why no love for the HK93?

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jason41987

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everytime i see a topic about military semi automatics, 90% of the time its about the AR15 or AK.. once in a while youll get the FAL or M1A thrown in there.. but i never see anyone talk about the HK93.. why not?

does PTR not make a clone? i notice receiver flats are available for home builders, and the rifle itself in my opinion is a very great design, mechanically very simple, weights really around that of a similarly equipped AK or AR, inexpensive to produce, quite reliable and no gas system

well, really anything that could be said for the HK91 which there seems to be millions of fans of, but for some reason far less for the 93.. is there something inherently wrong with them besides brass destruction?
 
Hard to argue with the products of two superpowers as the result of an arms race and cold war. Everything else is just on the periphery. The HK was to the M16 as the VZ58 was to the AK.
 
Not as many of them around. PTR makes on clone that I know of. There are a few companies that make clones but there not real cheap. The C93 was cheap but not so much anymore. Then there is the cost of mags.

Other then that I would love to have a real 93.

WB
 
Probably because actual HK's are very cost prohibitive. I could buy a new Noveske and an Aimpoint or 2 BCM's for the cost of a used HK.
 
no i dont hatt, but id love to have one.. maybe not as a regular shooter with the price of ammunition and how HK rifles like to crease the brass with its fluted chamber before slamming it against the edge of the ejection port.. but it would still be a nice rifle to have, if not for that one issue id gladly sell my AK, pick up an HK33 parts kit and put together a semi automatic rifle.. i looked at the PTR website and it doesnt look like they have any.. also, i have no idea what their magazines cost.. would be kind of cool if someone made a receiver that took G36 mags
 
Too much HK hate on this board for you to get a large number of good, realistic answers.

I had an HK93A3 for a while. Excellent rifle with an excellent build quality with superb attention to detail. I love HK diopter sights. Very accurate rifle; mine had 1:12 twist rate. The military counterpart, the HK33, was not widely accepted for Military service. Off the top of my head, Malaysia used them for Military issue, and maybe one or two other small countries. As a result, the 33/93 was stifled in development compared to the AR15. Once George Bush Sr. banned their importation, the coffin was sealed.

There are lots of real 93s out there, as well as some clone builds, usually made from Malaysian kits. They are great rifles in their own right, but the AR15 design is much more efficient when 5.56mm rounds are the fodder.

Modularity/Versatility: The HK and AR are equal in this regard, a reality which most aren't aware of. Multiple forend options exist (slim, wide, picatinny, polymer, wood), the grip frame can easily be switched to allow different modes of fire as well as different grips (finger groove, thumb shelf, ambi, even one that accepts AR grips & trigger guards). Lots of stock options exist for the HK as well; A2 style fixed, A3 style collapsible, B&T style folders, and adapters that allow you to use AR receiver extensions and any relevant stock.

Accuracy:
I found the HK93 to be just as accurate as a quality 16" AR with a non-Match barrel. The HK barrels are cold hammer forged and nitrided; this predates that particular AR trend by several decades. The bore on my particular rifle seemed on the tight end. Pushing a .22 cal bore brush through required more force than on any of my other 5.56 rifles.

Parts Availability:
Parts are out there, but they are very expensive. There simply isn't a huge supply of German HK33/93 parts available as there are Mil-Spec AR components. There's Malaysian contract parts, and there's also RCM parts, which I've had great luck with in my MP5.

Mags: Steel HK33/93 mags are what AR mags want to be when they grow up. These mags are as tough as AK mags. There's also aluminum mags and polymer mags. I never tried aluminum, but the polymer MKE mags were very stout. Promag makes some; buyer beware. New in Wrapper German mags are around $70 each. When I bought the MKE mags they were around $20 each. I understand that they have not been available for a while now.

Weight: The 93 is a heavy beast. In its "as imported" for factor, you have a steel receiver and a steel grip frame. The A3 stock is also made from steel. The rifle weighs over 8 lbs. The AR is a featherweight by comparison, unless you've built it as a heavy pig.

Reliability:
The HK roller locked design is very reliable and it runs extremely smooth in 5.56 NATO. I've also shot 91s that had soft recoil, but that is usually an exception rather than the rule.

Cleaning & Maintenance:
The AR is MUCH, MUCH easier and quicker to clean and maintain. The roller-delayed blowback action dumps tons of carbon into the trunion. Cleaning out this carbon buildup can be quite a chore. Taking an industrial approach makes more sense from a financial standpoint; I used a liberal amount of Mineral Spirits to clean the trunion. Simply put, anyone who complains about cleaning an AR obviously has zero HK experience. Despite all the filth, the HKs run and run.

Cost:
2 years ago I had ~$2500 in my HK93A3. This was for an excellent condition shooter, not a collectable safe queen. I see that nowadays they are upwards of $3500 for one that is a shooter in VG+ condition. Just for perspective's sake, you can easily get a top quality AR15 with a high end free float rail, Geiselle trigger, your stock of choice and high end optics (with back up irons) for the cost of the stripped/basic HK93. You could also get two no-frills Mil-Spec quality ARs with Aimpoints/EoTechs.

For me, the AR15 is a much more efficient package for delivering the 5.56 NATO. Parts, mags and knowledge are everywhere. It's all relatively cheap as well. My AR15s have always been extremely reliable and compared to the HK93, they are easy to clean/maintain and they are infinitely more sustainable moving into the future. I traded off my 93 for a Steyr AUG A3 + $500 cash, which went towards an ACOG for the top of it. I've never regretted that swap.

hk93a3-1.jpg

hk93a3-2.jpg

hk93a3-3.jpg

hk93a3-4.jpg

hk93a3-5.jpg

hk93a3-6.jpg
 
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I was starting to reply, but Boriuca's post is pretty thorough.

The HK93 never found a great market in the military or public safety sectors, which might also have colored the mass market's perception of the rifle. Plus, only around 18,000 of the rifles were imported into the US, spread across 15 years (1974-1989) - so there were relatively hard to find, and expensive to acquire relative to other options.

After playing with HKmy 93 clone, I developed an ambivalent attitude about it. It is a neat rifle in and of itself, but AR (and AK) rifles are lighter, more ergonomic (yeah, I called the AK more ergonomic that the HK93 :neener:), less costly, etc...

However, in the configuration below, I'm less ambivalent about the rifle. Conceding that it is a heavy, but highly accurate rifle, I found the config below to be more appropriate (I posted a year or so ago about the rifles questionable accuracy. It turned out to be a questionable user, not the rifle).

IMG_2714.gif
 
I'm a long time real deal owner of a 93 and it is nice and in VG+ or like new condition.

Not $3500 nice as they were alot cheaper in the 70s! I'm tempted to sell it with the box and papers but I swore I would not sell another firearm. I regret sellling all but one firearm I have ever owned.

Yes mags are $70 and I was a clown for not buying more 40 rounders 2 years ago at $25 a pop.

I wanted a collapsable stock until I priced them last year. They really are durable shooters but big bucks now it seems. I would get another if they were cheaper but HK thinks I suck and hates me. Oh, the rifle is more accurate than I am. I would also hate to sit in the jungle and clean the thing.

As for me in the end it is a safe queen now seeing how the price will just go up more. Shame really as it just screams "Take me out and shoot me!".
 
everytime i see a topic about military semi automatics, 90% of the time its about the AR15 or AK.. once in a while youll get the FAL or M1A thrown in there.. but i never see anyone talk about the HK93.. why not?

does PTR not make a clone? i notice receiver flats are available for home builders, and the rifle itself in my opinion is a very great design, mechanically very simple, weights really around that of a similarly equipped AK or AR, inexpensive to produce, quite reliable and no gas system

well, really anything that could be said for the HK91 which there seems to be millions of fans of, but for some reason far less for the 93.. is there something inherently wrong with them besides brass destruction?
Mangled brass from flutes and hitting the top cover, reloading no no
 
On top of that it will rip the rim off a non mil round.
I have not had it happen on the 93 as it has only eaten NATO stuff.
Still it is violent as the HK91 when it operates and I have ripped reloaded commercial rounds with the 91. The 93 recoil is much nicer though.

edit: Ok not the rim but the web part of the round has to be stout. I'm not a reloader but I should still know the cartridge aspects names. I'm drawing a blank here. Geez, it must be about time for me to hang up my guns.
 
I would like to have one, just because they have become so expensive and collectable.

I never wanted one to shoot though back when I could have had one, for several reasons.

*They are heavy!

*They are louder then most rifles, due to the roller-locked action opening right next to your ear, with high residual chamber pressure blowing right out the ejection port.

*The fluted chamber and rough ejection mangles brass for reloading.
If you can even find it?

*Because they throw it into the next county due to the roller-locked premature ejection!


All that is not a factor in a military rifle, as they don't need to reload with the government buying the ammo.

rc
 
Older HK style rifles are a hard sell on a lot of people, they appeal o a certain type of gun enthusiast because the design is somewhat antiquated compared to more modern military style rifles. I consider my HK-93 to be a collectible investment gun and less of a shooter, I train with my AR. The AR has better ergonomics, more reliable (although I've never had an issue with the 93) and it's more accurate and lighter and more handy than the 93.

Vector made an HK-93 clone called the V-93 that was very nice and Century make the C-93 clone which is ok if you get a good one.

Nothing compares to owning the real thing but you are talking a pretty big investment because not a lot of HK-93's were imported so they are pretty collectible.

Mine..
HK93-3.jpg

HK93-4.jpg

HK93-6.jpg
 
I'll be the first to go ahead and say it...

No love for H&K because H&K hates us. They make nice firearms but their prices are absurd (... a comment coming from a guy that owns/owned SIG, Springfield Armory and Colt rifles, mind you.) and all the really good stuff is for LEO/Military contracts only. Then let's off some really silly looking gray plastic goofball version for regular people. No thanks.

As far as the particular rifle in question by the OP... IMHO it is simply a "Gentlemen's CETME/FAL" much like the SIG 556 is a "Gentlemen's AK." No better than the original but definitely more refined.
 
Modularity/Versatility: The HK and AR are equal in this regard, a reality which most aren't aware of. Multiple forend options exist (slim, wide, picatinny, polymer, wood), the grip frame can easily be switched to allow different modes of fire as well as different grips (finger groove, thumb shelf, ambi, even one that accepts AR grips & trigger guards). Lots of stock options exist for the HK as well; A2 style fixed, A3 style collapsible, B&T style folders, and adapters that allow you to use AR receiver extensions and any relevant stock.No, just no. An AR can go from a 10.5" CQB upper to a 18-20" precision upper or anything in between in seconds with 2 pins. Same thing allows caliber changes in seconds. The picatiny rail on modern uppers allows much better mounting of optics and lastly the ergos on an AR are simply better.

Parts Availability: Parts are out there, but they are very expensive. There simply isn't a huge supply of German HK33/93 parts available as there are Mil-Spec AR components. There's Malaysian contract parts, and there's also RCM parts, which I've had great luck with in my MP5. #2 reason for lack of popularity.

Mags: Steel HK33/93 mags are what AR mags want to be when they grow up. These mags are as tough as AK mags. There's also aluminum mags and polymer mags. I never tried aluminum, but the polymer MKE mags were very stout. Promag makes some; buyer beware. New in Wrapper German mags are around $70 each. When I bought the MKE mags they were around $20 each. I understand that they have not been available for a while now. AR mags were designed to be cheap and disposable; and for the most part they are in standard aluminum form . Polymer p-mags and Lancers are every bit the mag MKEs are. I haven't had a MKE 93 mag but their mp5 poly mags are junk.

Weight: The 93 is a heavy beast. In its "as imported" for factor, you have a steel receiver and a steel grip frame. The A3 stock is also made from steel. The rifle weighs over 8 lbs. The AR is a featherweight by comparison, unless you've built it as a heavy pig.Reason #4 for lack of popularity.

Just pointing out the reasons they aren't as popular. I'm not saying I wouldn't own one but just not at the premium prices asked for; even quality clones are expensive. ETA: reason #5 HK - because you suck and we hate you ;)
 
No, just no. An AR can go from a 10.5" CQB upper to a 18-20" precision upper or anything in between in seconds with 2 pins. Same thing allows caliber changes in seconds. The picatiny rail on modern uppers allows much better mounting of optics and lastly the ergos on an AR are simply better.

Since the Ban expired, it has been my experience that people don't swap uppers constantly. Lowers are cheap. Extra uppers become complete rifles in short order. Swapping uppers sounds good on paper, but most folks living in free states simply don't do it. The aftermarket has come a long way in terms of optic mounts for the 90 series HKs. Both B&T and MFI have had great success with picatinny rail mounts with a much lower profile than the old STANAG mounts. Co-witnessing is now possible with these mounts.

In the context of NFA items (you mentioned a 10.5 upper), consider the speed and flexibility of a registered sear or trigger pack versus the tedious setup of a RDIAS or the "this lower only" registered M16.
Polymer p-mags and Lancers are every bit the mag MKEs are. I haven't had a MKE 93 mag but their mp5 poly mags are junk.

Get a translucent MKE 93 mag and beat the crap out of it, then get back to me :)

Reason #5 HK - because you suck and we hate you

It's more accurate to say "because you suck and YOUR GOVERNMENT hates you." HK got screwed by the import ban. On top of that, their exports need to be cleared by the German gov't. Only thing you can really blame HK for is not opening up stateside manufacturing.
 
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I have always wanted an HK93, and FN FNC. Two rifles you don't see much, that are well made, accurate, and just plane different in the land of the AR, and AK. Don't get me wrong, I really like the AR-15, and agree with others that it is the most efficient platform for launching the 5.56, and one of the most ergonomic out there as it can be custom tailored easily for the user. Then there is cost.

Great post boricua9MM, and others. I learned a lot about a great rifle.
 
I love the 93 and have three of them: One solid stock rifle, one collapsing stock rifle, and one of the Century C93 pistols with a collapsing stock as a SBR, and soon to be suppressed.

The Century C93's are fine as shooters and are a bargain in the market. Never mind the Centure reputation for "quality", these are pretty hard to screw up and the several I have handled and the one I own all seem to rival the originals. They ought to, really: Only the receiver is US made and it's not that hard to do a good job of a fold and weld job there.

Hmm... what else:

Pros: 40 round mags, very high reliability, and solid construction.

Cons: Compared to AR-15's, higher recoil, poor ergonomics, and lack of modular flexibility. Heavy, etc... but you knew that already.

The SBR'd pistol (clone of a HK-53) is a hoot to shoot. And for those with 07/SOT friends who make up dealer samples and then let you shoot them, they are stupidly easy to work with. Far more so than the AR platform.


US Navy used HK-33's as sterile weapons in the 60's, and it met with some success in Viet nam with the early SEAL teams who liked the 40 round mags and the reliability in mud and water. This at a time when the other choices were M-14's or the then-problematic early M-16.



Willie

.
 
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How much of the HK in USA cost is prohibitive tariff charges.

I know that at one time it was about 85 percent of the value of the gun on top of the actual value.

In the 1970's for instance HK91s were a bit over $300 Stateside and I could have picked one up for about $170 in 1975 brand new in Germany. The Germans appearently reciprocated on the tariffs ( I understand they had the Tariffs first on firearms actually and the US said "so you want to play that game") American made guns were very expensive in Germany. Something as simple as a Colt Series 70 Mk IV or a six inch S&W 19 drew a crowd at my shooting club.

Even in the early '80s I brought in an HSchmit SA revolver for a knock around and they sold here for about $50 at the time and I paid $20 in Hanau and brought it in as a returning service man.

Though I handled an military HK33 I never got to shoot one. I shot HK 91s a bit and G3 rifles a bit.

I have reloaded ammo from HK91s for use in an SA M-1A successfully then reloaded that. I did toss the occasional HK91 brass for having a bent rim or to ugly an ejection port dent. On the other hand some HK 91s seemed to mangle every piece of brass with the number dinged on the ejection port being the highest factor.

One of the funniest things I ever saw was a French NCO that refused to listen to German and American instructors about the G3 because he had used and HK 91 once. The French were still using the 49/56 rifles which are semi auto only. The French NCO got into a half way decent unsupported prone, reached back and turned the selector and dumped his 8 rounds for familurization fire in 3/4 second with one pull of the trigger, leapt to his feet, hurled down the rifle, and exclaimed loudly that the cursed German rifle was broken.......ah allies.

-kBob
 
This is off topic of the 93 and about the 91.

When you take the HK91 to a range with a covered shooting area with a lot of stations side by side, you will get to meet new people. I know because they were all chasing hot cases from shirts and bras and such. They were kind enough to return my spent brass. I am so glad it was just a 20 round mag! The ejected brass bounced off the concrete wall and off the sheet metal covering some doing THREE bounces before it hit people all down the line.

I was outnumbered and did tell everyone I was sorry and had to let many run through a mag as a token "I'm Sorry". One guy was really mad and said I should go down and replace his target that he messed up because of what I call "The Brass Incident". I looked at him and he had this cold look, I said "your going to shoot me when I get down there, right?" he said after 30 sexonds of silence "No I'll let you pass this time". Out of that we actually went shooting together on his long range property, he was really a good guy.

To this day though I can still see him real quiet with that look in his eye. I also ended dating his sister in law. In the end he did get me back by not warning be of her PMS issues.

Also yeah the welding on the HK 93 is very very nice.
 
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Good story, Fuzzy. I got a chuckle out of that one

But its true! the HK9x ejection will defend your right flank :) Reloaders hate them, while the marks from the barrel flutes is really only cosmetic, its really hard to find the empties unless you are shooting in a large paved area.
 
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