Why no pointy 7.62 Tokarev loads?

[Joe Demko]

I recently purchased a Romanian Tokarev with which I've been very happy. The S&B ammo I've been running through it is loaded with round nose fmj. So is all the surplus ammo I've ever seen. Apparently there are soft-nose loads available.
I'm curious why, when speed and penetration are this round's strong suit, nobody produces cartridges loaded with a pointier bullet. Seems to me that such a load would be a improved WRT the already good penetration and flat trajectory.

 

[zinj]

The round has a maximum loaded length to fit in the magazine, and round nose bullets give the best mass to length ratio. Same reason why 220 grain .30-06 is loaded with a round nose bullet.

 

[rcmodel]

Pointy = Longer bullet for the same weight.

So, it either takes up more room in the case = Less case capacity for velocity.

Or, it takes up more room in the magazine = Won't fit in the magazine anymore.

Not that it couldn't, and probably has been done by reloaders.

But there are some definite trade-offs to consider.

Wolf Gold has a JHP, which would probably make a good SD load.
http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=360976&t=11082005


rcmodel

 

[Jim Watson]

As well as OAL requirements:

Pointy bullets do not penetrate better. Look at the bullet in an elephant rifle cartridge. Look at the actual penetrator insert inside an armor piercing bullet.

At pistol range the ballistic coeficient of a pointed bullet makes no real difference on trajectory.

 

[dstorm1911]

bullets kill by shock not by poking holes, pointy bullets make small clean holes with less tissue disturbance and less hydraulic displacement which means less tissue damage

 

[Elvishead]

dstorm1911

bullets kill by shock not by poking holes, pointy bullets make small clean holes with less tissue disturbance and less hydraulic displacement which means less tissue damage

Is that a fact?

Is that why the US uses a pointy .223?

I heard they tumble upon impact because they are on the edge of being unstable. Maybe this is a myth.

 

[Joe Demko]

bullets kill by shock not by poking holes, pointy bullets make small clean holes with less tissue disturbance and less hydraulic displacement which means less tissue damage

I'm not at all sure that is correct.

 

[jdh]

They use a pointy bullet so it can get through all the hard stuff on the outside to reach the soft stuff in the middle.

 

[Jim Watson]

They use a pointy bullet because it goes farther and flatter.

The spitzer bullet has no advantage but aerodynamics. The ammo and component companies put a lot of work into "premium" bullets to get a spitzer with as good terminal ballistics, either penetration or expansion, as a plain old roundnose.

 

[loop]

The "pointy" .223 has an air pocket right behind the tip so the nose will collapse on contact. That causes highly erratic behavior in the projectile. At the very least it will tumble causing a wound at least as wide as the bullet is long.
Most likely it will cause it to zoom around the body (enter in upper chest and exit near pelvis) and created a very long, but relatively narrow, wound channel.
The 7.62X25 was designed to defeat heavy winter clothing typically worn in the Russian winter. That will consist of a layer of wool underwear, a layer of cotton, a layer of leather or some other wind-breaking material, covered by layers of wool, cotton, possibly leather again and fur.
It not only does that admirably, but it also penetrates Kevlar slickly.
If a round-nosed bullet will do that, why get pointy?

 

[Elvishead]

The next Tokarev Sub? Picture should be self explanatory. This is a Swedish made round the can be put in a 9mm pistol or 9mm sub machine gun by ganging the barrel.

It's called the 6.5X25 CBJ. Do a search, and you'll find a Glock and a Sig converted over to this 2000+FPS (2700+ fps in an 8" barrel) round just changing the barrel and recoil spring.

WWW.GOTAVAPEN.SE

It's similar to a Muzzle loader projectile in concept. The plastic just carries the bullet until it leaves the barrel then dropping the plastic outer carrier leaving at max velocity.

 

[tinygnat219]

The 7.62 Tokarev doesn't need any more penetrative ability. It does just fine the way it is now.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

The "pointy" .223 has an air pocket right behind the tip so the nose will collapse on contact. That causes highly erratic behavior in the projectile. At the very least it will tumble causing a wound at least as wide as the bullet is long.

No it doesn't. You are thinking of the Russian 5.45x39. 5.56 NATO (often referred to as .223) has a solid lead core in the case of 55 grain M-193, or a steel penetrator tip in front of lead core in the case of 62 grain M-855. More recent, limited issue loads like Mk.-262 Mod. 0 or Mod. 1 use an OTM, aka a JHP bullet.

All spitzer shaped bullets have a center of gravity more towards the base than the tip. The will therefore tumble when transitioning from traveling through air into flesh. Depending upon the particular bullet design there will be some variation on how fast it begins to tumble. E.g., the bullets from M-193 Ball will tend to tumble faster than 7.62 M-80 Ball.

 

[Gifted]

Elvishead, they make sabot rounds for the Tokarev too. 5.56 bullet in the 7.62 sabot. The discarding sabot system isn't new, even for pistol rounds.

 

[spiroxlii]

7.62 Tokarev penetrates quite well already. The trade-offs necessary to load it with a pointy bullet wouldn't improve that. I saw a surplus weapons mag recently where they did a test of a TT33 where the reviewer was able to penetrate a steel helmet with 7.62 Tokarev, while a 9mm FMJ fired from the same range created a large dent and was deflected.