Obsolete Rifle Rounds with Very Famous Offspring

[Roverguy]

I am surprised that the .284 Win has not yet been named, the basis of many a wildcat, indeed, among them one of my new favorites, the 6mm-284. The 35-284, 338-284, 6.5-284 and the 25-284 all have a following, though 6.5-284 is probably the best known, a one-time F-Class darling.

 

[Nature Boy]

Not really.

The T65 cartridge case was heavily modified in the rim, body taper, shoulder taper and length before it even became the FAT1 case. Then the FAT1 case when through 2 further variations (FAT1E1 and FAT1E2*) before coming out as the FAT1E3, which we now know as the .308 Winchester.

________
* Although the FAT1E2 was only a paper case, in that it only existed on paper.

Yes, really, and you’re just nitpicking. The 300 Savage is the parent case of what is commercially known as the 308 win.

 

[jmr40]

The 270 is based on 30-03, not 30-06. Splitting hairs I know, but there are minor differences.

The 7X57 is the great granddaddy to many of our most popular cartridges, but I'm not sure I'd call 7X57 obsolete. The USA stretched it a bit and necked it up to make 30-03, which spawned 30-06 and 270. 30-06 was tweaked to make 25-06, 280, 338-06, 35 Whelen and a couple of other less common rounds. Savage then shortened 30-06 to make 300 Savage. Then Winchester tweaked 300 Savage to make 308 which led to 243, 7-08, 338Fed, 260, 358 Win. The 257R and 6.5CM are cousins.

When I 1st saw the 7-08 come out the 1st thing I thought was that we'd come full circle and reinvented the 7X57.

 

[Hesa Hard1]

.303 Brit --------------- > .30-40 Krag.

Pretty much anyway.

"Turdy Army"

 

[mcb]

I am surprised that the .284 Win has not yet been named, the basis of many a wildcat, indeed, among them one of my new favorites, the 6mm-284. The 35-284, 338-284, 6.5-284 and the 25-284 all have a following, though 6.5-284 is probably the best known, a one-time F-Class darling.

284 Win is also the parent case to 450 Bushmaster and 30 Remington AR.

What about 404 Jefferies the parent case to the RUM (Remington Ultra Magnum) series?

 

[edwardware]

The 270 is based on 30-03, not 30-06. Splitting hairs I know, but there are minor differences.

At last! I've been wondering if anyone else noticed. . .

 

[Jim Watson]

The .222 is pretty much obsolete in favor of .223 and several other offshoots.
Interesting that Remington reportedly considered using the .25 Remington case which would have produced a .219 Zipper Rimless but concluded the head was too thin for the pressures intended. I'd have thought it easier to beef up the .25 draw cups than to bring out a whole new head diameter, but Mike Walker didn't.

 

[Riomouse911]

Dan Wesson’s .414 and. 445 Supermags are stretched .41 and .44 magnums, along with the previously mentioned.357 Supermags (aka .357 Maximum), so they’re sorta-kinda offspring but with different cases. The .375 Supermag is a shortened .375 Winchester, so that would make that round more of a direct descendant with a parent case I guess (?). Same for the .348 Win, it’s the parent case of the .500 Linebaugh.

Stay safe.

 

[Hasaf]

The .32 Winchester Self-Loading was the parent cartridge of the .30 carbine.

 

[codytrucker]

284 Win is also the parent case to 450 Bushmaster and 30 Remington AR.

What about 404 Jefferies the parent case to the RUM (Remington Ultra Magnum) series?

.404 Jeffery is the base for a bunch of short, super short , and ultra mags . a .300 ultra mag was the start of my .404 Jeffery model 70 , kind of came full circle.

 

[codytrucker]

Dan Wesson’s .414 and. 445 Supermags are stretched .41 and .44 magnums, along with the previously mentioned.357 Supermags (aka .357 Maximum), so they’re sorta-kinda offspring but with different cases. The .375 Supermag is a shortened .375 Winchester, so that would make that round more of a direct descendant with a parent case I guess (?). Same for the .348 Win, it’s the parent case of the .500 Linebaugh.

Stay safe.

50-110 win . was the base to .348. went from the "big fifty" long way around to the new and improved "big fifty"

 

[JJFitch]

The U'S. Military was looking for a cartridge to give the M4 more punch at close quarters. The team of Army experts came up with the
6.8 mm, SPC II based on an obsolete 30 Remington! I looks like a 5.56 NATO on steroids! The conversion only requires replacing the barrel and bolt and in some cases magazines. It propels the 110-115 projectiles at around 26-27K FPS!

Smiles,

 

[Jim Watson]

Phil Sharpe said the design of the 308 was also influenced by the 7.5 French, not a detailed copy but a similar approach.

I wonder where we would be if we had just paid Mauser for the whole package and issued an 1898 in, say, .30x2 1/4". (7.62x57). I don't think any of the Invented Here stuff amounted to much. A cocking knob, a magazine cutoff, a safety lug that required humping up the bridge, and a replaceable firing pin point have not been said to be of value anyplace I have read.

I think we could have done without the Norwegian Connection, to begin with. We could have had the American designed and made Remington Lee bolt action. Or got in cahoots with Mauser sooner and gone the 91, 93, 98 route sort of like Turkey did.

 

[codytrucker]

Phil Sharpe said the design of the 308 was also influenced by the 7.5 French, not a detailed copy but a similar approach.

I wonder where we would be if we had just paid Mauser for the whole package and issued an 1898 in, say, .30x2 1/4". (7.62x57). I don't think any of the Invented Here stuff amounted to much. A cocking knob, a magazine cutoff, a safety lug that required humping up the bridge, and a replaceable firing pin point have not been said to be of value anyplace I have read.

I think we could have done without the Norwegian Connection, to begin with. We could have had the American designed and made Remington Lee bolt action. Or got in cahoots with Mauser sooner and gone the 91, 93, 98 route sort of like Turkey did.

Wonder where we'd be if they had used the 6.5 x 55 in the Kraig , then adapted it or something like it , maybe a 6.5 x 7.65 x53 Argentine into a 98 Mauser with a turned down bolt handle , 22 or 24 inch barrel and stocked like a 1903 Springfield . The 1903 was meant to be both a cavalry and infantry rifle . I think the whole 1903 and .30 -03 / 06 came from a desire to work around Mausers patent's anyway.

 

[PapaG]

The threads on Cartridges that should (die, live forever, be loved against all reason, be hated unconditionally) forever got me thinking.

Many cartridges spring from interesting family trees, and it has intrigued me how some of the most popular rounds were derived from rounds that are now obsolete, or nearly so.

Several that come immediately to mind (and please correct me where I am mistaken):

38-55 => 30-30
6mm Lee Navy => 22 Swift
30-03 => 30-06 (sort of a stretch since the 30-03 was basically a prototype)
222 Remington Magnum => 223 Remington (Aka 5.56 NATO)
30 TC => 6.5 Creedmoor (I wonder about this since I have also seen the 6.5 CM described as a necked-up 250 Savage AI).

Any others?

Only problem I have here is that the 38-55 and the 30-30, in the 94, would have been introduced at the same time had nickel steel been available. As the 38-55 had been around for years I accept your premise. Actually, add in the 32-40 and 32 Win Spec to the family tree

 

[Hesa Hard1]

Wasn't it something like this:

.38-40 ----> 40G&A ----> 10mm AUTO ----> 40S&W ----> .357Sig

Couldn't do an off-shoot branch below the 10mm, but it would've been:

10mm AUTO ----> 9x25 Dillon.

Also, what about the .41 Action Express? I wouldn't call the .41 Mag obsolete, but wasn't it:

.41 Mag ----> .41 AE ... using a shorter case and rebated rim (9mm diameter)?

 

[Roverguy]

.303 Brit --------------- > .30-40 Krag.

Pretty much anyway.

"Turdy Army"
View attachment 1056144

Certainly the 30-40 appears to have been designed to match or slightly exceed the 303 British. As such, it was the ideological parent case for the 30-49. At the close of the 19th Century, Great Britain was widely viewed as the preeminent military and naval power, so designing a round that was similar to that used by Britain would have made some sense, though less than a decade later, it was apparent that the Mauser K98 and its 8x57 round were superior, giving rise first to the .30-03 and shortly thereafter the .30-06.

However, the 303 British is not the physical parent case of the 30-40, though it can be formed to work in the 30-40 chamber. The 30-40 was the parent case for an early and fairly popular wildcat, the .35 Krag. With corrosive primers a problem in Krag rifles, many were subsequently rebored to .358. And the .25 Krag was a mildly successful woodchuck wildcat.

 

[Random 8]

Phil Sharpe said the design of the 308 was also influenced by the 7.5 French, not a detailed copy but a similar approach.

I wonder where we would be if we had just paid Mauser for the whole package and issued an 1898 in, say, .30x2 1/4". (7.62x57). I don't think any of the Invented Here stuff amounted to much. A cocking knob, a magazine cutoff, a safety lug that required humping up the bridge, and a replaceable firing pin point have not been said to be of value anyplace I have read.

I think we could have done without the Norwegian Connection, to begin with. We could have had the American designed and made Remington Lee bolt action. Or got in cahoots with Mauser sooner and gone the 91, 93, 98 route sort of like Turkey did.

I believe a version of the '89 Swiss Schmidt Ruben was trialed also. That would have been interesting.

 

[zaitcev]

The 7.65 Borchart spawned 7.63 Mauser and .30 Luger, hence 9x19.

 

[Jim Watson]

I believe a version of the '89 Swiss Schmidt Ruben was trialed also. That would have been interesting.

Would it have stood up to trench warfare any better than the Ross straight pull? I doubt it.

 

[desidog]

.44-40 >>> .44 Gamegetter >>> .410 shotgun.

 

[BigBlue 94]

A bit of research shows the 30-03 was based off the totally obsolete 30-01 or .30 Ball Cartridge Model of 1901

 

[Roverguy]

A bit of research shows the 30-03 was based off the totally obsolete 30-01 or .30 Ball Cartridge Model of 1901

Was that an entirely experimental cartridge? Was it envisaged for the Springfield 1903 and then modified in the .30 Model of 1903? Strange designation given that the .30 Government / .30 Army (aka 30-40) was the .30 Ball Cartridge in 1901. Cool discovery but leaves us intrigued!

 

[Archie]

400/375 H&H=>every other belted Magnum ever.

Your Honor, the loyal opposition objects. The .375 H&H is certainly not obsolete. It is certainly correct to say the .375 H&H is the parent (grandparent?) of all the belted magnum cases.

 

[Archie]

the little BB/Cap primer only thingy that led to .22 LR

You are referring to the Flobert round, I presume? Correctamundo!