Why should a citizen not arrest a burgler?

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Y

yy

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Aside from 1) police organizations natually want to maintain a monopoly on police powers, 2) no sane sheriff/police chief want to expose their department to liabilities if they give public approval for common citizen arrest, and 3) the burgler can sue for imprisonment and probably win

What are the downsides, tactically and strategically, for a *single* citizen who arrests and then books a burgler?

What changes if we have multiple citizens? What about disturbing the peace to armed robbery?



I mean I don't want to pretend to be a saint. I do want to protect my property (my life for sure). And threats of violence work so much better with actually violence to back up the threat. Who actually would claim that a burgler would apologize and run when I walk in and say "please stop with a cherry on top."

How am I supposed to arrest (at least stop) said burgler?



note: I had my hubcaps ripped off by a street bum. The jerk saw me coming but I didn't know at the time. It just looked at me and walked off with my hubcaps. Once I saw the missing stuff sticking out of its handbag, I yelled stop! It just walked away never looking back.

the upside is that I am not hurt and my livelihood was not in jeopardy.
The downside is that my territory was violated and I could not do what I wanted to do. I specifically did not run after and arrest the bum because I was angry and did not want to give the bum a free meal ticket for the rest of its life (that's what would happen if I used force to arrest, out of anger, then it sues and wins).

Think about these:
1. The bum had literally no property to lose. I could have my wages garnished for the rest of my life.

2. A lawyer can use a technicality to get me: touching or grabbing the burgler can be assault

3. It's just wrong that I have to pray for the bum to turn a knife on me so I can use deadly force.

There's got to be a way affect arrest and defend my territory and property!
 
Defend your territory?:uhoh: Are you a bear or some kind of critter?:D

How about using . . . the Rule of Law? You are a witness, raise the hue and cry and summon those THR-eeevil JBTs in blue to swoop down upon the helpless citizen allegedly exerting unauthorized control over your property. The purported evildoer is whisked away to the county jug for Criminal Conversion and held until the embodiment of eeevil (the only eeevil eeeviler than a JBT), the criminal defense attorney, motions the court to release him as he is a victim of a bear mauling and society.

Anyone else remembering Mayberry?:D "Citizen's arrest, citizen's arrest . . .":p
 
Thanks El Tejon, I needed that.

My mood was dark when I spewed this thread. I just now realized how comical the huffing and puffing was.

-IancantbethisfunnyifItried:D
 
As one comic said...."citizen's arrest....more like citizen's a$$ kicking."
If you stop someone from stealing your stuff at gun point it COULD be considered brandishing a firearm.Now I know we all work hard for our stuff,but trials are even more expensive...now if your life is threatened I say blast away.But you can always buy new stuff...having said that,it REALLY ticks me off when some dirthole steals someone else's hard earned stuff...in a perfect world these people would be beaten like a rented mule.Unfortunatly our world is not perfect and sometimes good people doing what is morally right ,go to jail.....
We all need to move to Texas,where you can actually protect your stuff.:cool:
 
yy, no problem, everyone gets stressed out.

When I teach my portion of the NRA Defense of Home and Hearth (or whatever it's called) on citizen's arrest, I always remind my guys about the difference between what they legally CAN do and what they SHOULD do.:D

Under the circumstances you describe, you're a birddog--point.:D Talk to the cops here at THR. When they arrive at a jumping street party, they just follow the fingers.:p
 
As one comic said...."citizen's arrest....more like citizen's a$$ kicking."
Click to expand...


yy, i think this might have applied to you in that situation. all the bum needed was a little roughing up in a dark alley. he isnt going to try to call the police because they arent going to take his word over yours.

:evil:
 
buy guns -

I'm going to assume you are kidding, `cause that's a really bad idea.

yy -

The rule of law is clear -- although it varies a great deal from state to state.

In most states, including mine, it is perfectly legal for a citizen to arrest another. Just get the right guy, or you'll be in for a world of legal trouble.

The police chief does not confer the power of citizen's arrest. That comes from the legislature.

That said, it's usually not a good idea. Police, who have handcuffs, batons, vests, retention holsters and weeks of training in the art, still don't like to take someone into custody without backup.

Since you probably don't carry bracelets, a nightstick, OR a trained partner, do you really want to get into a ground fight with a gun on your hip? Or without?

Making a justified arrest is not assault, unless you gratuitously beat the snot out of the perp. But is it worth the risk to your health?
 
a . . . citizen who arrests and then books a burgler
Click to expand...

A citizen's arrest is actually a detention, coerced or otherwise. The cops are going to have to take the person into custody and bring him to jail. I can't imagine a jail that is going to allow you to drive into the facility with the bad guy in the back of your car and book the guy in.
 
Tactical and strategic downsides to doing an arrest yourself?

Take it from a personal safety perspective. You try to arrest a burglar and the burglar is willing to fight to the death to keep from being detained and you just thought the stakes were for the value of your TV. So now you are in a life and death fight with a guy over your TV.

Maybe there is a small scuffle and the bad guy gets cut and is bleeding. You secure him and come in contact with his fluids. Later, he is sent to jail for his actions, you are deemed a neighborhood hero, and then you learn you got HIV from the burglar. So even when you won, you lost.

Personally, for normal circumstances, I see no reason in wanting to come into physical contact with a bad guy. Burglars in my home may get away, get killed, or get held at some distance via gunpoint, but I am not going to approach them close enough such that they can engage me in a physical struggle. I may or may not wint he physical struggle, but if I keep my distance, let the guy go, or have killed him, then the threat to me is reduced. I don't believe in approaching supposedly dead or injured bad guys either.
 
Okay. Here in Texas Burglary is a felony, and you are perfectly within your rights to perform an on-view Citizens Arrest of the actor.

That being said...

Over the past decade I have had probably 100+ hours in what we refer to as 'Mechanics of Arrest'. Which is CopSpeak for 'How To Get The 'Cuffs On Somebody'.

Despite what Hollywood shows, putting someone under physical arrest isn't easy, but I'm sure you understand that.

Now for the part you may not have thought of.

Ever written up a Probable Cause Affidavit? As the arresting person, you gotta write up the PC. I know what elements make up the offense of Burglary...do you?

Remembering that if you forget to include one or more of the elements, the magistration judge will kick your burglar loose, and you'vd got to come in and re-do your whole PC, only this time so that the D.A. will issue an arrest warrant to haul your burglar back in.

Need I add that the PC that the D.A. is going to want for an arrest warrant can be somewhat different than the PC needed for an on-sight arrest?

Now, Burglary is a felony, so your burglar has the right to demand an examining trial. That being a trial before a J.P. to determine if there was, in fact, enough evidence to warrant an arrest. Guess who's gotta be there? Yep, you do.

Now, just because your critter lost his examining trial, it doesn't mean that he isn't going up before the Grand Jury, to do pretty much the exact same thing he just did at his examining trial.

Yes! As the arresting person, you get to go before the Grand Jury. Wear a good suit, but not one that is too fancy. Plan on testifying in front of the Grand Jury for an hour or more.

And so it goes...

Most non-LEO citizens that I've come across who have made a Citizens Arrest don't plan on doing it again any time soon.

LawDog
 
There's quite a bit to it...

Since I live in Virginia, I will comment with Virginia in mind.

the power to arrest comes from the common law ; a citizen may arrest someone for the acts of a felony, misdemeanor or breach of the peace committed in his/her presence - see '03 Hudson vs. Commonwealth:
http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opnscvtx/1022703.txt

What's breach of the peace?
http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavtx/2585993.txt
http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavtx/1697001.txt

Tonyb already pointed out that you may well invite the charge of brandishing under certain circumstances... this is also muddy...

In VA, you may use reasonable force to protect your property, but, you may not threaten or use lethal force to defend property(only); see:
http://www.courts.state.va.us/txtops/1991786.txt

On the other hand, you are also not required to retreat...
http://www.courts.state.va.us/txtops/1991786.txt
and
http://www.courts.state.va.us/opinions/opncavtx/2527971.txt
"Long ago the Supreme Court noted that "'a [person] is not
obliged to retreat if assaulted in his [or her] dwelling, but may
use such means as are absolutely necessary to repel the assailant
from his [or her] house . . . even to the taking of life.'"
Fortune v. Commonwealth, 133 Va. 669, 687, 112 S.E. 861, 867
(1922)
...
noting that "[t]he common law in this state has long recognized
the right of a landowner to order a trespasser to leave, and if
the trespasser refuses to go, to employ proper force to expel
him").

If you're all still with me, as you can plainly see, there is quite a bit to this. Were you to stumble upon somebody in your house, carrying out your Stereo, or other valuables, you would be permitted, and, probably legally ok to use reasonable means to keep your property yours. But, you would not be ok pulling a weapon of any kind at that point unless the circumstances were different. Could you arrest a thief? Probably so, but then what do you do?

Regardless of whether you're going to "arrest" them, everybody reading this had better not let their ego get the best of them. The wise course here is you or your friend with you, significant other, wife, hubby - whomever - execute a perfect 5 step draw of their cell phone and ring up the 3 digits 9 1 1 - and don't hang up. If something bad happens instigated by the intruders, it will be recorded. And for God's sake, when the cruisers roll up, do what the Uniforms tell you, the last thing you want is the Uniforms thinking you are the bad guy.

There may well be some people who aren't that fond of police reading this, but in this instance, you had better realize that the police are paid to professionally arrest people, and will be far more effective, and efficient at it than someone who does not know how to properly wrestle with someone to gain their compliance and cuff them. You want the pleasure of telling some intruder 'you're under arrest', fine, but don't try to imitate what you saw on cops last night, or you just might end up looking stupid, or worse.

I'm probably a better gun handler, shooter, marksman, driver than most police officers, and I'm sure there are some who are better than I am... I do not contest a law officer's efficiency and proficiency at cuffing though, in my opinion, that is a very, very tough job that can very easily be underestimated with bad results.

If you've got someone who doesn't belong in your home, be a good, responsible citizen, and good witness. Dutifully turn them over to the pros - who have no love for burglars - with your 100% cooperation. Let them know that you will be willing to do your part - statement, testifying truthfully as may be necessary so that the offender won't be doing it again without some time to think about it in jail. Leave the cuffing to the pros.

HTH
 
the joys of American justice...

...The criminal has the right to steal with impugnity...citizens have an obligation to let them do so "it's only stuff", and send them off to their neighbors for a repeat performance...until the graduate from "stuff" and are ready for "double jeopardy"...

"Molon Labe" shouldn't just be about tyranny from the government, it should be about refusing to be a victim...refusing to be an enabler to those who choose crime as a vocation...but I'm sure I'm just shouting into the wind...

...all the "well you can't or you shouldn'ts" boil down to this...we have created a society that stacks the deck in favor of the criminal, and the rest of us have a "civic duty" to perpetuate that flawed premise...somethin's gotta' give...

CZ52'
 
Well if he's in your house and you have the "drop" on him, what are you supposed to do?

Escort him out of the house before the cops get there?
 
First off, if you mean burglary, then it is a structure:

burglary
n. the crime of breaking and entering into a structure for the purpose of committing a crime. No great force is needed (pushing open a door or slipping through an open window is sufficient) if the entry is unauthorized. Contrary to common belief, a burglary is not necessarily for theft. It can apply to any crime, such as assault or sexual harassment, whether the intended criminal act is committed or not. Originally under English common law burglary was limited to entry in residences at night, but it has been expanded to all criminal entries into any building, or even into a vehicle.

If you mean burglary in many states you can shoot the burglar without any provaction if he is inside or trying to get inside (check state laws).

Now stealing hubcaps, most places you could not shoot him. The Model Penal Code had an interesting provision for use of force to stop some enumerated crimes, one of which was felony theft (for the purposes of the MPC felony theft was $500+). It is a rare state which has this or something like it on the books. The spare on my vehicle is worth $500+ so it would be interesting.

So stealing hubcaps. Yell, you are under arrest and chase the bum down. I would. I would also, if no one was around, beat/shoot/etc. Most bums have a knife/screwdriver etc. and he threatened me with it.

Do society a favor.
 
I am really impressed with the quality of the answers here.

Much more thought than testosterone

Food for thought;

"If you are in your house and have the drop on him"

What are you going to do if he simply starts walking away in a non-threatening manner?

Or if he struggles while you try to imobilize him.
 
Is there a difference betwen a "citizen arrest" and me standing over the perp yelling "keep your a** on the ground" until the police arrive to do the "arrest" part?




If you find someone stealing your hubcaps (or other items outside of your home) and you demand he drop them and leave, if he tries to get up in your face his crime is no longer "attempted theft" but is "assault" in which case you can (maybe) draw down on him and we're back at my first paragraph?
 
"If you are in your house and have the drop on him"
Click to expand...

What are you going to do if he simply starts walking away in a non-threatening manner?
Click to expand...

If he walks away on his own, great,you can't shoot him for leaving, but if he submits to your instructions, lies down or kneels down with his hands on his head unitl the police arrive, are you in legal trouble for detaining him at gun point? Is that even considered a citizen's arrest.

Otherwise, If you just escort him out of the house, what's to stop him from coming back later when you're not home to steal you guns. Or molesting my wife and 2 young children when I'm not home.

If he's there for sexual molestation reasons, "shooing" him away could be an invitation to come back. Those people are not necessarily rational.
 
Z asks:

Is there a difference betwen a "citizen arrest" and me standing over the perp yelling "keep your a** on the ground" until the police arrive to do the "arrest" part?

[SS] I think no. The salient question would be if the offender felt as if he was "free to go" much like a seizure. Clearly, no reasonable person - the standard most in use - would simply shrug, and walk away in the face of a gun. I will make two specific points, to further discuss.

1: at this point, you have a person in custody, and you are awaiting the law enforcement cavalry. You had better get your story heard first, that story better be accurate, and substantiated by the evidence around, and you had better be in the moral and legal "right". If the offender is 'caught' at weapon point, you can be damn sure when the uniforms roll up, he's going to have his own version of what 'happened'.

2: When a law officer (sworn) effects an arrest (s)he is protected by sovereign immunity from civil and criminal prosecution. Citizens are not afforded this protection and this should underscore the point that you had better be within your rights to detain this offender by force.




If you find someone stealing your hubcaps (or other items outside of your home) and you demand he drop them and leave, if he tries to get up in your face his crime is no longer "attempted theft" but is "assault" in which case you can (maybe) draw down on him and we're back at my first paragraph?

[SS] Not just no, but HELL NO. This offender is not a 'threat' per se, is not putting you in any imminent danger of bodily harm or death, and you would not be eligible to claim either justifiable self defense, or excusable self defense. <- Unless this is superceded by state statute.

Are you trying to be a guest in the grey bar hotel?



.45 asks:

If he walks away on his own, great,you can't shoot him for leaving, but if he submits to your instructions, lies down or kneels down with his hands on his head unitl the police arrive, are you in legal trouble for detaining him at gun point? Is that even considered a citizen's arrest.

Otherwise, If you just escort him out of the house, what's to stop him from coming back later when you're not home to steal you guns. Or molesting my wife and 2 young children when I'm not home.

[SS] the latter is pretty high up the ladder of very bad ideas. Never, ever, ever let someone go that has just stared down the barrel of your gun. Call Johnny Law! Else, he's going to get his story heard by the police and YOU will then be in hot water (maybe - why take the chance?)


If he's there for sexual molestation reasons, "shooing" him away could be an invitation to come back. Those people are not necessarily rational.

[SS]
Here is a situation which I've thought about due to relevance.

What if the layout of your house is not conducive to escape by means other than the front door... Johnny CCW comes home, and surprises Otis Badguy in the act of theft. We will speculate for the sake of discussion that Otis has defeated your door locks, and came equipped with some dog treats to put your 'alarm system' to sleep.

Otis is now staring at you and, coincidentally, the only way out of the house. Otis is unarmed by common observation.

a) Draw? (assume you have time).
b) Back out ; let him escape unharmed
c) Stand your ground & dial 911
d) run like hell
e) A and C

I would bet that I would probably be frightened out of my wits, probably leading me to draw. I would *HOPE* I would do C, unless / until Otis were to attempt escape, then I'd hope I would be a good witness...

If he had something I'd trip him on the way out though :evil:
(hey, the law says 'reasonable force')...
 
[SS] Not just no, but HELL NO. This offender is not a 'threat' per se, is not putting you in any imminent danger of bodily harm or death, and you would not be eligible to claim either justifiable self defense, or excusable self defense. <- Unless this is superceded by state statute.

Are you trying to be a guest in the grey bar hotel?
Click to expand...

Correct, he is not a 'threat' per se and not putting me in imminent danger of bodily harm or death while he's steeling my hubcaps.

But, if I tell him to cut it out and get away from my car and his response is to come after me then he's a 'threat' and at that point would I be justified in drawing a weapon in self defense?


Certainly you don't want to brandish your weapon to get him to stop stealing your property. I'm just wondering if I would be in trouble for "inciting him to violence" or some other such nonsense by telling him to cease and desist from stealing my property.


Here is a situation which I've thought about due to relevance.

What if the layout of your house is not conducive to escape by means other than the front door... Johnny CCW comes home, and surprises Otis Badguy in the act of theft. We will speculate for the sake of discussion that Otis has defeated your door locks, and came equipped with some dog treats to put your 'alarm system' to sleep.
Click to expand...
Here in Colorado (so check your state laws) in this situation, Johnny CCW could draw and fire if 3 conditions are met.

1) the "perp" has illegally entered your domicile
2) the "perp" is there to commit additional crimes (more then just the crime of B&E ... theft would count)
3) you believe the "perp" may harm you you will have to be able to articulate why

In that case you are fully justified under Colorado's "Make My Day" law to use lethal force.
 
quick summary:

strategically: citizen's arrest is sound only with good tactics

but tactically citizen's arrest is fraught with dangers and pitfalls.



So a wise man lets the burgler go *with* his property and lives another day. ....sigh.... I'll just have to be content that the stolen property carries its own bad karma.


Wise living can be hard on the ego sometimes
 
Carry one of those mini camera-phones, and take lots of pictures. Then let the police handle it. Those things are going to revolutionize crime fighting.
 
Is it just me or does everybody get all spun up when they hear the phrase "Crime Fighter?"

I'll check back in a few hours, gotta put on my cape, fire up the motorcycle and head out on patrol..... :D
 
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