Obsolete Rifle Rounds with Very Famous Offspring

[Archie]

Yes, really, and you’re just nitpicking. The 300 Savage is the parent case of what is commercially known as the 308 win.

I have heard this and read it various places. No doubt it is correct.
But I always revert to the actual dimensions of the case. The .308 Winchester or 7.62x51mm NATO or T-65 is externally a .30-06 Springfield about a half an inch shorter and internally has a bigger, stronger web.

 

[Nature Boy]

@Archie and @lysanderxiii

I relinquish the point to you guys

 

[BigBlue 94]

Was that an entirely experimental cartridge? Was it envisaged for the Springfield 1903 and then modified in the .30 Model of 1903? Strange designation given that the .30 Government / .30 Army (aka 30-40) was the .30 Ball Cartridge in 1901. Cool discovery but leaves us intrigued!

At least 10,000 rounds were made, but for what rifle, i cant say. I did not research it very far

 

[.38 Special]

Your Honor, the loyal opposition objects. The .375 H&H is certainly not obsolete. It is certainly correct to say the .375 H&H is the parent (grandparent?) of all the belted magnum cases.

Yes, but the .375 is not the father of belted cartridges. It actually is the progeny of the very first belted magnum, the .400/375 - and if that cartridge is not obsolete, then I don't know what is!

 

[Archie]

Yes, but the .375 is not the father of belted cartridges. It actually is the progeny of the very first belted magnum, the .400/375 - and if that cartridge is not obsolete, then I don't know what is!

You stumped me. I haven't heard of the .400/375 cartridge. So I looked it up in Cartridges of the World, 16th edition. It is not shown or listed under the title .400/375. I do find a .400 H&H magnum listed, but it is an offspring of the .375 H&H.

A web search shows the .400/375 Belted Nitro Express developed in 1905. The dimensions of the case indicate it was NOT the same head size as the later .375 H&H, which is the direct parent cartridge of all the current belted magnum cases.
The .400/375 is certainly a belted case, but nothing I can find was used either necked up or down from the .400/375 as they are from the .375 H&H. One can argue the .400/375 inspired other belted cases, but it is most assuredly not the case used for further development.
And you are right, the .400/375 is indeed obsolete.

 

[.38 Special]

Geez, @Archie. It was the first belted case. That's the whole point.

 

[Archie]

Geez, @Archie. It was the first belted case. That's the whole point.

Okay. By the way, the .30 Carbine is a .30 caliber round with a rimless case. Must be a descendant of the .30-06 Springfield by your statement.

 

[.38 Special]

Way to take a lighthearted comment and pedant it into an argument. I'm out.

 

[codytrucker]

.

 

[lysanderxiii]

I have heard this and read it various places. No doubt it is correct.
But I always revert to the actual dimensions of the case. The .308 Winchester or 7.62x51mm NATO or T-65 is externally a .30-06 Springfield about a half an inch shorter and internally has a bigger, stronger web.

In 1944 the Army tested commercial 300 Savage cases with M2 ball bullets to see if
The concept was viable. The T65 case was designed from the ground up, but sharing features of the .30-06, 300 Savage, other Mauser based cases.

 

[codytrucker]

.204 Ruger is a necked down 222 magnum.

 

[Archie]

...T65 case was designed from the ground up, but sharing features of the .30-06, 300 Savage, other Mauser based cases.

I worked for the federal government for thirty-two years and saw and heard much not officially released. The phrase "... from the ground up..." is one I've heard before in various places.

Looking at the dimensions reveals the similarities. The biggest change is the web structure to improve use in fully automatic weapons. The second biggest change is the length of the case.

 

[Captcurt]

The .30-03 was the official US Army cartridge for 3 years. I wouldn't call it a prototype. It would have served longer if the lightweight, spritzer trend had occured later. I would absolutely consider it the parent of the .30-06, and it's amazing that the rather conservative Ordnance Department acted as soon as it did.

I have always thought that it was ironic that we had to pay Germany royalties for patent infringement for Spitzer bullets and the 03 Springfield.

 

[Jim Watson]

Well, we quit paying after they sank the Lusitania and nationalized all their holdings here.

 

[Catpop]

The .303 British can be fired in a 30-40 Krag. I know because as a 12 yo kid I did it. Best I can remember, bolt closed a little tight on 303.
Which brings me to a question—- was the 30-40 Krag made just close enough to the .303 to be able to use the .303 ammo in an ammo shortage?

 

[.455_Hunter]

The .303 British can be fired in a 30-40 Krag. I know because as a 12 yo kid I did it. Best I can remember, bolt closed a little tight on 303.
Which brings me to a question—- was the 30-40 Krag made just close enough to the .303 to be able to use the .303 ammo in an ammo shortage?

Given the development cycle of the .303 was about 3-4 years ahead of the .30-40, I suspect there was some influence, but highly doubt the concept of interchangeability was even on the table.

 

[herrwalther]

6mm Flobert. According to most historical accounts it was the first self contained cartridge. So in essence it spawned everything we shoot now.

 

[Roverguy]

The .303 British can be fired in a 30-40 Krag. I know because as a 12 yo kid I did it. Best I can remember, bolt closed a little tight on 303.
Which brings me to a question—- was the 30-40 Krag made just close enough to the .303 to be able to use the .303 ammo in an ammo shortage?

The rim.thickness, overall length, and shoulder angles, not to mention the groove diameter, are different between the two cartridges. Firing .312" minimum bullets ( 303 British) down notoriously tight Krag bores (.308" ) is not to be advised. That may be why the otherwise famously butter smooth Krag bolt "closed a little tight" on 303 brass! Brass is not interchangeable. 303 brass can be formed for use as 30-40 Krag brass.

 

[Jim Watson]

CotW said the .30 Purdey is the .30-40 Krag souped up a bit for use in falling blocks stronger than a Krag Jorgensen.
Strange, it is not in my present copy 12th edition.

 

[CowboyTim]

Wonder where we'd be if they had used the 6.5 x 55 in the Kraig , then adapted it or something like it , maybe a 6.5 x 7.65 x53 Argentine into a 98 Mauser with a turned down bolt handle , 22 or 24 inch barrel and stocked like a 1903 Springfield . The 1903 was meant to be both a cavalry and infantry rifle . I think the whole 1903 and .30 -03 / 06 came from a desire to work around Mausers patent's anyway.

If the government hadn't been too cheap to pay Mauser rights, there would have been US made M98 rifles in 8x57 and we'd have a whole different group of cartridges to argue about.

just think about it, could be PAGES of argument about wether FN, BRNO or Winchester made the best 98...

 

[earlthegoat2]

Here is some background reading to fill in the gaps in this thread.

https://www.outdoorlife.com/article...gin-stories-your-favorite-hunting-cartridges/

As has been said, nearly all rimless rifle ammunition has been developed from the Patrone 88.

 

[Roverguy]

If the government hadn't been too cheap to pay Mauser rights, there would have been US made M98 rifles in 8x57 and we'd have a whole different group of cartridges to argue about.

just think about it, could be PAGES of argument about wether FN, BRNO or Winchester made the best 98...

I wonder. Roosevelt was the driving force behind the abandonment of the Krag rifle and while he may have preferred a U.S. made clone, had the U.S. adopted the G98 rifle, don't you think he would have mandated the 7x57 that he was so impressed with the Spanish having used against him in Cuba?

 

[CowboyTim]

I wonder. Roosevelt was the driving force behind the abandonment of the Krag rifle and while he may have preferred a U.S. made clone, had the U.S. adopted the G98 rifle, don't you think he would have mandated the 7x57 that he was so impressed with the Spanish having used against him in Cuba?

Naw, the military has passed on 7mm's too many times for 30 cals, think they'd stick with a "bigger is better" philosophy...could've really gone off the rails in they had gone all in on the 8x57 and then kept the .318 bore.

 

[codytrucker]

Could of gone with 7.62x57 , of all the different Mauser cartridges I don't think that one was ever done. Most every country seemed to want their own chambering .
If they went with the .318 bore , we would have full power 8mm ammo , and the 8mm rem mag would of been the most popular of the belted magnums!

 

[Roverguy]

A bit of research shows the 30-03 was based off the totally obsolete 30-01 or .30 Ball Cartridge Model of 1901

Just saw this at Rock Island Auctions. Possibly the rifle in which the .30 Ball Cartridge of 1901 might have been used:


https://www.rockislandauction.com/d...us-springfield-model-1901-bolt-action-carbine