Why not a 1911 with no thumb safety?

[ljnowell]

I appreciate the thumb safety on a 1911. When I carry a 1911 I carry it "cocked and locked." It's a very safe and quick to utilize method of carry.

That being said I don't care for thumb safeties on any other carry gun. I carry revolvers, glocks, XDs, and others. The only other gun I carry with a thumb safety is my LC9. I carry it loaded, chambered and with the thumb safety off.

 

[justin22885]

so again, if the 1911 had a firing pin block, would it be safe to simply carry hammer-down with no manual safeties at all?

 

[farscott]

Yes, the gun would be safe to carry if you can safely get the hammer down without a negligent discharge. The hard part is de-cocking the gun. The hammer has to be under your control the entire time, and, as a backup, your thumb should block the firing pin until the hammer passes half-cock. That requires lots of practice and is full of chances for an "oops". It is much easier and safer to engage the safety with the hammer cocked.

If I really did not want to use the 1911 thumb safety lock, I would not carry a 1911 and find a gun with a de-cocker. I can de-cock an S&W revolver with no issues due to the shape of the hammer spur, but many 1911 hammers are no bueno for me for this.

 

[justin22885]

im quite used to shooting revolvers including single actions, i have absolutely no issues cocking a hammer or letting one down.. in fact its become instinctual to cock a hammer while drawing.. havent tried it on a 1911 though

the tokarev TT33 is very similar in design and uses no manual safeties either.. to be honest, i like the TT33 design more with its easy to remove trigger pack

 

[farscott]

It is MUCH easier to de-cock an SA or DA revolver than a 1911, especially with the shorter hammer spurs and the rowel hammers.

 

[rogdigity]

im quite used to shooting revolvers including single actions, i have absolutely no issues cocking a hammer or letting one down.. in fact its become instinctual to cock a hammer while drawing.. havent tried it on a 1911 though

the tokarev TT33 is very similar in design and uses no manual safeties either.. to be honest, i like the TT33 design more with its easy to remove trigger pack

Second this about the tokarevs and their trigger groups

But I do like the idea if the sub 1# trigger break with no manual or trigger safety as mentioned in the original post... I like to live on the edge. And I have 2 feet anyways

 

[moxie]

Justin,

Try cocking a 1911 on the draw. Very very difficult to do safely and quickly. Totally unlike a revolver, particularly single action.

And de-cocking is an iffy process at best.

You are talking about carrying a 1911 in what's called "condition 2." Conditions 1 and 3 are better, safer, options, with condition 1 being preferred. All require training and practice to be effective.

 

[justin22885]

the trigger pack isnt the only thing i prefer about TT33s though, the lack of a grip safety actually allows you to have grip panels that wrap the back and change the contour of the grip as it fits into your hand.. the wrap grips for the TT33 in my opinion make for an ergonomic grip than what most 1911s offer with the pointless grip safety in the way

about cocking a 1911, most 1911s i see have tiny little hammers on them.. i wonder how a 1911 with a bigger, flared spur would handle?

 

[Jim Watson]

A real 1911 HAS "a bigger flared spur" hammer. And a grip safety the width of the hammer.
I know it is the Internet Thing To Do to run down Condition 2 but the original setup is a lot easier to get going from a hammer down start than the current crop of burr hammer + beavertail guns. I don't do it any more but I did for several years and also shot a CZ75 from a hammer down double action start in IDPA SSP. Never had an AD or even got scared. Saw some nervous Safety Officers at IDPA matches, though. Young guys accustomed to Glocks.

Does anybody have a Soviet manual on how they used the Tokarev?
Henry Stebbins wrote: "The Tokarev has neither thumb nor grip safety. Life is cheap in the Soviet Union."

 

[farscott]

Mr. Watson,

I agree that if one has the original wide spur hammer of the 1911, it is much easier to cock and de-cock compared to the hammers that are used with beavertail grip safeties. Unfortunately there are not many guns out there with the original 1911 hammer and grip safety, and there are a lot of guns out there with rowel hammers and beavertail grip safeties.

 

[Nom de Forum]

Paraphrasing JC, it would be the answer to a question not worth asking.

Here is a more factual description of why the 1911 is an outdated design than that by Rosco S. Benson:

Of course the 1911 is an outdated design. It came from an era when weapons were designed to win military contracts, not by being the very best technology to win a fight but by conforming to the often irrational and erroneous opinions of a very small group of men with little outside objective oversight. It came from an era when the tactics of warfare were ridiculously outdated in comparison to the technology of the primary weapons that would win future wars and the weapons training of American soldiers was not only inadequate for proficiency but in many ways obsolete tactically. It came from an era when American soldiers would learn to be far better at keeping there weapons parade ground inspection clean than to use them to efficiently destroy an enemy. It came from an era when the American army was poorly trained, small numbered, and armed with so very few modern weapons of the type that would win future wars that it was only the protection of the Atlantic and Pacific oceans that protected America from domination by a European power and would require massive amounts of military training and armament from Britain and France prior to it becoming an effective fighting force in World War One. It was an era when weapon procurement for the American Military was even more rife with political corruption and deal making than that of today. Yes, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the 1911 IS an outdated design..... and the exact reason for its continued use is as much about nostalgic love of its mythology than the reality of its capabilities in the past or present.

 

[tipoc]

There is a good deal wrong with the above statement but it would draw things well off track to address them. So back to the regularly scheduled program.

The only safety on the Tokarev (beyond the firing pin safety) was the half cock notch. It was intended that the gun could be carried on that notch and so the cocking and decocking of the hammer was conceivably a bit easier. The hammer was small by American standards. It was rather buried in the slide in a way that didn't help reliable cocking in my opinion, but more actual experience with it could change my mind.

The trigger pull was heavy and on the ones I've handled rough and creepy. But these were either on imported guns or WWII productions guns made under difficult conditions. The pre-war Soviet guns would provide better samples.

Most of the imported TT-33s and clones we see here have safeties of one type or another installed so as meet import requirements. So you'd have to bypass those to get a sense of the operation, day to day, of the actual piece.

Worth noting perhaps that the Tok was replaced by a da/sa Makarov with a slide mounted safety.

tipoc

 

[Nom de Forum]

There is a good deal wrong with the above statement but it would draw things well off track to address them. So back to the regularly scheduled program.

Really? Just what is the "good deal wrong" with the statement I made? Are you claiming I am in error about designers designing pistols as told to do so in an attempt to win contracts? Are aware that the 1911 had win a competition against other designs that was judged by a small group of men? Are you claiming that I am in error that the American Army was a small, poorly armed and trained organization? In comparison to the major powers in 1911 it was pitiful. Are you claiming that in comparison to today the weapons procurement process of 1911 was free of political and military manipulation for reasons that did nothing to promote getting the best weapon at the best price? Unless you can back-up with facts your assertion that what I posted is in error you are no more credible than any other drinker of M1911 Kool-Aid.

The only safety on the Tokarev (beyond the firing pin safety) was the half cock notch.

The Tokarev does not have a firing pin safety. Neither does the M1911. That alone makes both pistols outdated.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Not...as so many insist...because Browning designed it to be carried cocked and locked.

Well . . . the whole idea behind having a thumb safety lock so you can lock the gun and drop it in the holster is that you can carry it cocked-and-locked.

As you say, that's what you do when you have a cocked and loaded M1911 and a fractious horse to control.

 

[Delford]

I don't own a 1911 but have shot several and don't dislike them. My purchase of a P345 5 years ago has been followed by a lot of practice and I use the safety to de-cock and when holstering at the farm/range. When I first touch the gun I release the safety, whether to pull from the holster or to move it bedside from the safe. I like the DA and both it and the safety make me conscious of what I need to do and practice for it. My Kahr PM45 is DA and "revolver like" as post 29 said. I can fire it fast but not "double tap". I need more practice with it (both really) to make using it automatic and accurate. I'm confident enough with it that it is my EDC.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Perhaps. But there were many tales of GI's negligently discharging 1911s over the years, too -- and probably after the same level of training as is provided for most LEOs.

In my experience, NDs with the M1911 mostly come from two situations:

The first is in unloading. The proper sequence is 1) drop the magazine 2) rack the slide, and 3) point the gun in a safe direction (usually into a barrel full of sand) and pull the trigger. People would get out of sequence, racking the slide first (and thereby chambering a round) and then dropping the magazine. This kind of accident can happen with any automatic that doesn't have a magazine safety.

The second kind of ND came from erroneously assuming the half-cock notch is a safety. People would chamber around and lower the hammer to half-cock. A blow on the hammer (or dropping the gun) could cause an ND.

 

[1911Tuner]

so again, if the 1911 had a firing pin block, would it be safe to simply carry hammer-down with no manual safeties at all?

Actually, you don't even need a firing pin block. The 1911's inertia firing pin is too short to reach the primer with the hammer full down.

Well . . . the whole idea behind having a thumb safety lock so you can lock the gun and drop it in the holster is that you can carry it cocked-and-locked. As you say, that's what you do when you have a cocked and loaded M1911 and a fractious horse to control.

The implied intent was to temporarily reholster it cocked and locked until the horse settled down...and the pistol redrawn to carry on with the action at hand, and...like all military smallarms...chamber cleared and made safe when the fight was over.

The second kind of ND came from erroneously assuming the half-cock notch is a safety.

John Browning referred to the half cock as the "Safety Position" in the 1910 patents, before the manual slide locking safety was added. So, it was a de facto safety...says so right there in the patents...though the addition of the thumb safety pretty much rendered it a non starter. But, the captive half cock remained until the Series 80 flat quarter cock shelf appeared...and it effectively disables the fire control group by locking the hammer to the sear. Pull the trigger. The sear can't move and the hammer won't fall. If that doesn't meet the criteria for a safety, I'd like to know what does.

 

[tipoc]

The Tokarev does not have a firing pin safety. Neither does the M1911. That alone makes both pistols outdated.

They both do. In the sense that both have firing pins that can only reach the primer when struck by the hammer and that the strength of the firing pin spring is designed to prevent the guns from firing when dropped. Tokarev borrowed this feature from Browning who developed it as a drop safety feature.

So the T30 and T33 and it's variants should have this feature and it works...provided the spring don't get gunked up and the firing pin is made to spec, etc.

tipoc

 

[Gun Master]

No Grip or Thumb Safety

The TT-33 Tokarev and its clones (i.e. Chinese Model 54, etc.) are similar 1911 / Browning designs that have neither of the above safeties.
Those that were imported to the USA had imposed thumb safeties installed to meet import requirements. Some of the imported pistols have had the thumb safety removed.
The TT-33 design has an inherent safety built in, the half cock hammer position.

 

[justin22885]

i would remove the grip safety before the thumb safety to be honest.. a thumb safety you can simply choose not to use it, but that grip safety is always there, if theres a firing pin block with the trigger then it should be safe in the case of a drop anyway and all that safety does at this point is restrict the contour of the grip

heres what im talking about with the TT33 http://www.marschalgrips.com/tt33wr/tt33-wrap-around-wattle-red-checkered-1.jpg

id remove the grip safety so grips like that could be used on the 1911.. removing the thumb safety doesnt really give you anythnig back, doesnt so anything for you by removing it

 

[1911Tuner]

The TT-33 design has an inherent safety built in, the half cock hammer position.

A captive half cock has served as a safety on many weapons. The Model 92 and 94 Winchester carbines and the Model 97 shotgun to name three. You'll find it on Sharps, 1873 Springfields and 1863 Remington "Zouave" rifled muskets.

 

[Nom de Forum]

They both do. In the sense that both have firing pins that can only reach the primer when struck by the hammer and that the strength of the firing pin spring is designed to prevent the guns from firing when dropped. Tokarev borrowed this feature from Browning who developed it as a drop safety feature.

So the T30 and T33 and it's variants should have this feature and it works...provided the spring don't get gunked up and the firing pin is made to spec, etc.

tipoc

No they do not. A firing pin safety blocks the firing pin from moving until the trigger is pulled. An inertia firing pin that has a spring is a safety feature not a safety that prevents movement of the firing pin. Neither the M1911 or Tokarev are drop safe because they do not have a firing pin safety.

Still waiting for you to get back to me pointing out where I am in error in my post #61.

 

[TestPilot]

Comparison to TT-33 just a waste of time.

It was developed and fielded by a country with people whose only concern regarding guns is that it fires a bullet and does it reliably.

How "safe" it is during a civilian carrying or drawing it was not their concern.

 

[justin22885]

i view the TT33 as a better weapon, simple, reliable, doesnt pander to recipients of the darwinism award with an excess of useless manual safeties.. a single action weapon shouldnt need three safeties to be made safe and i seriously doubt you have to worry about someone in the military dropping one off their unruly horse either

if the TT33 had even a small fraction of the aftermarket attention the 1911 has had it would be a great firearm by todays standard, its no less outdated than a 1911 and the only reason a 1911 isnt generally considered to be outdated is because of the plethora of parts and modifications available to bring them up to more modern standards

 

[tipoc]

An inertia firing pin that has a spring is a safety feature not a safety that prevents movement of the firing pin

That's correct but it was designed as a safety feature. You see the Tokarev as deployed by the USSR had two safety features. The inertial firing pin safety as I described and the half cock feature. This is simply a fact. It is incorrect to say that the Tok had no safety features.

But it's true that they had no grip safety, thumb safety or decocker. They may have been alone in that.

It's also the case that many countries in the first decades of the last century, when confronted by the question of how to make the gun safe during interruptions of firing, chose different paths to solve the same problem. The Swiss Luger chose both a grip safety and a thumb safety. The German version of the same gun did away with the grip safety but kept a thumb operated safety. The 1911 we know about and the BHP took a thumb safety. The Radom went with a de-cocker. The early Beretta's had external thumb safeties as did most of the early Spanish guns. The Mauser 96 had external safeties. etc., etc.

So when confronted by a particular problem the USSR chose to leave the handgun without an external safety and leave that to the untrained mass of shooters. They had safeties on their rifles (as did everyone else) but went a different way with the Tok. When they had a chance to review the issue again...they went with the Makarov. Maybe that tells folks something.

tipoc