Why Not the 7mm?

[Maverick223]

Because given the same weight in the rifles more velocity and muzzle energy will in the general sense equate to more recoil at the opposite end of the rifle.

These discussions are rather amusing in that folks will surface within them whom will vociferously defend a given caliber as the 'be all end all' , when of course there is no such animal.

As I mentioned earlier, you are assuming that a lot of factors are equal (firearm, projectile, and powder charge weights as well as the stock design)...so I tell ye again they are darn close in the average rifle. Also, I am not defending the .30-06, just using it for comparison as someone inquired about recoil and mentioned the '06. I believe the 7mmRM holds a pretty good advantage when used for long range paper or social work.That said, I don't find any magnum necessary for 95% of hunting in NA, the added cost comes with little or no added benefit, and the 7mmRM only fits 1% of the remainder because practically speaking the only advantage over a .30-06 or .280 is additional range.

 

[cfendley]

Tell us why this round(7mmWSM) is so good....please.

What does the 7WSM offer over, say the 7mm REM.MAG. .....? Advantages....?

It's in a short action, handy rifle and many claim more ridged short actions tend to be more accurate although that's not one of my reasons. I get the same velocity from 140 grain bullets with less powder so it's more efficient to shoot.

 

[Welding Rod]

+1. I have shot in 1,000 yard competition for the past 7 years now, and I can honestly say, I have never seen someone come to the line with a belted magnum. Also, 7mm and .30 caliber rifles (other than the .308, which has it's own special class, and the occasional .284 Win.) are rarely seen. The long range competion field consists almost entirely of 6mm and 6.5mm rifles. Hey, why beat yourself up when you can shoot flatter with less recoil.

Don

May be true but please keep in mind my question was regarding rifles intended for anti-personnel use, not target shooting (or game animals).

 

[Jim Watson]

A belt does not make it hit harder, either. The belted magnums are still serviceable and selling well to hunters, but they are on the way out as new kit for either target shooters or mankillers, as witness the .338 Lapua and .408 Chey-Tac.

I have reliable reports of 7mm use in Long Range shooting, I believe the current F-class champion shoots one on the WSM case.

 

[jbech123]

With all the momentous hype over ballistic coefficient now days it's a wonder we all don't shoot anything but the 6.5's

Most serious long range shooters these days do actually shoot 6 or 6.5....
With all the gimmicks and such in the shooting world that are hype, BC's are actually scientific fact.

 

[USSR]

May be true but please keep in mind my question was regarding rifles intended for anti-personnel use...

Okay, since this implies military or LE use, the .308 pretty much stands alone with 50+ years of ballistics data behind it.

Don

 

[Maverick223]

I have reliable reports of 7mm use in Long Range shooting, I believe the current F-class champion shoots one on the WSM case.

I am pretty certain that you are correct and it was earlier this year.

 

[Bluenote]

As I mentioned earlier, you are assuming that a lot of factors are equal (firearm, projectile, and powder charge weights as well as the stock design)...so I tell ye again they are darn close in the average rifle. Also, I am not defending the .30-06, just using it for comparison as someone inquired about recoil and mentioned the '06. I believe the 7mmRM holds a pretty good advantage when used for long range paper or social work.That said, I don't find any magnum necessary for 95% of hunting in NA, the added cost comes with little or no added benefit, and the 7mmRM only fits 1% of the remainder because practically speaking the only advantage over a .30-06 or .280 is additional range.

****************************************************


I *never* assume anything as regards firearms. And I personally find a very minor difference in recoil between the two calibers. In addition and over a period of several decades 7mm mag has consistently performed better for me at extended ranges on a wide variety of game animals , some of them notably tough animals than has .30-06 or .308. YMMV in this factor. And I'm admittedly a bit of an oddball about rifles and calibers , but two calibers I consistently keep around are 7mm mag and .257 roberts.

Others come and go , though I very seldom sell off dies for any caliber , still have my dies and a slew of cases for .220 swift though I haven't owned one in years ( as an example).

And in the last analysis the majority of quality bolt rifles are more capable than the majority of shooters anyway.

And I freely admit that should I run across the right -06 I'd be highly likely to purchase yet another one ,.308 not so much , though I was very close to being seduced recently at a gun show by a really sweet VCorp in .308.

Two that will stay forever and likely be inherited by my kids will be my much loved Shilen barreled Sako 75 in .257 roberts and the Model 70 ( xtr) based 7mm mag ( Jewell trigger ,Shilen 26 in etc.etc.).

It looks like I'll be moving back to the Far North , both those will go with me , as will the ancient 336 Marlin in .30-30 that I've had for 35 plus years , the Panda actioned 6 br is gone , the big bores (.338 mag and .45-70) will be gone soon in favor of a .375 rum and the .243s and the .257 mag will be gone soon.

I can only pack so many in and feed them in a bush environment , and insofar as it goes I know a couple of guys up there who have gotten along for better than two decades with an Enfield in .303 british ( wouldn't be my choice but he does fine with it) and a another guy who has gotten along with a .22 lr Ruger semi auto pistol and a .375 H and H.

The auto pistols will get sold off too , will keep the .357 mag Security Six I've had for thirty years and both Redhawks ( 7.5 and custom 3.25) , shotguns will be limited to an ancient Fox double in 20 and a Mossberg 500 with 18.5 , 20 inch slug barrel and a 26 modified.

 

[Bluenote]

Okay, since this implies military or LE use, the .308 pretty much stands alone with 50+ years of ballistics data behind it.

Don
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This too is a strawman arguement , there are a wide variety of calibers that the same can be said about.

Hell .45-70 has better than twice the time period of 'ballistics data' behind it and once upon a time was a 'military caliber' , this is not to say that it's superior for the stated purpose.

 

[Casefull]

I hunted elk and deer for years with a 7 mag. It is a rem 700 and incredible accurate. Then I got the itch for a custom rifle. I had one built on a rem action in 300 wm. I suppose for the same reason I got the 7 mag over a 30 06. They are all more than is needed to take large game. The 7 mag is not as efficient with powder because of the small bore.

 

[USSR]

Hell .45-70 has better than twice the time period of 'ballistics data' behind it and once upon a time was a 'military caliber'...

The key word is "was". When you are talking about military or LE use, you don't use what used to be the norm, you use the current flavor.

Don

 

[Bluenote]

The key word is "was". When you are talking about military or LE use, you don't use what used to be the norm, you use the current flavor.

Don
*********************

No , the KEY point is that making the claim that a given caliber carries more validity than another caliber because " there's X amount of years of ballistics data behind it" is a strawman arguement. And quite frankly we AREN'T talking about 'military use' , we're talking about useage in civilian hands , which of course does not leave us to the arbitrary restrictions suffered by the military.

And within the context of this discussion it comes down to ( as I previously stated) a 'horses for courses' factor , people who think that any one specific caliber or rifle is the 'best at everything' are deluding themselves.

 

[Maverick223]

And quite frankly we AREN'T talking about 'military use' , we're talking about useage in civilian hands , which of course does not leave us to the arbitrary restrictions suffered by the military.

That isn't what the OP said in the opening post, I don't believe that there are many civilians that have a need for an "long-range anti-man/personnel" rifle (SWAT snipers are a very small percentage and typically engage targets from a short-moderate range to ensure a kill with no collateral damage)...so unless the OP directs otherwise we ARE discussing military arms.

 

[blackops]

When the military prefers a round there is going to be more available options for that caliber simple. When these manufacturers are getting millions of dollars for certain calibers from contracts for the military they are going to invest more money into them. The 7mm is a better round, but as far as carry load and amount of powder to push that bullet at a given range the 308 is better and cheaper. Thus the reasoning for all of these options of bullets for the 308. Anyways just my opinion on it.

 

[USSR]

And quite frankly we AREN'T talking about 'military use' , we're talking about useage in civilian hands , which of course does not leave us to the arbitrary restrictions suffered by the military.

Sorry, Bluenote, but if you are talking about civilians shooting people at long range, this is an argument you will have to have without me. Gee, is that another "strawman arguement"? The fact of the matter is, the U.S. military sets the table and LE personnel follow it's lead, and the manufacturers cash in by offering rifles such as my FN SPR to civilians.



And, if you don't like what they offer, do as I did and have your own custom rifle built. Here is my .30-06 Tactical Rifle.

Don

 

[Bluenote]

Sorry, Bluenote, but if you are talking about civilians shooting people at long range, this is an argument you will have to have without me. Gee, is that another "strawman arguement"? The fact of the matter is, the U.S. military sets the table and LE personnel follow it's lead, and the manufacturers cash in by offering rifles such as my FN SPR to civilians.
************


For crying out loud USSR ( and you too Maverick) , the original question was basically 'why no love for the 7mm mag as a long range anti-personell round.' NOT what you refer to in the above , so quite frankly USSR you can ashcan your semi snide rhetoric within the above , because YES it is another 'strawman' , and elitist garbage to boot.

And how is the fact that FN and others offer various tactical rifles to the public even germane to this discussion? Or for that matter the fact that any one of us who is competent can build our own? It proves WHAT exactly?

And what we're all supposed to march in lockstep rank behind YOUR opinions along with military and LE opinion/practice?


Here's what the original question was ( paraphrased) " why isn't the 7mm mag used more as a long range round?" I believe that question has been answered several times , I also believe that it's been highlighted exactly WHY 7mm mag is a better caliber for extended distances , which is a FACT whether some 'caliber elitist' such as yourself wishes to acknowledge it or not , don't bother argueing the point as I've OWNED and loaded for all three and shot them in the field on a variety of game , I'm an old man I don't have time to deal with anything other than realities.

As for the semi-orders on 'what we're discussing' , don't bother ordering me about in an internet forum oriented towards entertaining discussion , you'll just frustrate yourself when I don't follow your orders.

As far as the original point , the reasons .308 is so common have been highlighted ,'Blackops" put it fairly well but missed one corollary point , the availability of various bullet weights in .30 cal has a great deal to do with how many various .30 caliber chamberings there are out there.

As for which is the better long distance from a pure shooting standpoint , 7mm mag is inargueably better , .308 is just the standardised round.

And if someone want to get all buttchapped because I said that , I really don't much care. Like I previously stated I've shot all three and loaded for them , I *like* 7mm and -06 , .308 not so much though I could live with it in the right rifle.

And guess what I *don't* like .223 , now y'all can get all semi nasty and take me to task over that one. It won't change my opinion.

 

[Bluenote]

When looking at many rifles billed as long distance "tactical" shooters it seems 308, 300 win mag, and 338 Lapua are the common offerings and picks.

Why does there seem to be little love for the 7mm Rem Mag for this application?

Am I missing something or isn't it ballistically superior to those three cartridges? And substanstially superior to the first two?

It certainly should have adequate punch for human use at extreme long long distance, roughly doubling the energy of the 308 at 1,000 yards.

All with reasonable recoil.

I can see some picking a 308 for low recoil, long barrel life, ammo availability at a low cost, handy short action, etc in exchange for reach.

But as far as the other two as an anti-man rifle, what am I missing?
********************************************


Well there Mav and USSR , the above is the original post , please point out where it states that it's a ' military only' type discussion? It basically asks why there aren't more 'tactical rifles' available in 7mm mag. I believe that question was answered adequately along with addressing .300 mag and .338 Lapua , is that not true?


And USSR , get used to the basic FACT that you're not the only person in the world to ever build a rifle or buy a 'tactical rifle' , me? I just sold a pretty nice shooter based on a Panda action and chambered in 6br , that tell you anything? And I'm an avid enough varminter that I show up at certain organised varmint shoots with a 'golf bag' and at the last one went through better than 2600 rounds across four calibers in three days ( one guy from WYO showed up with 21 different rifles in 12 different calibers , including a .458 Lott , ever see what a Lott does to a ground squirrel at 400 yards?) at any rate do me a favor and quit talking down to me as if I'm some sort of Walter Mitty or a kid , if you're going to do that then we'll get crossways pretty quick , if you're 'joe moderator' then just let me know and I'll move on and leave you to control the discussion.

 

[waterhouse]

Well there Mav and USSR , the above is the original post , please point out where it states that it's a ' military only' type discussion?

It doesn't state "military only" but it sort of implies it.

What Mav and USSR said, and I tend to agree with them, is (respectively):

That isn't what the OP said in the opening post, I don't believe that there are many civilians that have a need for an "long-range anti-man/personnel" rifle (SWAT snipers are a very small percentage and typically engage targets from a short-moderate range to ensure a kill with no collateral damage)...so unless the OP directs otherwise we ARE discussing military arms.

Sorry, Bluenote, but if you are talking about civilians shooting people at long range, this is an argument you will have to have without me.

The OP specifically is asking about tactical rifle used for long distance "anti man" roles. What civilian applications are you thinking of that involve tactical long range shooting of human beings? I think the lack of a good answer to that implies that we are discussing non-civilian uses of rifles.

ETA:
The OP actually later posted:

May be true but please keep in mind my question was regarding rifles intended for anti-personnel use, not target shooting (or game animals).

I think (OP may correct me if I am wrong) that the question boils down to "Why don't the people who shoot people at long distance for a living choose to use a different (arguably better) round?"

I think the answer was nailed with inertia. This is what USSR was getting at when he said:

Okay, since this implies military or LE use, the .308 pretty much stands alone with 50+ years of ballistics data behind it.

IOW, the gov't would need a really good reason to switch rounds. You took his quote to mean that the .308 had lots of data, and declared it strawman. What he was really saying was that, the reason 7mm hasn't become used by more snipers is that they have been using .308 et al. for decades and changing anything is a huge hassle.

As mentioned, the Secret Service, a relatively small organization, did use rifles in 7mm. For the military to switch would be a pretty big deal in terms of planning and logistics.

Also (and you are free to continue to keep doing it your way if you prefer) if you highlight the text and select the little icon that looks like a cartoon character talking (toward the right side of the top toolbar when you are replying) it will quote the text in a separate box.

 

[USSR]

...it's been highlighted exactly WHY 7mm mag is a better caliber for extended distances , which is a FACT whether some 'caliber elitist' such as yourself wishes to acknowledge it or not , don't bother argueing the point as I've OWNED and loaded for all three and shot them in the field on a variety of game...

Well, I had no idea I was some kind of "caliber elitist", since I own rifles in several calibers, although I must admit, none chambered in the Holy Grail of LR shooting: the 7mm Rem Mag.

...quit talking down to me as if I'm some sort of Walter Mitty or a kid , if you're going to do that then we'll get crossways pretty quick...

Wow, you really got your panties in a wad over this. For a guy with only 57 posts, you really need to take a deep breath if you intend to last long on any forum.

...one guy from WYO showed up with 21 different rifles in 12 different calibers , including a .458 Lott , ever see what a Lott does to a ground squirrel at 400 yards?) at any rate do me a favor and quit talking down to me as if I'm some sort of Walter Mitty or a kid , if you're going to do that then we'll get crossways pretty quick...

I must admit, I have never seen a ground squirrel shot with a .458 Lott. You win.

Don

 

[Bluenote]

Well, I had no idea I was some kind of "caliber elitist", since I own rifles in several calibers, although I must admit, none chambered in the Holy Grail of LR shooting: the 7mm Rem Mag.


Quote:
...quit talking down to me as if I'm some sort of Walter Mitty or a kid , if you're going to do that then we'll get crossways pretty quick...

Wow, you really got your panties in a wad over this. For a guy with only 57 posts, you really need to take a deep breath if you intend to last long on any forum.


Quote:
...one guy from WYO showed up with 21 different rifles in 12 different calibers , including a .458 Lott , ever see what a Lott does to a ground squirrel at 400 yards?) at any rate do me a favor and quit talking down to me as if I'm some sort of Walter Mitty or a kid , if you're going to do that then we'll get crossways pretty quick...

I must admit, I have never seen a ground squirrel shot with a .458 Lott. You win.

******************


Blah ,blah ,blah. You come across as an elitist. In addition you seem to be in the above making a great many assumptions about another individual based upon the thinnest of criteria , such extrapolations are almost always in error. So you might as well save the 'take a deep breath' crap for someone else , I've managed to " last on forums" since the '70s when we were still on individual BBS's and the 'net was still TymNet and Arpanet , thank you very much.

And ' only 57 posts' I'm ROTFLMAO at that one , so now we're supposed to base whether one is allowed to join a discussion on the number of posts they have? How does that work exactly? Since by that reasoning one wouldn't be allowed to join any given discussion of they didn't have a certain amount of posts then how would they accumalate the requisite number of posts to allow participation?

What was that about your elitist attitude again? Tell you what , to dismiss opinion and/or information delivered based on that sort of nebulous criteria is rather shortsighted.

 

[Bluenote]

Well, I had no idea I was some kind of "caliber elitist", since I own rifles in several calibers, although I must admit, none chambered in the Holy Grail of LR shooting: the 7mm Rem Mag.


Quote:
...quit talking down to me as if I'm some sort of Walter Mitty or a kid , if you're going to do that then we'll get crossways pretty quick...

Wow, you really got your panties in a wad over this. For a guy with only 57 posts, you really need to take a deep breath if you intend to last long on any forum.


Quote:
...one guy from WYO showed up with 21 different rifles in 12 different calibers , including a .458 Lott , ever see what a Lott does to a ground squirrel at 400 yards?) at any rate do me a favor and quit talking down to me as if I'm some sort of Walter Mitty or a kid , if you're going to do that then we'll get crossways pretty quick...
It doesn't state "military only" but it sort of implies it.

What Mav and USSR said, and I tend to agree with them, is (respectively):


Quote:
That isn't what the OP said in the opening post, I don't believe that there are many civilians that have a need for an "long-range anti-man/personnel" rifle (SWAT snipers are a very small percentage and typically engage targets from a short-moderate range to ensure a kill with no collateral damage)...so unless the OP directs otherwise we ARE discussing military arms.

Quote:
Sorry, Bluenote, but if you are talking about civilians shooting people at long range, this is an argument you will have to have without me.

The OP specifically is asking about tactical rifle used for long distance "anti man" roles. What civilian applications are you thinking of that involve tactical long range shooting of human beings? I think the lack of a good answer to that implies that we are discussing non-civilian uses of rifles.

ETA:
The OP actually later posted:


Quote:
May be true but please keep in mind my question was regarding rifles intended for anti-personnel use, not target shooting (or game animals).

I think (OP may correct me if I am wrong) that the question boils down to "Why don't the people who shoot people at long distance for a living choose to use a different (arguably better) round?"

I think the answer was nailed with inertia. This is what USSR was getting at when he said:


Quote:
Okay, since this implies military or LE use, the .308 pretty much stands alone with 50+ years of ballistics data behind it.

IOW, the gov't would need a really good reason to switch rounds. You took his quote to mean that the .308 had lots of data, and declared it strawman. What he was really saying was that, the reason 7mm hasn't become used by more snipers is that they have been using .308 et al. for decades and changing anything is a huge hassle.

As mentioned, the Secret Service, a relatively small organization, did use rifles in 7mm. For the military to switch would be a pretty big deal in terms of planning and logistics.

Also (and you are free to continue to keep doing it your way if you prefer) if you highlight the text and select the little icon that looks like a cartoon character talking (toward the right side of the top toolbar when you are replying) it will quote the text in a separate box.
__________________



For cripes sake , where did I ever at any time state anything whatsoever about the military changing calibers? And what the OP asked was why the 7mm mag isn't used for the purpose , I believe that question was covered adequately wasn't it? I merely pointed out that the caliber under discussion works just fine as an extended range caliber , something I know by intimate experience since I've been shooting it for a llloooooonnngg time and handloading for same.

And of course the military isn't going to replace .308 with 7mm , the former already being standardised and chambered for the same round as our NATO allies ( leaving out the discussion of chamber differences between civilian .308 and 7.62 NATO) , now once again point out where I made a statement that the military should do so?

Look here's what it comes to ,I'm an avid shooter across a variety of disciplines , I like to discuss firearms ,in addition I've found that one can learn something of value from most folks , that said I'm also a native Texan , with all the pecadilloes that are attendant to that factor , so when folks start talking 'down' to me and get snide and assumptive then I have an inherent tendency to serve it back to 'em on a plate.

And I've freely admitted my own personal (slight) prejudice in that I don't have a particular affinity for .308 , though as I stated I could be easily seduced by the right rifle chambered in the caliber , and that I actually *like* .30-06. Most folks have calibers they like over other calibers , many folks think I'm crazy for still keeping ,loading for and shooting a .257 Roberts too , so what. It's a case of 'to each their own'.

And y'all missed what I stated as to the 'horses for courses' factor , to elaborate , in a military or LE scenario where standardisation is of quite some value .308 has BECOME the standard in somewhat of a majority , and for reasons that have been cited. But to slag off other calibers based upon a criteria applicable mostly to such a scenario is to dismiss a whole slew of nice shooting and fine calibers.

But then I still shoot .338 mag too and constantly get the question of why I don't switch to .338 Lapua , and many folks don't understand why I just acquired a .375 RUM for the move back to the Far North and a defensive Bear rifle.

Once again , to each their own , 7mm mag has stood me in good stead all the way from varminting in extended distance windy scenarios all the way up to longer range Elk and Moose , that is of course within the context of civilian scenarios rather than military scenarios , though in a 'bugout and SHTF' case I tend to think it would prove quite adequate in an anti-personell role. God forbid that I'd ever have to be in such a situation , and if that came true I'd tend to make tracks and hope that the land and nature would take care of any opponent.

And at this juncture I'm trying to cut down on my firearms collection , not add to it ,I've got too many to pack into the bush as it is if my offer on the place up north ( way out above NakNek) works out.

And for what it's worth , a couple of close friends of mine living bush have made out for a couple of decades with an Enfield in .303 british and a .22 lr pistol and .375 H and H respectively.

And to reiterate it again 'to each theri own' , and I'm nothing if not fairly pragmatic about these things , if it works for the individual then it works for them.


B.

 

[Maverick223]

Here's what the original question was ( paraphrased) " why isn't the 7mm mag used more as a long range round?"

You managed to leave out the part about killing people...and that means military, or the OP has some bad thoughts that I'd rather not contribute to.

Well, I had no idea I was some kind of "caliber elitist", since I own rifles in several calibers, although I must admit, none chambered in the Holy Grail of LR shooting: the 7mm Rem Mag.

Join the club, apparently that is what happens when you try to answer the OPs question.

 

[Bluenote]

Quote:
Here's what the original question was ( paraphrased) " why isn't the 7mm mag used more as a long range round?"

You managed to leave out the part about killing people...and that means military, or the OP has some bad thoughts that I'd rather not contribute to.


Quote:
Well, I had no idea I was some kind of "caliber elitist", since I own rifles in several calibers, although I must admit, none chambered in the Holy Grail of LR shooting: the 7mm Rem Mag.

Join the club, apparently that is what happens when you try to answer the OPs question.

*********************


And how do you get that from the crap has transpired? So lets look again.


A. There are a great many folks shooting at extended ranges with the caliber in question , over a variety of types of shooting.


B. I *NEVER* at any time refered to ANY caliber as the 'holy grail' of shooting , so that particular sarcastic and snide bull**** was uncalled for.

C. When one puts forth that kind of crap one should expect it back in return , and if that's not a demonstration of snide elitism I don't know what is , along with the " you've only got 57 posts here" crap.

D. Want to show where I voiced any objection whatsoever to the answering or the original query?


In closing what this comes down to is a couple of folks ( and no I'm not refering to you) being unable to take what they dish out and getting butthurt about it.

And in the long run the whole thing is a bit hilarious to me , as are certain assumptions aimed my way.

At any rate we all know why the 7mm mag isn't used , it's a sporting caliber for crying out loud , do I need to highlight yet again the standardisation factor inherent with .308?

As far as the 'buffalo the newbie' attitude of certain individuals , if you haven't noticed I don't 'buffalo' real well , and that seems to frustrate a couple of folks. , not that I really give a hang one way of the other , they'll get over it or they won't , no sweat off my dangly bits either way.

Have a good evening ( seriously)

 

[Maverick223]

In the below, my rebuttal is in red for contrast and transparency...

A. There are a great many folks shooting at extended ranges with the caliber in question , over a variety of types of shooting. Sure there are, however it is not an accepted long range anti-personnel cartridge. Will it work?...yes, and is better in some respects than some rounds that are in service today (namely the 7.62NATO); Is it the best option for this task...no, there are superior cartridges that are currently employed in this role that offer advantages (the .300WM and the .338LM). IIRC the Army is considering phasing out the 7.62NATO in favor of the .300WM in sniper rifles, due to the advantages that the cartridge offers.

B. I *NEVER* at any time refered to ANY caliber as the 'holy grail' of shooting , so that particular sarcastic and snide bull**** was uncalled for. You seem to be vehemently defending its use, and attack others that do not agree.

C. When one puts forth that kind of crap one should expect it back in return , and if that's not a demonstration of snide elitism I don't know what is , along with the " you've only got 57 posts here" crap. I don't care if you have 57,000 posts you seem to be the one that is harassing folks with other views and getting your panties in a twist when others express distaste for your disrespect and personal attacks.

D. Want to show where I voiced any objection whatsoever to the answering or the original query? Sure, see the statement below, where you stated what the OPs intentions were (which seems to be incorrect)...unless you are the OP, how do you know that?

And quite frankly we AREN'T talking about 'military use' , we're talking about useage in civilian hands , which of course does not leave us to the arbitrary restrictions suffered by the military.

 

[blackops]

Whooooa what happen here??

Blue, chill man. These are good guys and they know their stuff (not to say you don't).

Don, everytime I see that thing it puts a smile on my face. Aaahh krieger can't come soon enough.