Why the 870 Express hate?

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Im stuck with a mossberg on duty and cannot stand it!! I miss my 870 on deployment so much more than anything else (except family of course....and a good burger)
 
I bought a 1972 mfg Wingmaster brand new in 1972...smoothest slide-action shotgun I have ever used. I have three 1990's and 2000's Express shotguns that have never had any problems of any kind....rust, ejection, chambering, anything....and I have probably put 5000 shells through each. They just keep on working.
 
*shrugs shoulders*

My own Express has been totally rust free and shoots perfectly. The longer barrel doesn't like Fiocchi rounds after firing and is a jam-O-matic with that ammo. But the Federal and one other brand that I've shot with it were fine. The short 18,5 inch barrel is fine with any of the ammo. So the gun has been 100% reliable, other than the Fiocchi issue, so far over 3 years and about 4 cases or so of play time and trap shooting. And it's not like I baby it. I shoot it and put it away and it's only seen cleaning about twice over all this time. And it's still fine the last time I looked at it. Hell, I've never even dropped the trigger group out for any attention since it just keeps on working with no change in feel.

Having said this I don't store it in conditions you'd call humid by folks that live in certifiably humid areas. So my findings may not reflect what would occur if I were in a harsher environment.
 
Ok, I'm kind of miffed right now.

I bought an 870 express about 5 weeks ago, just to have something to go try out the clays games. Only been out with it twice now, and I clean my guns after each time I shoot them.

I'm reading this thread last night thinking 'wow, this seems kind of a bit extreme'. So I pull my new shotgun out just to take a look.

:fire: :fire: :fire:

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(sorry about the pic, needed slow shutter to get good exposure indoors. Notice the trigger is also totally rusted though)

Its only been sitting in a soft zip case for TWO WEEKS since the last time I cleaned it. That's just psycho, I've never seen anything like it. It wiped right off, and I immediately oiled it down good, but still...
 
I live in a humid climate and haven't experienced any ssues with my six year old Express model. When not shooting I clean and lube it semi-annually.


870_03.jpg
 
"My own Express has been totally rust free and shoots perfectly. The longer barrel doesn't like Fiocchi rounds after firing and is a jam-O-matic with that ammo. But the Federal and one other brand that I've shot with it were fine."

This is the type of Remington mentality I'm talking about on these boards. It's the 'ammo's fault'.

No...your gun is not 100%. It has nothing to do with barrel length. When you swap barrels you are swapping chambers too...one is obviously out of spec. You can continue to use your marginally reliable gun or press Remington to get it fixed...or do the job for them and polish the chamber.

Whiplash...guns are notorious for rusting in padded cases, they trap moisture. Try oiling it and keeping it a safe or leaning it in the corner of a closet may be better for it.
 
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just to post again.... i liked this comment

It's a once bitten twice shy sort of thing. You purchase a new gun (or recommend for your friend to purchase a new gun for home defense) and out of the box it won't cycle any fired hulls then you're less likely to ever recommend that purchase again.

You post on a forum about the problem, and Remington loyalists mark it up to operator error, poor cleaning, cheap hulls, etc...everything but the gun.

IMHO every express should come with a dowel and some steel wool and be labelled a kit gun until it's proven to be a reliable shooter with everything run through it. Or, Remington should like, you know...do their job, and box up a completed project with a smooth chamber in the first place.

Once bitten, twice shy...no hate, just not spending money or recommending others to spend money on green anymore.
Click to expand...

i agree.....no way its ever the guns fault *rollseyes*

mine had problems with the spent shells being lodged in the chamber....every few rounds would lock up completely...sent it to remington and they made it worse! they "polished and reamed the chamber" according to the sheet, but whatever they did made it worse....every round would jam....one jammed so bad i had to hold the fore-end and slam the butt against the ground to get it to rack and eject the shell...tried one more shell after that and it locked up worse again so i returned it to where i bought it with the spent shell still in the chamber

they gave me full price back and i paid the difference and upgraded to a benelli nova....no problems since then!

this is before i sent it to them....Remington made it 10x worse!!

http://s70.photobucket.com/albums/i82/SaleenSS90/?action=view&current=2011-02-26_18-13-51_98.mp4
 
Leaky Waders, that same Fiocchi ammo sticks lightly in my Cowboy Action SxS which has been polished out so that empties from any other brand simply fall out when I tip the barrels up. So in this one case there's no doubt that the Fiocchi is expanding and staying that way moreso than the other shells I've shot. But you do raise a good point that the one chamber is obviously a bit tight right out of the box.

Would I buy another Express? It's not just this thread. I've read lots of others that talk of troubles. I wouldn't buy another as a result. My post in this thread was just to try to balance the scales by showing that not ALL Express' are junk.
 
My experience: when a chamber is reamed or polished or whatever, metal is removed and the ID is increased as a result. This potentially allows the shells fired to expand beyond their elastic stress capability, causing "sticking" or hard extraction. I have only had one shotgun that suffered a tad of "hard extraction" (not a Remington). To solve the problem, I shot two flats of shells through the gun and the problem went away. Now, the same gun is my back-up when bird hunting.
 
Leaky, so you're contending that any shotgun should work with any ammo, whether or not that ammo is in or out of spec?

Number Six here is a WM made in 1955. With both the original Full choke barrel and the new Light Contour barrel it usually wears, it chokes on Gun Clubs as well as those Winchester bulk packs of ill repute.

However, if I use the fired GC hulls in reloaded ammo, they cycle slick as owl spit.

So, does my "Remington Mentality" blind me to the fact that 50 years of using 870s, both mine and the State of MD's with close to zero glitches of any kind is not valid compared to some guys on the Net who say their Expresses are junk?

Sounds to me like your gripe is with makers of out of spec ammo, not Remington.

And does the fact that I've handled and shot 30-40 Expresses in the last three years or so since this came up that have failed to exhibit any propensities for either corrosion or glitching mean anything?

I'll repeat my offer....

Anyone who has an Express he/she is dissatisfied with can meet me in Central MD at PGC Trap and Skeet Center. With prior notification, I'll bring some tools and either fix it for free to your complete satisfaction within 30 minutes or buy it for $150.

Cash.

That's more than you'll get trading it in at a shop.
 
I have one that's actually pretty decent. I bought it three years ago on sort of a whim. In the meantime, the ONLY problems I've had were the action being quite rough (Polished the bolt carrier with some valve grinding compound to lap it in) and I don't like the length of pull. Other than that, she feed great and works reliably. Rust hasn't been a problem.

Last fall, a friend of mine bought his daughter an express in 20guage and it's been nothing but headaches. The chamber has been polished, the bolt and carrier lapped in nice, but this thing still hangs shells up feeding. Not sure what's going on there, but it seems as if quality is erratic. That's something inherent in my opinion to guns that were re engineered to be less expensive like the express was.

For the same money, the Moss 500 has been a generally better value on the guns I've dealt with. Of course, you are going to find shooters that hate those as well.
 
who knew! i've had mine since early 90's bought it for $180. has a genuine walnut stock. always been a fine hunting gun, plus never had a malfuntion...apparently i've been too ignorant to be unhappy.
 
"Leaky, so you're contending that any shotgun should work with any ammo, whether or not that ammo is in or out of spec?"

Yes, a pump should be able to shuck factory ammo. Actually, regardless of the shape of the hull, it could be octagonal with heart shaped brass, if the pump can safely chamber and fire it, then the pump should be able to shuck it. Because the hull will conform to the dimensions of the chamber.

Now if the chamber is geeked up, like has some reverse taper to it, or some ridge or spike in it...then is it the hulls fault?

He basically has two guns. Ok, he really has one gun with two barrels. But in effect two guns, same manufacturer, different result with the same ammo. One barrel is 100%, the other becomes a jammomatic...and it's the ammo's fault?

If the ammo was at fault then most would think that the ammo manufacturer would be blamed by many different brands of guns...not just Remingtons.

If the ammo was at fault then one would think that that the ammo manufacturer would be blamed by all owners of that type gun...not just one's with typical QC issues that require an owner to work on or send back.

In BC's case, it would interesting to measure the OD of the hull after firing from both barrels and see if someone has tinkered with his longer barrel by making it too large and sticking the hull in that regards.

Many guns shoot the 'cheap ammo' good enough to eject...my BPS, SBE, 687, 425, 625, montefeltro, wingmaster, 390 all do.

The only gun that I've seen lock up with ammo...cheap, federal highbrass, and a few others that I don't recall was a newly purchased express by a friend. The gun basically required disassembly after every shot for reloading. I felt bad because I recommended and helped him pick out the gun.

So like I said before, I don't hate expresses...but it's a once bitten twice shy kind of thing.

If you buy a Ford and your neighbor buys a Ford, same model same year....his pulls out of the drive way and works fine everyday, but your's only works when it has superpremium high octane gas everyday. Are you going to purchase the same working man's car next time? Or try something else?

Remington makes an inexpensive product for the working man to shoot. It only makes sense that the frugal buyer would want to shoot the cheapest bulk factory ammo out there. Other guns can do it fine. Why not Remington?
 
Dave McCracken said:
Over the last couple years, I've made it a habit to handle and shoot every Express I've come across at the range. Total, between 25 and 30, almost all 12 gauges. Some had been shot the first time that day.

I've checked the smoothness of the shuck, reliability and ability to hit a few targets.

Zero probs, zero rust. All could have been smoother, and like the little 20 gauge Express here, will improve with use.

As for rust, when the directions in the manual about pre shoot lubing are followed, it seems to be a non issue.

As for sticky extraction, some chambers benefit from a 5 minute polish with 4/0 steel wool and a variable speed drill.

Use of steel based economy grade ammo is not helpful either. Stick to brass bases.

As for MIM extractors, if I have to stick a new one in every 40K rounds, so be it. I expect to replace small parts on a lot of things. My GM gets a new mainspring every 20K. My k frames get tightened up by a decent smith every 5-8K rounds.

Are there problems with Expresses? Sure, but it's confined to a small minority.

Some Expresses just need smarter owners.

I'll repeat an offer I made last year....

If you have an Express that's giving you problems, meet me at PGC Trap and Skeet Center near Beltsville, MD. I'll either fix it within 30 minutes to your satisfaction or buy it for $150 unless it's been both abused and neglected, then $100.

Cash.

That's a better deal than you'll get on a trade in.

Since the offer was first made, I've neither had to fix nor buy any Expresses.....
Click to expand...
I will never have to answer your call because I have a 1982 Wingmaster that is like a Timex it takes a licking and keeps on ticking. I grew up in the Arkansas Delta Duck Hunting and I have seen several Express turn into rust buckets in my boat in a single season. Yet my 870 Wingmaster still has good bluing and looks great when I put her Wood Stocks back on her. Nearly 30 years of wet hunting and she is rust free because I clean it daily after every hunt and wipe it down 2 times a day with a old cotton sock soaked in WD-40. The Only Express I have seen hold up was sprayed daily with Barstoil that Black Powder folks swear by. They are simply cheaper made clones of the Orginal.
 
You've got me thinking about this now. I'm going to pull out the two barrels and do some measuring. More to come.


It's also likely the nature of the game that the big majority that have Express models which are fine are not posting here or don't belong to THR or any other forum. Instead they just go out and hunt or practice with their express and the gun just works. If it did give problems they likely took the gun back to the store who made it better. After all, the cheapness of the Express is the sort of thing that will appeal to the casual shooter that hunts a few ducks once a year and only practices enough to ensure the gun is still working and that they can actually hit something. Such a person likely just can't justify the higher cost of the fancy stuff. And they aren't enthusiastic enough to post stuff here.

After all, if even 5% of the Express guns needed warranty work by Remington that cuts into their profits a lot. At some point it's cheaper for them to smarten up the production tolerances to produce gun which don't need to come back to them for profit eating repairs. So it's likely that the complaints we are reading about on forums such as this represent a rather small number of the guns out there.
 
It is so sad to me to read these 4 pages and realize that IF Remington would spend 5-10 minutes of time polishing the barrel chamber properly they would solve 50% of the complaints on this and other boards. If I needed buy an express then I would take it home and Dura Coat it ASAP.
 
Addressing the rust issue brought up by Deltaboy and others. I don't doubt that the finish used on the Express models is not the best. I've seen that it's too pourous and as a result will hold water if it's not oiled on a regular basis.

But consider again that Express models are the sort of gun that casual shooters buy because they can't justify a nicer gun for the amount they shoot it. As such they likely tend to get ignored. Meanwhile by Deltaboy's own admission his Wingmaster gets cleaned after each day out as well as a mid day wipe down with a WD40 rag. If an Express gun was treated the same way it too would never rust. In that case the pourous finish would act as a sponge to hold the oil so it wasn't wiped away so easily. The true reason for any rusting would appear to be neglect by the owner who, due to ignorance or laziness, doesn't treat their "cheap" gun with the same respect and attention as Deltaboy treats his beloved Wingmaster. So is that the gun's fault or the owner's?
 
I say a little of both Remmy needs to put a better finish own or a better job education folks on the needs of the gun. I learned my wet gun cleaning routine from a great uncle who's Whinny Model 12 looked pert near new and it was over 45 years old and spent many days in a jon boat on the White River or in some flooded timber or swamps.
 
I -LOVE- my 870!

(Uploaded pic in "Lets see your BOOM BOOM Sticks" forum)

This was my first ever firearm purchase. I had gone to my fave gun shop and they have 40+ shotguns. I wanted one for home defense, so anything over 18.5" was off my list. Anything with less than 2rd capacity was off. And I wanted a brand I had heard of. The highly recommended Binelli (sp?) I had shot felt heavy and unweildy, it was also spendy. The Mossberg 500 I had shot, belonged to a friend and the action seized during a camping trip rendering the gun useless for the remainder of our 5 day trip.

The 870 I bought was a tactical config with a parkerized OD green finish, which might explain why mine did not rust. It also came with a mag extension (7+1), poly grip w/ the R3 recoil pad and a police pistol grip rear stock. I paid $375 (ballpark) for it and it was worth every penny. There were only 2 sent to this store, when I brought this to the counter, the man told me he had set the other one aside for himself. (SN: AB000xxx)

6 years later and my gun as gotten a 6 shot sidesaddle, Surefire forestock light and a carry strap. I plan to swap the end to end strap for a CQB strap, so it does not block the light. Other than that its a perfect gun.

This is my 2nd most fired weapon, and the only one I expose to extreme elements. I live in Western Washington so it sees a LOT of rain. It goes with me every time I go camping or wheeling. Its bounced around in the back of my truck and been covered in mud. Still no chipping or obvious scratches. Still no rust, still fires like a dream. And in the event of home invasion, this IS the go-to gun.

Its has never FTF for me, the only time I've seen it do so was when my xgf failed to fully cycle the slide. Most jammed ammo, I assume, stems from that. I shoot the cheapest ammo I can find when I plink. I've shot heavy slugs and buckshot with regularity, since thats my HD ammo (PRACTICE!)

My ONLY compaint is the R3 pad, and its a small one. After several years of being propped up in the corner behind my bed, the pad has begun to soften. It tends to pick up fuzzies from the carpet and dog hair. I solved this by putting it in a crown royal bag. I'm not going to take the pad off as it does WONDERS for felt recoil. My bro's 102 lb. wife can fire slugs and buckshot and not hurt her shoulder.

This gun has killed both animals I've ever shot at. Just 2 field mice so far, and it left very little evidence.
 
Again...from Dave's own post. #85...

"Number Six here is a WM made in 1955. With both the original Full choke barrel and the new Light Contour barrel it usually wears, it chokes on Gun Clubs as well as those Winchester bulk packs of ill repute.

However, if I use the fired GC hulls in reloaded ammo, they cycle slick as owl spit."

So...other people seem to be able to cycle that GC fired hulls through some kind of shotgun...but yours won't...just the reloads, why? Are the Remington match grade chambers so tight in their dimensions that they need extra special grade shotgun hulls to work?

Again...you post your offer "Anyone who has an Express he/she is dissatisfied with can meet me in Central MD at PGC Trap and Skeet Center. With prior notification, I'll bring some tools and either fix it for free to your complete satisfaction within 30 minutes or buy it for $150."

But you post that your guns themselves will not shoot hulls that other shotguns can shoot. I really don't think it's a bad hull thing. It may be several things, but I would tend to look in a green and yellow box for the culprit before I lambasted ammo makers that cycle in others shotguns.
 
I have a notion as to the rusting problem. I gotta wonder if Remington has gone to a single pass/dip cold blue to save money. When I cold blue a project it gets three passes, with neutralizing in hot water between applications. So far everything I've done seems to be holding up pretty well, but I do oil everything. If you do a single pass and don't fully neutralize the bluing solution it'll continue to "work", and the first time it gets wet it rusts.
 
Leaky, they cycle perfectly after being resized.

IOW, they're off spec for those chambers.

Racem, one explanation matches that. Remington was leaving some bluing salts on the metal, which is why the manual emphasizes covering the metal with Remoil and letting it soak in.
 
My grandpa bought a express 20 gauge probably 20 years ago or more. still looks brand new. not a spot of rust. I couldnt believe this thread when i read it. Got every choke you can buy for it. More rounds shot through that gun than you can count. I own a wingmaster myself and I will say they are nicer but the express is a perfect hunting gun. I wouldnt be afraid to buy one. Its a rabbit slaying squirrel busting machine!
 
I went to ACADEMY SPORTS to check out the 50 or so shotguns they got sitting on the rack that you can play with.......so there I am........checking out the BENELLI's.....
MOSSBERG's and REMINGTON's......I have no favorites at this point! :cool:

I'm about to buy my first shotgun for HD so I'm pretty clueless about these until I did my research, online, of course! :uhoh:

Of ALL the shotguns sitting on the racks, guess which had RUST??? I was shocked to see 6 REMINGTON's with RUST! :what:
I axed the sales guy about it, he sez, "oh, it's just surface rust, cleans right up!" :banghead:

I know REMINGTON has sold 10 million guns, but DAMN.....
If I owned the company I would resolve THAT issue PRONTO! :mad:
 
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