Why Stay

[JCF]

Your listed location says 'San Diego', which has a very high crime rate.

And by the way... LA's murder rate is lower than that of Phoenix, WAYYY lower than Atlanta, lower than Cincinnati, lower than Dallas, and lower than Milwaukee.

San Francisco's murder rate is lower than that of either Oklahoma City or Tulsa.

Now Oakland on the other hand... that's a dangerous city. Their murder rate is slightly higher than Little Rock. Still way safer than Atlanta though.

 

[Str8Shooter]

I grew up in Cudahy, CA, a small city close to LA. My parents and brother still live there. I left when I joined the Air Force out of high school. Came to Colorado to attend an AF tech school and decided this was the place for me when I left the AF after eight years. Been here for over 25 years now and although I travel a lot for my job, I haven't seen too many other places I'd rather live.

When I go back to visit my family in CA, I can hardly stand the crowded, decrepit state of much of the LA area; graffiti everywhere you look, nonstop traffic jams every time you try to go anywhere, etc., etc. It's so depressing, I can hardly wait to get back to Colorado. My old home town has one of the densest populations in CA- not to mention gangs and a city government that is thoroughly corrupt. Sound like fun? Check out this article on Cudahy:
http://www.laweekly.com/news/features/the-town-the-law-forgot/15731/

Guns had nothing to do with my initial decision to live here- I didn't even own one at the time. It had a lot more to do with the people I met in CO, including my wife, whose family also lives here. Being able to have a CCW permit or even open carry is just icing on the cake, although I'd be hard pressed to give up those rights now to live someplace else. I'm not too happy with the way Colorado has been shifting toward the left (probably because of too many left-coast liberals moving here) but I do what I can to express my views to the local politicians every time a gun-related bill comes up in the legislature. If CO were to become less gun-friendly, I couldn't just pack up and move, though, because I'd never find another job in my field that pays near as well, not to mention my wife's family ties here. There is definitely more to life than guns.

 

[bluto]

Lots of truth spoken here. And much thanks for the U.K. and European perspectives.

Matt 87 -
Almost everything is taxed to a high or very high level, and that gets frittered away on hairbrained schemes and the government's pet freedom-tramping ideas.

Same thing over here dammit.

I think it needs to be emphasized (especially for those who view us from abroad) that among those activists I know, gun ownership isn't about a hobby ruling your life decisions. It isn't about those "gun crazy Americans" as our media would like to have the rest of the world see us. It's about fighting to maintain a lynchpin in our Bill of Rights. One as important as the 5th Amendment, now stood on it's head by the Kelo decision in 2005, about private property taken for public use. Or the 4th Amendment about illegal search and seizure currently being ignored in D.C. housing projects where police may be authorized to enter your apartment and look for guns without a warrant. Or any of the other Amendments under assault in our Bill of Rights guaranteed to us citizens to ensure our mastery of government and not the other way around.

Look at it this way: It is simply illegal and immoral, in the same sense countries have been taken over and transformed by dictatorial governments in Europe's past, for our government to take away rights from the People here and proclaim them for themselves.

It doesn't matter whether or not we'll miss shooting or whether we wouldn't mind giving up gun ownership to move somewhere else outside the U.S. or to find a job that pays more. It's about a totalitarian mindset that is aggressivly loosening the pillars of our Bill of Rights. Ripping them out in some cases. It's about understanding how our Constitution works and how the U.S. works - and why. And it's about a citizen's duty in this country to aggressively defend the only bulwark protecting citizens from government reversing the roles intended by the Founding Fathers that have made us what we are.

Our prosperity blurs what's happening for many. But to address the point of this thread: California's decline has been likened to boiling a frog by slowly heating the water (incrementalism). Everyone should take a step back and look at California as just one part of the frog.

Want to move? That's understandable. Even necessary sometimes. But you'd better fight for your rights wherever you end up because you're still gonna' be part of the frog.

 

[loneviking]

San Diego's murder rate is approximately equivalent to that of Henderson, NV.

It is lower than that of Reno, lower than Boulder City, lower than Las Vegas, lower than N. Las Vegas, lower than Mesquite, and slightly higher than Sparks.

And by the way... LA's murder rate is lower than that of Phoenix, WAYYY lower than Atlanta, lower than Cincinnati, lower than Dallas, and lower than Milwaukee.

San Francisco's murder rate is lower than that of either Oklahoma City or Tulsa.

Now Oakland on the other hand... that's a dangerous city. Their murder rate is slightly higher than Little Rock. Still way safer than Atlanta though.

I'd like to see the proof of these two quotes.

 

[plexreticle]

The Second Amendment was NOT put into the Constitution by the Founders merely to allow us a fun, interesting and educational hobby.

If that is all the right to keep and bear arms really amounts to in the end as far as you're concerned, then please consider taking up stamp or coin collecting along with sports cards or comic books as an alternative.

I said many people not me personally. You can blame the public school system and popular media for the attitude people have about their bill of rights.

I will live where I want (in the US) and have the guns I want regardless of what the law says. It's very simple.

I also believe the 2A will be the last of our rights to dissolve because of the money and clout backing it up.

Separation of church and state, illegal search and seizure, cruel and unusual punishment, states rights all have been degraded as much or more than the 2A.

People are apathetic I see it in these very forums, if it isn't 2A then it's anything goes as long as a Republican is doing it.

 

[TAB]

The Second Amendment was NOT put into the Constitution by the Founders merely to allow us a fun, interesting and educational hobby.

you know I wonder about people that thump the 2a like a bibble...and just like people that thump the bibble. I wonder if they have actually read the text, rather then just take a small qoute.

 

[La Pistoletta]

If you do, you'll find IKEA is pretty much the same here, and lots of people drive Volvos.

Globalization at work.

Yeah, I'm more interested in things like freedom of arms, freedom of speech, lower taxes and less statism in general though.

 

[Moonclip]

I didn't read most of the thread and unfortunately I live in CA. I may probably move one day. However I have had family in CA since at least the 1880's, I will not be forced out.

I will leave when I'm ready. I do still manage to have a gun collection numbering in three digits even here.

 

[La Pistoletta]

Our prosperity blurs what's happening for many.

This is true. If it wasn't for the immense productivity of those who do good in America, the erosion of rights would be all the more felt.

Make no mistake: the gradualism of the removal of your rights is very much by design. Don't fall for it. They've learned from history not to go about things too fast, Hitler style, and end up crashing and burning.

Instead, they space things out over several generations, always making sure that at no point is the overall assault on rights too intense or obvious so as to provoke revolt.

"Schhh, it'll be over before you know it."

It will, if you don't call the whispers for the slow, but lethal anaesthesia they are. Cut their heads off like that of a rattlesnake. Metaphorically speaking, of course. Or maybe not, if the lulling continues for too long.

 

[yokel]

I said many people not me personally.

Be at ease, my remarks were not directed at you in particular.

you know I wonder about people that thump the 2a like a bibble...and just like people that thump the bibble. I wonder if they have actually read the text, rather then just take a small qoute.

Not sure what that meant.

Perhaps you'd care to expound on this statement?

 

[SSN Vet]

your question implies that people have options....

Do you think it's easy to immigrate to more gun tolerant countries? Have you looked into what it takes? How much it costs?

 

[JCF]

I'd like to see the proof of these two quotes.

http://www.cityrating.com/crimestatistics.asp

Source: 2003 FBI Uniform Crime Reporting Statistics

 

[jackstinson]

you know I wonder about people that thump the 2a like a bibble...and just like people that thump the bibble. I wonder if they have actually read the text, rather then just take a small qoute.

I wonder about people who thump the "bibble", but haven't read the cover where it says "Bible"

 

[MarcusWendt]

Hmmm, leave my family, my friends, my job, my home, my way of life so I can own any gun I want? I think anyone who would do this either has o life and family or is a little obsessed.

Those who don't live here can't vote here, so they are limited in how they can help. Those that packed up and raised the white flag, showed their backs and ran really shouldn't be commenting.

Do Navy SEALs launch rockets from behind the safety of the green zone? No, they deploy into the enemy's backyard and wage war. Did Brig.Gen. McAuliffe say, well, it's pretty grim here boys, let's pack it up and go get some sauerkraut?

The question you need to ask is why aren't you here fighting with us if you have the convictions you claim to have?

So many love to say "California, New York or where ever is a lost cause". Well, how do lost causes get started? They get started when the cowards who "claim" to be supporters pack up and run.

Some will say it's about a bigger issue than guns, it's about freedom. It's about safety. All true, but freedom isn't free. Safety is great but I'm very safe. I live in southern CA and I feel very safe. Safer than I felt in some other parts of the country.

Will it ever get so bad that they come for all our guns? Maybe. At that time we will see who will stand up, and who will walk into the ovens. I know what I will do and I don't need to proclaim it on any internet forum to have the courage of my convictions.

Some moron recently claimed that there were no Patriots left in CA. It's that kind of mentality that makes me ill. You don't know what a patriot is until you have to put it all on the line for your country. Such claims are just more noise and internet bravado. Do patriots run, or do they stay and fight?

Just to be clear, I understand many here are formerly from CA. Many may have left to be closer to family, a better job, more affordable housing and reasons of that nature. A benefit was far less restrictive gun laws. THAT I understand and have no issue with. I'm speaking to those who claim to have packed up and moved out because CA or NY was becoming too anti gun.

 

[MiddleAgedKen]

It's a pretty accurate political barometer. If you don't want a socialist government meddling in your life by taking your money and your rights and telling you what to do, as the vast majority of us don't want, looking at how they treat the aquisition, ownership, and carry of firearms is a reliable way of gauging how they do with other things and how much political clout you have in that area.

Dingdingdingdingding!

Yellowfin wins the thread.

 

[ArmedBear]

loneviking, you have no clue what you're talking about if you think it's dangerous here.

Yes, cars are stolen in the middle of the night, although that has dropped dramatically in my area over the past decade.

The guns I have wouldn't stop that, and the people who steal cars to part them out in Mexico avoid confrontation, so they pose little danger to people. It can be an infuriating crime, but for all the people I've known who have had cars burglarized or stolen (I've had both, myself, but it was years ago), nobody has ever actually seen the thief. This is certainly one possible reason to want to live elsewhere, or at least it used to be when rates were higher, but it's not a reason to feel in any personal danger.

When I say "it's safe", I'm referring to crimes that happen outside one's home or business, that could be stopped by having a gun in one's pocket, i.e. relevant to the discussion. I have actually witnessed some crime here. NONE of it was relevant to the discussion.

And comparing a place to San Bernardino is damnation with faint praise. Furthermore, Redlands is one of those places where the cost-benefit ratio is dubious at this point. The climate and air quality are poor, it's nowhere near the beach, and the skiing is a lot better where you are now, yet homes in Redlands are still priced "California-style". I'd leave there, too, to move to Carson City -- if I had a source of income in Carson City, which many people over the past years have discovered isn't a given.

Overall murder rates for large cities aren't all that revealing, either. Except for "crimes of passion", they correlate with the prevalence of certain ethnicities in certain neighborhoods. Stay away from a few small parts of San Diego, and don't walk around dead-drunk at 2:30 AM, and you won't be a crime victim. Those parts of LA are bigger. Still, there are parts of LA where you have a good chance of being murdered. And there are parts where you are more likely to have a high-voltage wire fall on you or something. Furthermore, most murder victims know their killers; murder is most often not a random street crime anyway.

My point remains...

If I lived in other parts of the state, I'd be gone. If I didn't surf, I might have moved a while ago. If I just had a McJob, I might have moved, too. If there were not some good reasons to avoid some other places, including the loss of some other freedoms, I might go there. I might move anyway, sooner or later.

But there are worse places to be. MANY of them. Those who don't "get" that, probably haven't ever lived somewhere they really liked. I'm lucky, I guess, even when conflicted.

 

[hrgrisso]

Interesting

I hope no one feels I'm antagonizing them. First if i may address the vital statistics referenced earlier. I find it extremely interesting how to support a vital argument some will reference just the murder rate and leave out the rest of violent crime.

Unfortunately if you look at ALL VIOLENT CRIME LA is proportionately worse than Phoenix about as much as Phoenix's murder rate is worse worse than LA's.

I'm a bit confused as to those that suggest that leaving due to property values or jobs is ok but leaving because your rights are being infringed upon and you as one individual has no chance of changing things is cowardly? Again guns are not a be all end all but...

That is not to say to stay is cowardly. I asked for people's thoughts and I'm getting them. But this seems to be an akward conglomeration of thoughts.

I also find it interesting, and I'm sorry Armed Bear I don't mean to call you out but I found your comments on freedoms in California the rest of us don't enjoy very insightful. I was a bit intrigued that you pulled data from many various states, counties and municipalities to show how much more enlightened California was. I don't want to start a flame but I bet if I looked into California State, County and local laws I COULD find many instances of laws that are equally vile. Such as San Diego issuing permits for auto shows and then showing up to cite indiviuals with hot rods and rice burners for "street racing" when the cars were parked and turned off.

I agree that no place is perfect and that's why I asked the questions I have. What keeps certain individuals in areas where government (not just gun related) invades and infringes. I thought this question was extremely pertinent due to as has already been mentioned, the vast federal infringment of the 2nd, 4th, and 5th amendments. Not to mention all the unspoken rights that the constitution mentions but does not specify. I believe the world over we are in a time of vast government interference and violation of what should be inallienable rights.

As I believe that violent resistance is very limited in it's application then the only other immediate response is a shift in demographics, i.e. moving. After all we've seen the rights of the many violated for the few the world over. Banding together hasn't worked in the politcal process as we all have ideas on how best things should be done and thus support various candidates weakening our strength.

 

[JCF]

I'm a bit confused as to those that suggest that leaving due to property values or jobs is ok but leaving because your rights are being infringed upon and you as one individual has no chance of changing things is cowardly?

Because there isn't an amendment that states the right to keep and mow affordable lawns shall not be infringed.

I don't think anyone is a coward for leaving (though some do). However, if a group of folks felt quite strongly that there should be such an amendment, to the point that they invested a great deal of their time outspokenly advocating it, and one of their membership bailed for Texas... bet on it that they'd be considered a sell-out.

Unfortunately if you look at ALL VIOLENT CRIME LA is proportionately worse than Phoenix about as much as Phoenix's murder rate is worse worse than LA's.

Yes, I know.

And LA's overall violent crime is less than that of Memphis.

I'm not suggesting that LA is a safe place... or California for that matter. What I am trying to do is impress upon some folks that the fact that they have the ability to strap on a gun is pretty much meaningless to how much crime exists in their community. Gun ownership and crime are not related; not in the way that anti-gunners suggest, nor in the way many of us try to portray it. They have no bearing upon one another. And it is absolutely not in the best interest of our cause to keep on trying to make it into something that it isn't. Neither violence nor safety are contingent upon guns. Violence occurs regardless of whether there are guns around. Safety also.

It is also idiotic to divide the pro-gun population of this country with "we are better than you" nonsense. The 2a cause requires unity. This type of nonsense only makes the anti-gun establishment more effective.

I am a former Canadian citizen. I was an NRA member 20 years ago IN CANADA. I cheer EVERY time someone's 2a rights are recognized, and I take it personally whenever they are restricted... in California and everywhere else in the nation. I cheer every time ANYONE, ANYWHERE decides to fight for those rights.

Personally, I'm not prepared to write off ANYWHERE in this country, and I'm not going to turn away ANYONE who is willing to fight for my cause... regardless if they are republican, Democrat, liberal, conservative, white, black, mexican, atheist, gay, illegal or otherwise.

The reason?

Because I know that disease spreads, and overconfidence and complacency, like cowardice and helplessness, kills.

Talk about California and its' politics all you want. YOUR nation is potentially and realistically poised to elect someone of the ilk of either Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama to the White House. They haven't gotten there on the backs of liberal Californians alone friend.

Everyone keeps focusing on California and ignoring the big picture, it won't be long before you'll be listening to President Feinstein delivering a State of the Union Address trumpeting how much safer she is about to make all of us.

 

[ArmedBear]

I was a bit intrigued that you pulled data from many various states, counties and municipalities to show how much more enlightened California was.

No I didn't.

You're not calling me out, you're putting words in my mouth.

You asked what personal liberties might exist in California that don't elsewhere, and I named a bunch. When I named other states, I was considering other states where there are some jobs. I'm not independently wealthy and cannot move just anywhere, any time, and maintain my standard of living.

Limits on HOA power is a big one, for me, for example. Ditto for property tax limits.

But it's not about "enlightenment". No legislature is "enlightened". Local cops, even less so.

And Arizona has great gun freedoms (except for "Katrina protections"), but it's certainly not always "more free" than California.

 

[Thernlund]

And Arizona has great gun freedoms (except for "Katrina protections"), but it's certainly not always "more free" than California.

True, and sometimes true.


-T.

 

[ZombiesAhead]

1. Just because a state's gun laws are strict doesn't mean you don't have the right to defend yourself.

2. Even in the most draconian, anti-gun, socialist states of Europe a lot of people are pretty happy. The better question is; "Why leave?"

I'm sure you could move to some tribally governed village in Pakistan, etc. where you can get away with all sorts of bloodlust if that's most important for you in deciding where to live...

 

[.cheese.]

Why do you stay? I apologize if the question is impertinent but I know that I grow weary of anti’s moving to Az from California. I would love to welcome brother and sisters in arms from around the globe, as I know that many others would as well.

I would imagine many people care, but not enough to uproot their lives and start over. To be honest with the exception of Russia, you listed some very nice places to live if being armed isn't a solid part of your life.

 

[MarcusWendt]

I'm a bit confused as to those that suggest that leaving due to property values or jobs is ok but leaving because your rights are being infringed upon and you as one individual has no chance of changing things is cowardly? Again guns are not a be all end all but...

1) Your rights are infringed in every state. There are limitations on almost every right we have. Did you pack up and leave the US when the patriot act was implemented?

2) My issue is not so much with folks who leave, but the folks here and on other gun boards who leave and once they are nice and cozy in their gun friendly state come here and pontificate on how things in CA got so screwed up. Uh, all of you left others to fight. When has surrender ever won a war?

3) "you as an individual". That right there is the problem. ME ME ME. They pack up their toys and leave. They don't run for office, they don't stay here and vote the antis out of office. Each pro gun person who leaves leaves us weaker. Now they are in another state where they can't help us fight these BS laws that "infringe" our rights.

 

[ArmedBear]

Even WITHIN the realm of gun rights and self-defense...

Would I prefer to live under California's laws that restrict my ability to add certain firearms to my collection, but allow me to use the wide variety I can easily purchase to defend myself when threatened...

...or...

would I prefer to live under another state's laws that made it easier to get, say, an AKS, but where I could be charged with murder for killing a burglar in my own home if I didn't run upstairs and back up all the way to the far wall first?

SU-16 to defend your home legally, or the best M4gery you can buy and a murder charge... Hmmm...

And some of you think we should start killing people because it's easier to get a Kel-Tec than a Lewis Machine?

Nothing is that simple, now, is it?

 

[Ninja42]

I’ve been mulling posting this question over for quite some time. I mention that to share that my intent is not to offend but to truly gain insight and I didn’t want to post it until I could put into words my thoughts.

I ask those that live in areas where self defense via modern means i.e. firearms/knives and even pepper spray etc. are banned and trampled upon.

Great Britain
Europe
Eastern Europe
Russia,
New York
California

Why do you stay? I apologize if the question is impertinent but I know that I grow weary of anti’s moving to Az from California. I would love to welcome brother and sisters in arms from around the globe, as I know that many others would as well.

Especially if, upon arrival would join us in the working to reverse the anti’s progress and continue in promoting a realistic world view.

At what point is enough just that?

I know of the desire to stay in the land of your forebears, but is it realistic to believe that the current trends of foreign nations will be reversed? Just as those members in Cali and other states that may be too far gone, isn’t it time to push off and seek refuge in states with more appropriate world views? I mean to keep this respectful. Thank you for your time?

I live Northern Europe, I am 24 years old, and I would love to become an american if I could!

Here in Denmark firearms ownership is basically looked down upon, and carrying concealed weapons legally is an impossible dream. The left wing probaganda that we are fed throughout our early life through the media and our educational system have renderes a large part of the population socialist, and with socialist dominance comes overreliance on the help of the government, and with that the population is emasculated to the point where most of us would rather be beaten to death by burglars than shoot them and recieve punishment by the government for not relying on the police for protection. This is of course a gross generalization, but it is never the less true for most danes.

Also, anti-americanism is pretty widespread, and things that are widely considered 'american' such as rights and individualism is generally considered bad form. The 'rights' I have as a Danish citizen is described in the UN decleration of basic human rights, everything else is priviledges that can be taken away if I fail to use them properly, and one of those priviledges that we have been relieved from long ago is the right to self defence, against criminals and the government alike.

So why dont I just leave? Well, there is a number of factors that makes it impossible for me to escape.

- I would have to leave my friends and family behind, and I am just too tied to them to do that. I could stay in touch with some of them, but most of them would be lost to me.

- My significant other does not speak english, and she is not going to learn it any time soon. Furthermore she, as most other danes, see no problem with the direction Denmark is heading, and dosent understand my desire to get the hell out of here.

- My english is not very good, and I would have trouble getting a job in the US, if I could obtain a green card at all.

- I am currently working as a laboratory technician, but in 4-6 years I will have the option to take classes and graduate as an engeneer. I consider this career move to be very improtant, and I dont know if I can pull it off within a foreign educational system.

I´ll go as far as to admit that I will probably be on the first boat out of here when our society breaks down and the civil war breaks out (Wait 20 years tops, it will come.), but until then I´ll be sitting here like rabbid stuck in the headlights of a moving truck. Its probably hard for you to understand how I can feel that way, but frankly I dont really understand myself.

What you have over there is golden, dont let the socialists take it away from you!