHP; but that wasn't my point. I know lots of folks who carry tiny mouse guns... 22 LR, 25 ACP, 32 ACP, etc..., and most of them have a 38 special somewhere laying in a drawer. Just thinking out loud, I figured that a 38 Special loaded with Remington Target 38 Short Colt (or the couple other brands out there that's still made) would be a much better option than a .22 LR revolver that's nearly the same size and weight. Twice the kinetic energy, and four times the cross sectional area with the same recoil. The difference becomes a little less when you move toward .32 caliber. I know that these rounds will penetrate pressure treated 2" lumber, so I figure they can't be al bad.

 

[dickydalton]

I don't feel undergunned with a .32ACP, which is very ballistically similar to a 380. Sometimes it's literally the only gun I can conceal with what I'm wearing.

I believe in carrying anything you can but as to them being ballistically similar I want to post an old post that I agree with.
"
"A good comparison would be the Speer Gold Dot in 32 caliber, produces 123 lbs of energy.

The Speer Gold Dot in 380 caliber, produces 196 lbs of energy.

The 380 round weighs in at 90 gr and the 32 round weighs in at 60.

And there is the difference in diamiter too.

IMO that is a significant difference."

kokapelli, Dec 15, 2006

 

[Wisco]

I believe in carrying anything you can but as to them being ballistically similar I want to post an old post that I agree with.
"
"A good comparison would be the Speer Gold Dot in 32 caliber, produces 123 lbs of energy.

The Speer Gold Dot in 380 caliber, produces 196 lbs of energy.

The 380 round weighs in at 90 gr and the 32 round weighs in at 60.

And there is the difference in diamiter too.

IMO that is a significant difference."

kokapelli, Dec 15, 2006

So you're saying they're not ballistically similar based on a comparison of one brand?

That's one bullet type from one maker and those aren't even optimal defense loads for a pocket pistol. No one who knows better runs a lightweight hollowpoint with poor penetration. Penetration is the ONLY thing you have going for you in the mouse guns.

 

[Dr.Rob]

What are you shooting it out of?

 

[Sarge7402]

Similar to the 38 SC is the .38 S&W (not the Special). While the .38 SC takes a .38 Special revolver the .38 S&W has been chambered in numerous pistols from the Colt Police Positive and S&W Regulation Police to the H&R, Iver Johnson and Hopkins and Allen top breaks of the early 20th Century. While only a little bit more powerful than a 38 SC, you can find ammo from at least three manufacturers including Prvi Partizan and Fiocchi for under $20/box. Me? I've got a nice 1930's vintage Regulation Police nickel plated.

 

[Kendahl]

Instead of an oddball like the Short Colt, how about a .38 Special target wadcutter load?

 

[CDW4ME]

Lots of people doing something doesn't make it a good choice, this generalization is applicable outside of guns too.

The goal of a self defense pistol is to stop a potentially lethal threat, ASAP.
A threat that justifies lethal use of force (attacker with a knife) is the same in Small Town USA during the daytime as it is Atlanta or Chicago at night.
I want the same threat stopping potential regardless of light or location.

I'm not comfortable betting my life on a 380 - LCP 380 is easy to conceal and "better than nothing"
If one is limited by work attire, tucked in shirt, dress pants, (non-permissive environment) then 380 may be the "best they can do".

Careful ammo selection may result in a 380 bullet that penetrates 12 inches and expands.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
Sig 90 gr. V-Crown 12.8'' penetration / .51 (At 861 fps this 90 gr. bullet generates a meager 148# KE)

I wouldn't want to bet my life on less than 380 and I am not content with "better than nothing".

Cargo / hiking style pants have pockets that are suitable for something a bit larger than 380 LCP
If I had to tuck in my shirt at work, but casual dress pants were okay and carry not prohibited...
Kahr PM9: Corbon 115 +P JHP @ 1,264 fps / 408# KE
Kahr PM40: 155 gr. Federal Bonded @ 1,086 fps / 406# KE
I have more confidence in either of those options for ASAP incapacitation potential than 380.

Outside of work, dressed as I choose I'll have a Kahr PM9/40 in pocket and something "decent" IWB
Dan Wesson Valor (45 acp 1911)
Federal 230 HST @ 891 fps / 406# KE
Winchester 230 gr. Ranger T @ 915 fps / 428# KE
Remington Golden Saber 185 +P @ 1,157 fps / 550# KE
I have much more confidence in that option for ASAP incapacitation potential than 380

Ask yourself if 22lr, 25 acp, 32 acp, 38 short, is really what you want to bet your life on.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Lots of people doing something doesn't make it a good choice, this generalization is applicable outside of guns too.

The goal of a self defense pistol is to stop a potentially lethal threat, ASAP.
A threat that justifies lethal use of force (attacker with a knife) is the same in Small Town USA during the daytime as it is Atlanta or Chicago at night.
I want the same threat stopping potential regardless of light or location.

I'm not comfortable betting my life on a 380 - LCP 380 is easy to conceal and "better than nothing"
If one is limited by work attire, tucked in shirt, dress pants, (non-permissive environment) then 380 may be the "best they can do".

Careful ammo selection may result in a 380 bullet that penetrates 12 inches and expands.
https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/
Sig 90 gr. V-Crown 12.8'' penetration / .51 (At 861 fps this 90 gr. bullet generates a meager 148# KE)

I wouldn't want to bet my life on less than 380 and I am not content with "better than nothing".

Cargo / hiking style pants have pockets that are suitable for something a bit larger than 380 LCP
If I had to tuck in my shirt at work, but casual dress pants were okay and carry not prohibited...
Kahr PM9: Corbon 115 +P JHP @ 1,264 fps / 408# KE
Kahr PM40: 155 gr. Federal Bonded @ 1,086 fps / 406# KE
I have more confidence in either of those options for ASAP incapacitation potential than 380.

Outside of work, dressed as I choose I'll have a Kahr PM9/40 in pocket and something "decent" IWB
Dan Wesson Valor (45 acp 1911)
Federal 230 HST @ 891 fps / 406# KE
Winchester 230 gr. Ranger T @ 915 fps / 428# KE
Remington Golden Saber 185 +P @ 1,157 fps / 550# KE
I have much more confidence in that option for ASAP incapacitation potential than 380

Ask yourself if 22lr, 25 acp, 32 acp, 38 short, is really what you want to bet your life on.

A simple "no" would have sufficed. I, on the other hand, think three .22s in the chest is more effective than a miss from a .45.

 

[Sunray]

"... is a viable self defense round..." When it's what you have.

 

[If1HitU]

I carry my G42 & S&W BG 380's and never feel that I don't have enough fire power when I carry them loaded with HCD 90gr.FTX bullets. Just my opinion.

 

[CDW4ME]

A simple "no" would have sufficed. I, on the other hand, think three .22s in the chest is more effective than a miss from a .45.

A simple "no" lacks explanation and others may appreciate my logic.

Why is the 45 shooter missing, but the 22 shooter makes hits?
22 shooter concealing a S&W model 41 but the 45 acp shooter has a Bond Arms Mini 45?

Maybe someone shooting one of these can place shots as well as the hypothetical .22 master.
Glock 43: Federal HST 124 +P @ 1,135 fps / 355# KE
Glock 19: Federal HST 124 gr. +P @ 1,210 fps / 403# KE
Glock 23: Federal HST 180 gr. @ 1003 fps / 402# KE
Glock 32: Federal HST 125 gr. @ 1,358 fps / 512# KE

Defending ones-self against an armed attacker, possibly high on drugs, same shot placement...
Think a 22lr or maybe a 38 short is the best concealable choice for stopping attacker ASAP? (I don't).

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

A simple "no" lacks explanation and others may appreciate my logic.

Why is the 45 shooter missing, but the 22 shooter makes hits?
22 shooter concealing a S&W model 41 but the 45 acp shooter has a Bond Arms Mini 45?

Maybe someone shooting one of these can place shots as well as the hypothetical .22 master.
Glock 43: Federal HST 124 +P @ 1,135 fps / 355# KE
Glock 19: Federal HST 124 gr. +P @ 1,210 fps / 403# KE
Glock 23: Federal HST 180 gr. @ 1003 fps / 402# KE
Glock 32: Federal HST 125 gr. @ 1,358 fps / 512# KE

Defending ones-self against an armed attacker, possibly high on drugs, same shot placement...
Think a 22lr or maybe a 38 short is the best concealable choice for stopping attacker ASAP? (I don't).

It's not my intent to start a war of words, but I will address your comments; and no disrespect intended. My OP was a comment about the weak or timid shooter that carries, but lacks either the desire, will, or expertise to carry a large caliber weapon. I personally know 5 or 6 CCDW holders that carry .22LR semis or revolvers.

Now, as to whether they need something bigger with more power... sure they do. But it's not up to me to make those decisions for them. The fact remains, though, that for an unskilled shooter it is much easier to aim, shoot, and make followup shots with a .22 or.38 SC, or some similar pistol simply because of the reduced power. Now, you could make the very correct statement that they need training; which I will not dispute. Odds are, though, that they won't get it. Not meaning to be sexist, think of a late-middle aged woman with very little gun experience that just "wants something just in case". They aren't going to be at the range, or in the back yard shooting during their spare time. Now think of this inexperienced shooter trying to use a .45 acp Colt Commander, or even a micro-polymer 9mm. They kick like a mule if you aren't used to them. That's why I say they are more likely to make contact with a .22 and not a .45. Heck, the first time I shot a .40 S&W I was all over the place, and I'm an experienced shooter.

As to your last statement. Of course I don't think either of those options are the best option. I stated that In my OP. It would be ludicrous to think that a .22 or a .32, or even a .38 Special would be more effective than a .357 magnum. However, in my opinion at least, if all a person is comfortably able to use is a small caliber or light load, then that may be the best fit for that person.

 

[bannockburn]

Kendahl

Instead of an oddball like the Short Colt, how about a .38 Special target wadcutter load?

My thought exactly. If I'm carrying my J frame .38 Special, I'm going to be using .38 Special ammo that I know will get the job done. When I want a nice light practice load I would handload 148 gr. target wadcutters for it but I wouldn't think of it as being a viable self defense round. That's pretty much how I feel about using the .38 Short Colt; great if you have it and you want a low recoil/low report round for practice but not meant for real world concealed carry.

 

[CDW4ME]

Not meaning to be sexist, think of a late-middle aged woman with very little gun experience that just "wants something just in case". They aren't going to be at the range, or in the back yard shooting during their spare time. Now think of this inexperienced shooter trying to use a .45 acp Colt Commander, or even a micro-polymer 9mm. They kick like a mule if you aren't used to them.

I know what you are saying, I'm attempting to offer alternate view.

As I said before, a threat that justifies lethal force (attacker armed with knife) is the same regardless of location, daylight.
"Just in case" implies a lethal force (life/death) situation.
Little experience, armed with "just in case" attempting to stop a violent attack faces the same challenge (threat) as an individual that is better prepared / armed.

My wife, (age 48) has had concealed carry for as long as I have, about 25 years.
She regards practice shooting like I do mowing the yard, its a task she does begrudgingly when prompted.
She is about 5'7 / 150# whereas I'm about 6'1 / 215#
Reasonable assumption would be that she is more likely than me to be targeted for an attack due to being female and smaller. (Generalize that idea to others).
She and I want her to have a weapon that is likely to stop an attack ASAP; 9mm is as much recoil as she is willing to tolerate and 147 HST +P is a reasonable choice for ASAP potential.
She started out carrying a 38 snub, moved up to a Kahr P9, moved up to a Beretta PX4 Compact.

There are multiple videos of an armed attacker continuing toward police while taking hits from at least 9mm caliber pistols.
Its reasonable to assume an inexperienced/less prepared citizen might face a similarly determined attacker, likely psychotic and/or drugged - why else would they be attacking someone.

Change the scenario in this video to my wife putting groceries in vehicle and someone similar to this guy comes at her with weapon, I'd not want her life riding on less than 9mm. (Generalize to others you know)

 

[entropy]

My OP was a comment about the weak or timid shooter that carries, but lacks either the desire, will, or expertise to carry a large caliber weapon. I personally know 5 or 6 CCDW holders that carry .22LR semis or revolvers.

Perhaps some thought put into why they carry in the first place is in order, at least in the case of timid, and a .22 for CCW is best served by more practice than with a 9 or larger gun, because the effectively targeted areas are so much smaller with a .22.
As has been pointed out in many threads here, a gun is not a magic talisman. Any gun is better than no gun, but only if the user is capable, trained, and willing to use it when necessary.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Perhaps some thought put into why they carry in the first place is in order, at least in the case of timid, and a .22 for CCW is best served by more practice than with a 9 or larger gun, because the effectively targeted areas are so much smaller with a .22.
As has been pointed out in many threads here, a gun is not a magic talisman. Any gun is better than no gun, but only if the user is capable, trained, and willing to use it when necessary.

I agree completely. As a matter of fact, I wrote an article a while back for another forum about why certain people shouldn't carry. The fact remains, though that there's a crap load of people that carry a gun with little to no training. People don't always do what's best for them.

One of the reasons I posted this thread is because of a lady I know from work. She bought a Taurus .38 special a while back to keep in her purse. The thing is, she couldn't shoot it. The combination of using .38 special +P SD rounds in a little gun was more than she could handle, and the standard pressure wasn't much better; so it sat in a drawer. One day we were talking about it, and I told her I had a box of .38 SC reloads that she should try. I went with her, and took my Bersa Thunder 380, Taurus TCP, and a Ruger Mark III w/4-inch barrel. She didn't like the TCP at all. Too much kick for such a little gun. The Thunder 380 was a little better, but still a "no go". She liked the Mark III, but it was too big to keep in a purse. Then the .38 SC. She liked it a lot, and it got her to shooting. She's actually pretty good with small calibers, but refuses anything larger than the Thunder 380; and she doesn't like it. I don't think she'd have any problem sticking either of the small ones in a BG's gut and squeezing the trigger a few times, but won't use a big gun. She could probably handle wad cutters, but I have a hard time finding those in factory loads, and I have legal concerns about using hand loads for carry.

 

[heyjoe]

have her buy a box of commerical 38 sc or 38 sp wadcutter and call it a day. if she carries the 85 or has it loaded in her house with either of these loads she is way ahead of having no gun she can use at all. thats the bottom line. dont forego the good in search of the perfect

 

[Monac]

Mr_Flintstone, could I ask where you are getting 38 Short Colt to shoot? Do you handload it by shortening up 38 Special brass? I have never seen enough of the stuff to be at all familiar with it. Is it loaded for cowboy action shooting now? Also, I had the vague idea that the original 38 Short Colt used a heeled, outside-lubricated bullet. Is that the case with the ammo you shoot?

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Mr_Flintstone, could I ask where you are getting 38 Short Colt to shoot? Do you handload it by shortening up 38 Special brass? I have never seen enough of the stuff to be at all familiar with it. Is it loaded for cowboy action shooting now? Also, I had the vague idea that the original 38 Short Colt used a heeled, outside-lubricated bullet. Is that the case with the ammo you shoot?

I do hand load it, but Remington, Magtech, and a couple others sell it commercially. The new stuff is shortened 38 special.

 

[Monac]

Thanks for your reply, Mr_Flintstone!

About 25-30 years ago, at the big Lake County gun show in Grayslake, Illinois, I bought a box of 38 Special loaded with 100 (one hundred) grain wadcutters. IIRC, the seller had a
small company that selling lightweight cast bullets using an alloy with zinc replacing some of the lead. 100 grains is the standard weight for 32 S&W Long wadcutters, and these 38 Specials seemed to be loaded to the same velocity as 32 Long, so it was like being to shoot 32 Long in your 38 revolver. Accuracy, as far as group size went, was excellent. I no longer remember if they shot to point of aim, and I rather doubt it, given the change in recoil.

I bought a couple more boxes, which were just as good, but I was too complacent about getting more, and there came a time when the seller was no longer there. I have never been able to find similar loads, nor any information about them. I think I inquired here at the High Road when I first came here, but got no answers.

Anyway, those loads were what Mr_Flintstone seems to be looking for, maybe more so. I thought of them only as paper punchers, and I think they would only have been slightly more effective than 32 Long on small game or for self defense.

 

[strambo]

I guess I just can't be bothered to care what people with no training (and no intention of ever getting any) carry or why. I don't care what might be a good choice for them when the best choice for them is to get training and carry an effective gun...but they won't, so I wish them luck with their .22s.