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Why so much disdain for the .25 acp?

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by Guvnor, Dec 10, 2012.

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  1. leadchucker

    leadchucker Member

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    You're going to have to learn not to be so sensitive, especially to a little tongue-in-cheek humor. You take yourself too seriously. The fact that a .25 can kill is obvious, and no indignant explanation from you is required.

    As to the LCP/380 suggestion, it still stands. A 380 round will be considerably more effective than a .25 round. And its recoil is still quite mild compared to anything bigger or more powerful
     
  2. otasan56

    otasan56 Member

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    The cartridges ability to kill is not what matters here. It is the ability to drop an opponent and cease his homicidal functions immediately. Believe me I wont be aiming for the liver with my G17 9mmP. I'll be hitting the homicidal gunman in the forehead, nose, or open mouth. I won't be aiming for the heart - felons can still shoot and kill with a damaged heart.
     
  3. Guvnor

    Guvnor Member

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    Unfortunately this topic has turned into a bit of a pissing match...which is not what I intended. I was just looking to have a discussion on the .25 and how and why it got such a bad rep and why its always the butt of bad jokes. its a cartridge with a rich history over the past century. I obviously do not advocate the .25 (or a .22 for that matter) as a primary home defense gun, unless that's all you had or could handle.

    *Mods, my apologies for opening a can of worms.*
     
  4. otasan56

    otasan56 Member

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    It doesn't look like a pissing match to me.

    Just a friendly exchange of ideas about a controversial cartridge. Some people must be informed about the capabilities of this old cartridge. :D
     
  5. The Lone Haranguer

    The Lone Haranguer Member

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    I have no disdain for it, but for self defense, why handicap yourself when so many other options are available? Not that the .25 doesn't have a niche. I could see a little Beretta 950, Colt vest pocket or Baby Browning as a BUG, for example. Or, for that matter, just plain fun.
     
  6. JR47

    JR47 Member

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    I do NOT intend to DROP anyone with a handgun. I intend to make them stop attempting to harm me. Anyone throwing out such trash-talk is asking to be prosecuted.

    The .25 ACP was never intended to be a service round. It's funny how, after nearly a century of protecting citizens, today we seem to think that it's ineffective.

    In many cases, according to experts, the simple production of a gun into a scenario will stop aggressive action. Then, MOST crooks won't hang around to trade fire with anyone. If injured, they need medical attention, and hospitals are required by law to report them.

    Note that, in the Armed Citizen columns of the NRA publications, there are many stories of people, armed with "less than effective", who somehow manage to run off, or kill, people attempting to harm them.

    If the horror stories, or smug statements actually held any truth, one would never read about a .22 pistol, or a .25 ACP pistol, successfully defending a citizen.

    Instead of insisting that the person describing his wife's abilities ignore her complaints and wishes, and buy "X" or "Y", perhaps we should try to work with what is presented. A .25 ACP Beretta is hardly a "junk gun". Perhaps she could be talked into a 3032 Tomcat, instead. The .32 ACP is capable of stopping people during war-time, on a battlefield. While it, once again, just doesn't seem to fit into chairborn commando's opinion of "good enough", that is hardly important.

    If recoil is an issue, try having her hold, then shoot, a Colt Mustang, or the Sig P238. Both of these are locked-breech guns, and metal framed. They mitigate recoil nicely. They are also small enough for a less than strong set of wrists to handle.

    The idea that 9x19 is the minimum "effective round" is nice, but really simplistic. If the shooter cannot handle the gun's recoil, size, and weight, they will not be accurate. Accuracy, not caliber, controls who walks away, and who is "dropped".:)
     
  7. otasan56

    otasan56 Member

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    BUG? It is more of a LDG (latch ditch gun). I'd have two or more serious handguns ahead of it.
     
  8. jimbo555

    jimbo555 Member

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    Guvnor,when your Grandfather carried his 25 as a backup they didn't have a keltec p3at or a ruger lcp or he would have chosen one of them. 380's and even 32's were much larger and heavier in those days,and it made the 25's a more viable pocket choice. Not so today!
     
  9. pikid89

    pikid89 Member

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    Otasan, im not sure why you seem to think a .25 in not a "serious" gun...any gun that throws a hunk of lead fast enough to penetrate bodily tissue is a "serious" gun...if the lady wants to carry a .25, then she should carry a .25...the .25 is a deadly bullet, as proven by lots of dead badguys over the years

    I agree that there are lots more "better" rounds out there, but the .25 is nothing to try and admonish someone for carrying. Plenty of people carry .22s and dont catch the flak that .25s get.

    "gimme your money....oh crap a gun!!, oh wait thats a .25...gimme your money"
    -----No Bad Guy EVER
     
  10. Tcruse

    Tcruse Member

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    I am not so sure that the .22LR might not be a better choice. The following is from one study that has been published:
    25ACP

    # of people shot - 68
    # of hits - 150
    % of hits that were fatal - 25%
    Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 2.2
    % of people who were not incapacitated - 35%
    One-shot-stop % - 30%
    Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 62%
    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 49%

    .22 (short, long and long rifle)

    # of people shot - 154
    # of hits - 213
    % of hits that were fatal - 34%
    Average number of rounds until incapacitation - 1.38
    % of people who were not incapacitated - 31%
    One-shot-stop % - 31%
    Accuracy (head and torso hits) - 76%
    % actually incapacitated by one shot (torso or head hit) - 60%

    Looks like a good .22LR with one of the high velocity hp bullets might be a better choice.
     
  11. Fotno

    Fotno Member

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    I think what many of the responders are trying to say, is that while a .25 auto may be one of the least imposing of the weapon choices out there, it's not necessarily the lightest recoiling; and it's certainly had a questionable history as a defensive round.

    Recoil Sensitivity: There are really two basic types of recoil sensitivity, physical and psychological. If your wife is physically sensitive to recoil - in that it's painful to her - there may be nothing anyone can do to help. Because of certain physical limitations, some folks simply don't have the ability to shoot a firearm. If it's a psychological sensitivity, training and exposure to more different types of firearms and shooting can make all the difference.

    Recoil itself: A smaller handgun chambered in a lighter caliber does not necessarily equal less felt recoil. Some of the stiffest recoiling handguns out there, are harsher by virtue of their lightness. A steel framed revolver will produce less felt recoil than a alloyed framed gun in the same caliber. Sometimes a slighter larger, heavier gun is the easiest to shoot well. When my wife wanted to learn to shoot, we started with a pellet rifle, moved to a .22 caliber handgun, and then a .38 revolver. She now has her own Glock 19 - her choice - and she is very proficient with it.

    Good luck in your search.
     
  12. Plan2Live

    Plan2Live Member

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    Wow! Is G-lock the only pistol that is capable of firing 9mm+P+ ammo? :banghead:

    For every story of a .25 failing to stop a threat there is a counter-story where it does. An Attorney friend of mine recently and successfully argued a case of two drug dealers shooting it out. Bad Guy #1 pulled a G-lock 9mm on BG #2, fired and missed, whereupon BG #2 grabbed his Lorcin .25 and shot BG #1 in the heart. BG #1 dropped his G-lock, stumbled back clutching his chest, and exanguinated. Lorcin 1, G-lock 0. :what:
     
  13. Kiln

    Kiln Member

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    What is annoying is that when somebody comes online for information about the .25acp they see all that "humor" (it is also misinformation) about how the .25acp will bounce off of the average human being without injuring him and then they go around repeating it everywhere afterwards.

    Without fail somebody makes that stupid comment at some point in a .25acp thread every time and it just isn't true.

    At one point in time the Raven MP25 was one of the most used guns for murder in the country. That tells me that the little .25acp, while not ideal, does what it is supposed to do.
     
  14. leadchucker

    leadchucker Member

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    Okay, no further jokes about the .25 from me, just information. Any firearm is potentially lethal. We all know that, or at least we should.

    What may be more pertinent here is the round's ability to end a potential threat in a self defense situation. If you can be sure you can keep a cool head and place your shot accurately, you can likely end the threat with a .25. That said, you can also just as likely end the threat with a .22. If you're really good, you might even be able to do it with a fair sized rock.

    However, if you're like the vast majority of us, you just might not be able to center the shot on a vital spot, especially in a high stress situation. In that case, yes, the attacker may well die - in a few hours or days, but in the meantime, he is still likely to be quite able to do you harm.

    A larger, more powerful round is going to be a bit more forgiving of an imperfectly placed shot, and as has been mentioned, likely has some additional added shock effect.
     
  15. Kiln

    Kiln Member

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    I agree with all that you said and wasn't debating that larger calibers aren't better. I was just saying that I could live without seeing "if I got shot with a .25 and found out about it" jokes and so could the whole wide interwebs.

    I wasn't directing my comment specifically at anyone, just a generalization so don't feel like I'm attacking you.
     
  16. Jaymo

    Jaymo Member

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    Penetrating gel is completely different from penetrating bone.
    Likewise, executing a restrained prisoner with a shot to the base of the skull is different from a center mass shot on a violent attacker.
     
  17. mr.trooper

    mr.trooper Member

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    Most people need something to look down on.

    Hating the 25 makes them feel superior, and facts need not interject.
     
  18. rookorami

    rookorami Member

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    You have a good point Med, it seems people forget about their duty to retreat if possible in a defensive situation.
     
  19. Kiln

    Kiln Member

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    My point with the execution post was to show that the absolute internet knowledge that says the .25acp won't even penetrate the skull is a huge load of crap. Restrained or not, headshots did the trick.
     
  20. MedWheeler

    MedWheeler Member

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    Leadchucker writes:
    There is nothing "tongue-in-cheek" about an indignant condescending attitude that crops up in every thread in which the use of any caliber below 9mm for self-defense comes up. It's old already, beat to death. I don't know; maybe you haven't been around long enough to have grown weary of hearing it.

    Stop and think: you weren't admitting that you felt the same way (that being shot with a .25 will only make one mad); you were only quoting what you've "been told many times", as you put it. What I was attacking was the message, not the messenger. Perhaps the messenger should try not to be so sensitive.

    And while you stick to your point on the ".380 micro-pistols are way more easy to shoot and control", I'll stick to my point on combining a firearms-defense with the concept of self-extraction as well.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2012
  21. greyeyezz

    greyeyezz Member

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    If this caliber was as hot as the topic.......................
     
  22. Teachu2

    Teachu2 Member

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    It's not completely worthless, just worth less than nearly any other current-production caliber. It's the peso of pistols.
     
  23. 481

    481 Member

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    It might very well be.

    Domestic production of the .25ACP continues to this day and the major manfacturers (Winchester, Federal, Remington, etc.) wouldn't be making it if somebody wasn't buying it.
     
  24. Kiln

    Kiln Member

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    Their incredibly compact size is what they're useful for. The Kel Tec P32 isn't even as tiny as a Bauer or similar steel .25acp pistol.

    They're good for when you need a gun but can't carry even an P3AT sized gun easily. The Browning or Bauer .25acp can be hidden on your person extremely easily. There are lots of negatives to carrying a .25 caliber pistol but they're not nearly as bad as some people seem to believe.
     
  25. TimboKhan

    TimboKhan Moderator

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    This needs to calm down some, or its getting closed, which i am already tempted to do. Getting this fired up about a situationally useful but generally marginal cartridge is goofy.


    Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2
     
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