Maverick223
Member
Nothing, they can be just as accurate and they help hold up your pants to boot.
Why Not the 7mm?
- Thread starter Welding Rod
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atblis
Member
Given the choice between having a belt and not a having belt, you'd actually prefer having the belt (other things being equal of course)?
Erik M
Member
My brother has a Remington model 710 in 7mm and loves the power it has. He has it in his head that a Model 700 SPS in .308 will shoot tighter groups past 100 yards so he has one on layaway at the loacl shop as a Christmas present. I have no knowledge on the subject so I dont argue with him The more guns we own the better.
I cant think of any negatives that 7mm has, except other than bull Elk its overkill for most game in my region.
The more guns we own the better. I cant think of any negatives that 7mm has, except other than bull Elk its overkill for most game in my region.
Redneck with a 40
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I haven't shot a 7mm mag, but I have fired a 30-06, its borderline for me on recoil. I do own a .308 and its my favorite, 10% less recoil than the 30-06, very accurate, and capable of taking any North American big game, short of a grizz or brownie. I use my rifle for target shooting anyway, 300 yards, .308 is great for this.
Maverick223
Member
I couldn't care less (and use both belted and non-belted cartridges), I would be much more concerned about whether I had a good supply of brass, good selection of bullets, and good ballistics than whether or not it has a belt. It doesn't affect accuracy and if it affects reloading I haven't been able to discern a difference (but I only neck size all but my semi loads).
It is not much above the '06, and can be slightly less (or so it seems) than an '06 with hot handloads, of course the rifle also generally weighs a bit more so that contributes to the moderate recoil. It is quite a bit less than the .300WM though.
It is not much above the '06, and can be slightly less (or so it seems) than an '06 with hot handloads, of course the rifle also generally weighs a bit more so that contributes to the moderate recoil. It is quite a bit less than the .300WM though.
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.30-06...150 grain Nosler B-Tip 2885 feet a second ....2800 ft lbs. ( 24 inch Bartlein barrel , rem 700 action)
7mm mag 150 grain Sierra.........3100 plus out of the 24 inch , now 3215 fps out of a Shilen 26 inch ( 77 grains H870) 3200 ft lbs plus out of the 24 barrel ( Model 70 XTR action)
A bit more recoil than .30-06 but guess which has more drop at extended ranges? And the difference in recoil ( perceptually )speakingis sort of like the difference between being pushed forcefully and being rapped in the shoulder.........simplistically stated.
And the .308 isn't even remotely in the same league ballistically , the -06 carries one solitary benefit , that of being able to use a heavier slug , but velocity degradation and drop factors negate that advantage for long range shooting. Keep in mind that to get the most out of 7mm mag you want a 26 inch on it.
The above example comes from two rifles I owned , guess which one is still with me? Don't get me wrong here I *do* like .30-06 , but 7mm mag has done more for me more reliably and efficiently over the years.
I also shoot .338 mag , though I may be going to a .375 rum for far north work , and for me .338 Lapua doesn't offer enough advantage over .338 mag to be worth the switch.
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.30-06...150 grain Nosler B-Tip 2885 feet a second ....2800 ft lbs. ( 24 inch Bartlein barrel , rem 700 action)
7mm mag 150 grain Sierra.........3100 plus out of the 24 inch , now 3215 fps out of a Shilen 26 inch ( 77 grains H870) 3200 ft lbs plus out of the 24 barrel ( Model 70 XTR action)
A bit more recoil than .30-06 but guess which has more drop at extended ranges? And the difference in recoil ( perceptually )speakingis sort of like the difference between being pushed forcefully and being rapped in the shoulder.........simplistically stated.
And the .308 isn't even remotely in the same league ballistically , the -06 carries one solitary benefit , that of being able to use a heavier slug , but velocity degradation and drop factors negate that advantage for long range shooting. Keep in mind that to get the most out of 7mm mag you want a 26 inch on it.
The above example comes from two rifles I owned , guess which one is still with me? Don't get me wrong here I *do* like .30-06 , but 7mm mag has done more for me more reliably and efficiently over the years.
I also shoot .338 mag , though I may be going to a .375 rum for far north work , and for me .338 Lapua doesn't offer enough advantage over .338 mag to be worth the switch.
For my two bits what you are missing is with a heavy long range slug they dont do as well as your basic .308 or 30-06 or dont exceed what they can do by enought to worry about all the odd guns they come in. Plus they kick harder pushing the same weight slug as a 06 at about the same speed too.
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You're in drastic error. .308 and -06 don't even come close to pushing the same weight slug as fast as 7mm mag. Argue if you wish but I've owned all three and handloaded for them and chronographed them.
And 'odd guns'? What's that about? Hows a Model 70 ,a Savage a Rem 700 any odder when chambered for 7mm mag than it is in .308 or -06?
B.
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You're in drastic error. .308 and -06 don't even come close to pushing the same weight slug as fast as 7mm mag. Argue if you wish but I've owned all three and handloaded for them and chronographed them.
And 'odd guns'? What's that about? Hows a Model 70 ,a Savage a Rem 700 any odder when chambered for 7mm mag than it is in .308 or -06?
B.
Maverick223
Member
Both are fairly quick recoiling (at least to me), but both are easily manageable IMO. Also I don't know why you are comparing energy and velocity, because neither directly correlate with the recoil (there are several other important factors, primarily weight of firearm, weight of projectile, powder charge, muzzle devices, stock design, et cetera), and after checking the numbers the .30-06 can have greater recoil than the 7mmRM depending upon loading (with no atypical loadings).
Hammerhead6814
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Because we have the .308 Winchester and .30-06. The Perfection and the Pinnacle (respectively) of .30 caliber cartridges.
Anyone who says otherwise needs to talk to Vietnamese and Afgan survivors for the M14, and German survivors of the M1 Garand. Oh wait, they're aren't any.
Anyone who says otherwise needs to talk to Vietnamese and Afgan survivors for the M14, and German survivors of the M1 Garand. Oh wait, they're aren't any.
Both are fairly quick recoiling (at least to me), but both are easily manageable IMO. Also I don't know why you are comparing energy and velocity, because neither directly correlate with the recoil (there are several other important factors, primarily weight of firearm, weight of projectile, powder charge, muzzle devices, stock design, et cetera), and after checking the numbers the .30-06 can have greater recoil than the 7mmRM depending upon loading (with no atypical loadings).
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Because given the same weight in the rifles more velocity and muzzle energy will in the general sense equate to more recoil at the opposite end of the rifle.
These discussions are rather amusing in that folks will surface within them whom will vociferously defend a given caliber as the 'be all end all' , when of course there is no such animal.
It's the old 'horses for courses' factor , for *me* 7mm mag has performed better over the decades than .30-06 and certainly better than .308 , shooting flatter and performing better at longer ranges.
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Because given the same weight in the rifles more velocity and muzzle energy will in the general sense equate to more recoil at the opposite end of the rifle.
These discussions are rather amusing in that folks will surface within them whom will vociferously defend a given caliber as the 'be all end all' , when of course there is no such animal.
It's the old 'horses for courses' factor , for *me* 7mm mag has performed better over the decades than .30-06 and certainly better than .308 , shooting flatter and performing better at longer ranges.
Because we have the .308 Winchester and .30-06. The Perfection and the Pinnacle (respectively) of .30 caliber cartridges.
Anyone who says otherwise needs to talk to Vietnamese and Afgan survivors for the M14, and German survivors of the M1 Garand. Oh wait, they're aren't any.
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Complete and total strawman arguement , there are plenty of survivors in all those cases. And in each of those cases it would have much to do with the basic fact that they were the standardised military calibers.
Anyone who says otherwise needs to talk to Vietnamese and Afgan survivors for the M14, and German survivors of the M1 Garand. Oh wait, they're aren't any.
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Complete and total strawman arguement , there are plenty of survivors in all those cases. And in each of those cases it would have much to do with the basic fact that they were the standardised military calibers.
Probably the most accurate out of the box rifle I've ever seen is my A-Blot stalker in 7mmWSM. I wouldn't think it either since its a pencil barrel lightweight rifle. Great hunting round. Nearly duplicate 7 rem mag with the 140 and 150 grain bullets and with a handy short action rifle. In my experience with it I'm not sure why this round hasn't gained more popularity.
Uncle Mike
Member
Tell us why this round(7mmWSM) is so good....please.
What does the 7WSM offer over, say the 7mm REM.MAG. .....? Advantages....?
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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You're not missing anything, and the answer is inertia that the .308 has.
6.5mm and 7mm rounds, with the available bullets, are clearly superior to .30 cals for looooong distances (short of going with a round that beats the hell out of you and burns your barrel up). Tactical / long-range rifles should all be in .260 Rem, not .308 win. No question about it. With a 6.5-284, 6.5creedmore, 7mm-08, etc., thrown in here and there for good measure.
Knocks on the 7mm rem mags are belt bulge, high recoil/powder expense, and lack of outstanding brass (IINM). But it's still a very good long range round for most people.
But inertia is what keeps the .308 win at the top for long range.
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Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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Uncle Mike, only thing I can think of is belt bulge.
Grey Morel
Member
The only problem with 7mmRM for long distance is factory ammo. There is no "match ammo" for this caliber. That means rolling your own.
The Secret Service, during the time they employed it, used Hunting Shack (HSM) factory ammunition with good results. This load is not too common, but it is available if you look around.
Mel, over at Sniper Central, has a good writeup on the 7mmRM for long distance shooting.
The Secret Service, during the time they employed it, used Hunting Shack (HSM) factory ammunition with good results. This load is not too common, but it is available if you look around.
Mel, over at Sniper Central, has a good writeup on the 7mmRM for long distance shooting.
Uncle Mike
Member
There is no replacement for displacement! Thin may be in...but fat's were it's at!
The weight of the projectile wins, between the two.
Again...I say!
Agreed Tad, it's not so much some extraordinary amount of accuracy achieved at distance, but what can be accomplished once the projectile reaches there.
Tests in the 50's clearly showed that the 6mm and 7mm diameter projectiles were superior to the 30's as for long distance accuracy, but these projectiles did not have the a$$, if you will, inertia, momentum to get the job done once they arrived on target, as far as what the military was after.
With all the momentous hype over ballistic coefficient now days it's a wonder we all don't shoot anything but the 6.5's.
The weight of the projectile wins, between the two.
Again...I say!
Agreed Tad, it's not so much some extraordinary amount of accuracy achieved at distance, but what can be accomplished once the projectile reaches there.
Tests in the 50's clearly showed that the 6mm and 7mm diameter projectiles were superior to the 30's as for long distance accuracy, but these projectiles did not have the a$$, if you will, inertia, momentum to get the job done once they arrived on target, as far as what the military was after.
With all the momentous hype over ballistic coefficient now days it's a wonder we all don't shoot anything but the 6.5's.
Franco
Member
In the "for what it's worth department," I have a Ruger M77 7mm mag with a Leupold 3-9 sighted in at 200yds (probably the longest shot necessary as I hunt in W PA). It's very accurate and deadly but the recoil is pretty uncomfortable so I don't shoot it much any more.
Uncle Mike
Member
I have that same problem...belt bulge!
Oh yes, the dreaded belted cartridge, while belt bulge may effect the serious reloader/ competition shooter, the average woods hunter wont suffer from it.
Still there is something about head spacing off the shoulder I prefer better than the same off of the belt.
The point I was trying to extract is that, the only advantage the 7WSM or the 7SAUM has over the 7mmREM.MAG. is that they head space off the shoulder rather than the belt.
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atblis
Member
This thread is not about Joe Bob deer slayer. Go read the original question.
Uncle Mike
Member
your right...I was in too big a hurry, that post was for the 'other' 7mm question.
Thank you, your a kind feller'.
Thank you, your a kind feller'.
USSR
Member
+1. I have shot in 1,000 yard competition for the past 7 years now, and I can honestly say, I have never seen someone come to the line with a belted magnum. Also, 7mm and .30 caliber rifles (other than the .308, which has it's own special class, and the occasional .284 Win.) are rarely seen. The long range competion field consists almost entirely of 6mm and 6.5mm rifles. Hey, why beat yourself up when you can shoot flatter with less recoil.
Don
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