Why weren't lever action shotguns more popular?

[Gunstore Commando]

The lever action was, of course, *the* American rifle from like the Civil War until after WWI (at least). So why weren't lever action shotguns more popular? The popularity of lever action rifles should have been a huge driver to adoption of lever action shotguns.

Instead, the number of lever action shotguns ever produced can't be anything more than a tiny percentage of the number of pump guns. Gosh, there's only a handful of different models of lever action shotguns ever made.

What gives?

 

[Croyance]

I don't know if it is the historical reason, but it seems like the pump offers some advantages:
It lets you keep your primary hand in place.
The pump action makes it easier to keep on target while chambering a fresh round. Your off-hand even stays on the same plane as the movement of your target. If you are coming from side-by-sides, where you can absolutely stay on target and track movement, you would pick the one that lets you do the same, I'm thinking.

If the Lightning had a stronger mechanism, I wonder how popular lever actions would have been instead.

 

[Vex]

It seems that when he lever action Winchester Model 1887 was first created, it was almost doomed from birth. The creator, John Browning, didn't like the idea and preferred a pump action instead, and therefore the marketing and hype wasn't nearly as relentless as the Model 1893 pump slide action and the later Model 1897. The problem was inherent in the design of the lever action cycling mechanism... it just wasn't up the the task of handling the high powered 12 gauge. Furthermore, the shotgun ammunition of the time was extremely dirty and was prone to clogging up complex mechanisms inside the receiver. The 16 gauge lever action shotgun, on the other hand, was a fond companion of many farmers who wanted something that was relatively inexpensive, and it probably was just as popular as a bolt action shotgun... the rarity of the 16 gauge probably led to it's demise, however.

I don't think the actual usage of the lever action versus a slide action really was the culprit. Most people I know, including myself, prefer rapid fire of a lever action over a slide action, but then again it comes down to personal taste and technique.

If you want a lever action shotgun, I believe Norinco still makes them. Of course, we know why this isn't popular... it's an American firearm made in China, something that isn't looked kindly upon in this country.

You can still find a few .410 lever action shotguns around, and they're still being produced to this day, but why would you want one? Even though .410 has it's usefulness on a ranch or in the bush, it's really not a viable choice for much else.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Peruse the thread at
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=195644 , perhaps that will help.

lpl/nc

 

[hillbilly]

At a local gun store there are, side-by-side in the rack, a Norinco 1897 pump and a Norinco 1887 lever 12 gauge.

All I had to do to answer this question for myself was pick up each piece, shoulder it, and try to work the action.

The 1887 is bulky, awkward, clunky, and impossible for me to keep pointed at a target while I cycle the action.

The 1897 is exactly the opposite.

hillbilly

 

[toivo]

The pump action makes it easier to keep on target while chambering a fresh round.

Maybe so, but then why didn't pump rifles put lever rifles out of business?

If you want a lever action shotgun, I believe Norinco still makes them.

So does Winchester, at least for the time being: 9410.

(Looks like they might be on the way out, too, though. Case-colored special model seems to be the kiss of death.)

More info here.

 

[ArmedBear]

Some people still like the 1897 for trapshooting, that's how good the balance is. That's pretty impressive for something designed so long ago, given all we've learned about design since then. So the superiority of the gun itself (and Marlin's similar competition) had something to do with it.

But consider the uses of a shotgun vs. a rifle.

A shotgun is made for shooting at moving targets, and a good pump action allows the shooter to continue a smooth swing while shooting multiple shots. That's why pump shotgun manufacturers brag about making "ball-bearing pump", the "smoothest pump", the "fastest pump". The slight loss in inherent accuracy caused by a moving foreend isn't an issue with a shotgun.

"Modern blunderbusses" like the original "riot gun" and "trench gun" and their successors are all based on hunting designs, so they use the same actions. Pumps also allow rapid defensive shooting of multiple rounds with a short shotgun, for the same reasons, even though a smooth swing isn't important like it is if you're shooting at quail or rabbits.

A rifle, however, is made for long-range shooting. A solid foreend, tightly attached to the barrel, is desirable because it makes for a more accurate gun than a foreend that moves. A rifle cartridge takes more force to lock and eject than a shotgun shell, so a lever has an advantage because it offers leverage. (Newer designs that combine internals similar to a bolt action with the pump -- 7600 -- or lever -- BLR -- didn't exist back in the 1800s.) For close-range shooting, the lever gun allows accuracy for a slow, deliberate shot at a deer, but also some quick followups or rapid fire for defensive use.

 

[hillbilly]

Here's why the pump rifle didn't replace the lever.

The Colt Lightning had a weak linkage that broke frequently. That caused pump rifles to be viewed as no good.

By the time the fixes were in, thanks to advances in metallurgy and machining, the bad reputation of the Colt Lightning was established, and time had simply moved on.

Plus, before anyone else cranked out pump rifles, either they would have to buy the rights from Colt, or the Colt patent would have to expire, or they would have to come up with a new way of making a pump rifle.

Now, years later, Remington did make the model 7600 pump in a variety of calibers. In fact, you can still find these all over the place.

But by the time somebody besides Colt was making a quality pump rifle, there were just a lot more options for handy, repeating rifles that were better even than pumps, even better than levers........The Mauser brothers' bolt rifle......the various semi-autos......by the time the technology existed to make the pump rifle really workable, both the pump and the lever rifle had been passed up by even better technologies.

hillbilly

 

[Croyance]

The creator, John Browning, didn't like the idea and preferred a pump action instead, and therefore the marketing and hype wasn't nearly as relentless as the Model 1893 pump slide action and the later Model 1897. The problem was inherent in the design of the lever action cycling mechanism... it just wasn't up the the task of handling the high powered 12 gauge.

At the time, was the gauge really high powered? From what little I have read, the modern 12 gauge (not magnum) is about as powerful as the black powder 10 gauge loads. The damascus shotgun barrels of the time were sufficient to contain the pressures and I'm told a modern 12 gauge shell is simply too much.
Plus, wasn't there a .45-70 lever action a couple decades earlier? What are the relative pressures?
Was Browning, though a prolific firearms designer, making marketing decisions? I thought that was left up to the companies who bought his designs.

ArmedBear brings up good points. The use of the rifle is different. Even with a quick follow-up shot, the aiming is more deliberate.

 

[ArmedBear]

Other factors...

Lever guns are compact and light. Rifle barrels are skinny. This doesn't allow for much steel on a pump rifle meant to compete with them. Note that the one significant rifle-cartridge pump gun still on the market, the Remington 7600, is designed as a cheaper, lower-maintenance, reliable alternative to large semiautos, and as a rapid-fire alternative to bolt guns, so its heft isn't a handicap in the marketplace. It was never meant to compete directly with lever guns; it was designed for larger cartridges. Currently, it does compete with the BLR, which is available in even more powerful chamberings than the 7600, but also costs a lot more.

Shotgun barrels are fat, and shotgun receivers are fat. Their relatively light weight comes more from the fact that barrels and receivers have a lot of air space in them. This allows for a much stronger pump mechanism without making the gun too bulky -- all larger-gauge multi-shot shotguns have a bit of bulk to them; an all-steel 870 is actually lighter than a typical double gun with the same barrel length, and the foreend is no more bulky than the foreend on a trim over-and-under.

.22 rimfire pump rifles were popular and seem to be regaining popularity; it doesn't take much force to eject a .22, so simple and durable pump mechanisms are not a problem. Of course, the fact that .22LR autoloaders are relatively easy and cheap to produce also led to the decline of the pump .22, just as larger autoloaders took the spotlight off of larger-caliber pump rifles for rapid fire.

 

[9mmMike]

But consider the uses of a shotgun vs. a rifle.

A shotgun is made for shooting at moving targets, and a good pump action allows the shooter to continue a smooth swing while shooting multiple shots. That's why pump shotgun manufacturers brag about making "ball-bearing pump", the "smoothest pump", the "fastest pump". The slight loss in inherent accuracy caused by a moving foreend isn't an issue with a shotgun.

"Modern blunderbusses" like the original "riot gun" and "trench gun" and their successors are all based on hunting designs, so they use the same actions. Pumps also allow rapid defensive shooting of multiple rounds with a short shotgun, for the same reasons, even though a smooth swing isn't important like it is if you're shooting at quail or rabbits.

A rifle, however, is made for long-range shooting. A solid foreend, tightly attached to the barrel, is desirable because it makes for a more accurate gun than a foreend that moves. A rifle cartridge takes more force to lock and eject than a shotgun shell, so a lever has an advantage because it offers leverage. (Newer designs that combine internals similar to a bolt action with the pump -- 7600 -- or lever -- BLR -- didn't exist back in the 1800s.) For close-range shooting, the lever gun allows accuracy for a slow, deliberate shot at a deer, but also some quick followups or rapid fire for defensive use.

Good reply.

 

[toivo]

So it sounds like a combination of technical and historical reasons. Great thread, lots of good info.

Anybody want to weigh in on the 9410? I've never fired one, but I like the idea. It seems like it would be a great "farm" gun.

I see that the 7600 is available in a LE model now--7615?--as an alternative to patrol shotguns. Interesting idea--my town just had a controversy where the PD wanted to go to with AR15s in the patrol cars instead of the old Rem 870 shotguns. The dreaded "assault weapon" phrase came up when the town board had their public hearings. The 7615 would take away some of that "fear factor" and wouldn't require a lot of retraining of officers who have trained on the shotguns. In the end they went with the ARs anyway--I think they got a Homeland Security grant to cover the cost of equipment and training. Probably just as well.

 

[ArmedBear]

I have never shot a 9410; I've never seen one AFAIK.

The problems with the gun are several.

They are a good snap-shooting gun, probably, since they're based on a classic quick-acquisition rifle. But they have rifle sights, which are a liability on a shotgun. They just slow you down. They have skinny buttstocks, which is great for a saddle carbine, but no good on a shotgun used for shooting at anything moving. They don't swing like they should. That sums up why shotgunners aren't enamored with them.

They are expensive, for a farm shotgun, where inexpensive, reliable, simple single shots have always been popular. They'd be good for shooting gophers in the garden (if you think you're John Wayne while doing it ) but a 10/22 will do the job for a lot cheaper, without getting so much lead in the vegetables. And if you are shooting at pest birds like starlings, you probably want a wingshooting gun, with a bead or rib and bead, not rifle sights, and a shotgun-style stock. If you're shooting at crows, you want something bigger.

Both Winchester and Marlin have discontinued their .410 lever guns, so it seems that the market wasn't begging for the things.

If you really want a rat shooter, this is interesting. Remington's smallest pump shotgun, like a light 870 that holds 15 .22LR shotshells. It was a limited run; a few might still be around.

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/special_runs/2004/model_572_BDL_smooth_bore.asp

 

[toivo]

I have a Rem 572, but it's not a smoothbore. The smoothbore looks like a nice gun, but they aren't cheap either. On the used/NOS market, they're up there with the 9410 in price. (The regular 9410, not that special case-colored one they're flogging now.)

Consensus seems to be that lever shotguns are a bad solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Pumps rule?

 

[ArmedBear]

The 9410 does have a purpose, IMHO. It's just not a purpose I can afford to indulge.

Hand-thrown clays are more fun to plink at than stationary objects, at least once you get a bit jaded on the initial thrill of just blasting lead around. A few large flats of expired eggs are a lot of fun with a .22, but moving targets are just so much better.

And lever guns are fun to plink with.

So, if you already have more guns than you can count, you have a lot of money to spend on a dedicated plinker rifle with little practical purpose, you love lever guns, and you don't mind the silly price of .410 ammunition for plinking, the 9410 is a great little toy.

For a lot less money, you can get a couple of spring traps, an 870 Express in 12 or 20, and have even more fun with cheaper ammo. But the gun won't remind you of John Wayne, and it will recoil more.

 

[ArmedBear]

I just handled an older 572 at the shop. You're right; they're expensive. Good functional condition, but well-used, for $279. But they're really, really nice for some reason. It's hard to put a finger on it. Maybe it's the machined-steel receiver, and the fact that it feels like a small Wingmaster. If I wasn't already wanting to SELL an extra .22 rifle...

Part of me still wanted it, but I was buying another Remington project gun and picked up an Enfield 1-3 for $100 while I was at it, so I passed on the Fieldmaster for now.

 

[toivo]

Armed Bear, if that was a smoothbore 572, or one of the BDL deluxes in .22lr, that's not such a bad price. You can pick up an older non-deluxe .22lr for under $200 if you look around, but smoothbores and the BDLs are pricey.

 

[GRP]

They had SXS's, better pointing, better swinging easier to load and safer to carry, same is true today.

 

[chugcatsts01]

I am going to by a lever action shotgun. My freind and ex-Veitnam GUNSMITH recommends the 12GA NORINCO. He considers it the most intelligent choice. Any body out there have an opinion?

 

[GunsBeerFreedom]

Personally I love the replica 1887 from Norinco. It balances very nicely for me, as well as points and swings naturally. Though I will admit the action is slower than a pump, it's not by much (unless you try to 'baby' the lever).

 

[jmr40]

Because they were never used in the old Western movies made from the 1930's to the present. The lever action rifles would have never been so popular had it not been for Hollywood.

 

[Al LaVodka]

I thought bolt-actions were the American gun -- where are all these shotguns over even levers?

Yes, I am familiar with them...

Al

 

[oneounceload]

A shotgun is made for shooting at moving targets, and a good pump action allows the shooter to continue a smooth swing while shooting multiple shots

That's some wishful thinking at its best - compared to a SxS or O/U, a pump isn't even close to being as smooth on the swing for a second shot at a moving target - working that pump action tends to pull the gun off line, whereas the other two actions do not have that issue.


Levers can be fun though - one friend had purchased the Winchester 410 lever gun when it came out - scared the hell out of the trap kid who thought he was shooting a 30-30 from high house station one.......... this guy loved it for Western dove hunting........I found the balance and handling issues too much for me personally to do well, but the owner was a crack shot with it.

 

[JNewell]

I think the 9410 had two strikes against it. First, they were very slow to bring out a model with tubes, which is a marketing minus today. Second, as a matter of physical limitations, it won't feed 3" shells, which I think also cooled people's jets a bit. The sights are also an issue. The Marbles circular rear sight would have been nearly perfect for this gun, but AFAIK it wasn't introduced until after the NH plant had closed.

 

[Zack]

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=176218592

I like this little shotgun. Neat!!

Made in China...