Will 40 S&W ever meet accuracy expectations of 45 acp in 1911? Why?Why not ?

[MASTARBLASTER]

I will state up front that I do not have a horse in this race in terms of my handgun, philosophy of use. Both rounds have proven effective historically in the pacification of predators that if not stopped, DRT, would be a grave threat to life and liberty. I raise the issue after reading a 5 plus year old post from an often read and highly respected contributor (P.M.E.) here on THR, who had reported that after extensive load development and match grade pistol upgrades he was not able to get his 40 S&W to shoot groups less than approx. 2.5"- 3" @ 15- 25 yards or thereabouts. Having read,recalled and reflected on said posters responses and extensive firearm collection that I have perused over the years, I pondered that such a shooter and those of similar school of thought and shooting/reloading experience have such high expectations for the relatively "new" caliber in comparison to the highy tuned 1911, 45 acp platform and thusly have questions about the inherent inaccuracy of the 40 S&W.
Below is a review on the 40 S&W that appeared in HANDGUNS 94" when the .40 was less than 5 years old! The question discussed in the article wa as it is in recent times, IS THE 40.S&W INACCURATE ?"

 

[Walt Sherrill]

I found nothing to read at my leisure... maybe the link isn't working?

 

[OilyPablo]

Such comparisons make less sense than the pdfs and jpgs of crusty old magazines. My .40SW carbine is more accurate than my 1911's. My .45ACP Carbine is more accurate than my .40SW pistols. I know I am being a bit silly . But it's 2015 and I know there are .40SW 1911's every bit as accurate as 45ACP 1911's.

 

[45_auto]

If you're bored and have a large fortune that you'd like to turn into a small fortune, you could scientifically test the hypothesis that the .40 S&W is not as "inherently" accurate as the .45 ACP.

Or you could save a bunch of money and just believe some of us old curmudgeons when we tell you what you would discover:

Some .40's are more accurate than some .45's. Some 45's are more accurate than some .40's. Some loads in some 40's are more accurate than some loads in some .45's. Some loads in some .45's are more accurate than some loads in some .40's. But in the real world it doesn't matter because either one is more accurate than the shooter is capable of.

 

[wrdwrght]

But in the real world it doesn't matter because either one is more accurate than the shooter is capable of.

Half the traffic on gun forums would cease if we could all agree on this one fact! Wouldn't that be nice?

 

[mavracer]

But in the real world it doesn't matter because either one is more accurate than the shooter is capable of.

Just like any generalization this to is wrong sometimes. I have guns that won't shoot 4" groups from a ransom rest and yet I have guns that I can shoot 3" groups off hand with.
one problem is too many hear "no as accurate" and to them this means "inaccurate" and they ain't the same thing.
2" groups at 25 are accurate and accurate enough that most shooters won't ever tap that potential. but 1.5" groups at 50 are still more accurate and some shooters "can shoot well enough to appreciate the difference.
I won't say you can't do 1.5" at 50 yards with a 40 but I know it's a lot harder than it is with a 45.

 

[Drail]

Most of the accuracy in handguns is in the fitting tolerances of the gun and the level of precision of the barrel - not the cartridge. Sure, it can be done but handguns like everything else Americans consume are built to a price point. If you want fine accuracy you won't get it from mass production. You'll have to go to Bill Wilson or Les Baer or Ed Brown. Every part starts out oversized and is filed, stoned, or turned to a perfect fit in one frame.

 

[wrdwrght]

If you want fine accuracy you won't get it from mass production.

And if we agreed on this fact, traffic on gun forums would be further reduced!

I couldn't hit the broadside of a barn with my particular M&P40c, perhaps because of fitting tolerances, and sold it.

 

[bikerdoc]

This is a twist on the classic vs thread that can not solve anything and leads to arguing.

Since the op does not have a calber in this discussion and does nothing more than present an old article for discusion I question the value of this thread.

Shoot what you like and shoot best, life is too short to argue.

 

[MASTARBLASTER]

I do too "appreciate " accuracy in aim

QUOTE from MAVRACER
"
Just like any generalization this to is wrong sometimes. I have guns that won't shoot 4" groups from a ransom rest and yet I have guns that I can shoot 3" groups off hand with.
groups at 25 are accurate and accurate enough that most shooters won't ever tap that potential. but 1.5" groups at 50 are still more accurate and some shooters "can shoot one problem is too many hear "no as accurate" and to them this means "inaccurate" and they ain't the same thing.
2" gr well enough to appreciate the difference.
I won't say you can't do 1.5" at 50 yards with a 40 but I know it's a lot harder than it is with a 45.
__________________
rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
INTEGRITY- the ability to do the right thing even when no one will know. "






From a casual overview of some of the responses, your reply stands out as being in line with my intended aim which is to discern by cordial discussion among more experienced advocates of firearms , that ones expectation for accuracy from the 40 S&W, will often times not meet the experienced results from shooting 45 acp in a 1911 platform. The 1911 has been fine tuned with over 100 years of advancement in firearms related technologies, metallurgy, powders and even shooting skills. The aim is to appreciate this fact in comparison to ones expectation for increased accuracy from the 40 S&W. Your post expressed this idea quite on point, which is a nuance of distinction between accuracy and precision, in expressing ones stated aim !

 

[sgt127]

"Most" Service style handguns of any caliber are inherently more accurate than "Most" shooters.

"Most" shooters are unable to shoot well enough to determine if a particular handgun, or cartridge, is truly more accurate than another.

And, I say that runs true from a box stock S&W model 10 right through a Wilson Master Grade 1911.

Any specific manufacturer can produce a lemon that is just inherently inaccurate in any caliber.

I think the .40 is plenty accurate and I can shoot a better than 2.5-3" group at 15 yards all day long with a factory gun.

 

[243winxb]

Why the .40 S&W?

Why the .40 S&W http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2013/3/5/the-40-sw/ The American Rifleman does testing on firearms. Look up the 40. Heres some 9mm, http://s338.photobucket.com/user/joe1944usa/slideshow/FirearmsReloading102/9MM%20Accuracy

 

[csa77]

SVI Infinity builds 1911/2011 in 40S&W that do 1.5 inches at 50 yards. they cost 4 to 5k and take 18 months to build but they make them.

 

[MASTARBLASTER]

Improved link, HTML not 1911

I found nothing to read at my leisure... maybe the link isn't working?

Here is an improved image of the introduction of the article I first read over 20 years ago about the accuracy issues of the 40 S&W. It was also the first time I read about the "FBI MIAMI SHOOTOUT" and covers the development of the .40 S&W from the 10mm.
( Note aside that although I do not have a horse in this race, concerning accuracy, I DO HAVE HORSES IN THE sTABLE READY TO RUN !
/storage/emulated/0/S Note Export/Note057215_5_0.jpg

 

[george burns]

It is explained best here,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuiePszwaho

 

[9mmepiphany]

OP I removed your earlier failed attempts to post the image and left the last one

 

[Jim K]

Maybe the .40 S&W is simply inaccurate, and can't be made to shoot. But it is today a police round; it is not used in any serious competition and isn't likely to be. In contrast, as of now, uncounted millions of dollars have been spent over 104 years to make the 1911, its clones and copies, and the .45 ACP into a match winning combination. No other handgun cartridge in the world, with the possible exceptions of the .22 LR and .38 Special, has ever had so much time and effort devoted to making it shoot well.

When the .40 S&W and guns that chamber it are that old, and have been used for almost a century in some of the toughest match competition in the world, check back and we will see how it looks then.

Jim

 

[CornCod]

The .40S&W was designed for a very practical law enforcement purpose and it meets that purpose.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

... it is not used in any serious competition and isn't likely to be. In contrast, as of now, uncounted millions of dollars have been spent over 104 years to make the 1911, its clones and copies, and the .45 ACP into a match winning combination.

Not used in Bullseye competition, perhaps, but there are a lot of .40s used in USPSA and IPSC. And there, high capacity is a critical factor. And while it might be argued that accuracy isn't as important as speed in those venues -- its still a big part of the what it takes to win... You can't shoot fast enough to make up for a lot of misses...

 

[LiveLife]

Depends on who you ask.

20 years ago, I switched my USPSA match caliber from 9mm/45ACP to 40S&W to readily meet major power factor shooting limited division and have the option of shooting mild recoil minor PF loads for production

Many shooters told me the 40S&W was inherently inaccurate than 45ACP and the snappier recoil was not a benefit compared to the 9mm.

To me, shooting 180 gr bullet at major PF with increased capacity was a plus compared to 45ACP and shooting 155/165 gr bullet at minor PF with similar recoil was another plus compared to 9mm. I shot a lot for practice between matches and using hotter loaded 9mm (probably +P) and 40-9 conversion barrels in my two Glock 22s saved on cost. For me, it was best of both worlds with benefits.

What about accuracy?

My shooting/reloading mentor was a bullseye match shooter and I assimilated many shooting/reloading tips for fast action pistol USPSA match. I too found my Glock 22s not as accurate as my Norinco 1911 heavily fortified with Wilson Combat parts (my mentor had me hand fit all the parts) or the Glock 17 but it was not due to caliber rather refinement of match loads.

Since tried and true match loads for 45ACP and 9mm were readily available, it was easier to start off with "known accurate" match loads while many were still developing their 40S&W loads. With this handicap, obviously most shooters would produce greater accuracy from 45/9 pistols and perpetuate the myth that 40S&W was not inherently accurate. If everyone jumped off the cliff, it would only make sense to do the same, right?

I have shot a lot of 40S&W loads the past 20 years (several hundred thousand rounds) using jacketed/plated/moly/lead/coated lead bullets and like 9/45 calibers, accuracy depends on the sum of components used. Right bullet and powder/charge combination will produce accuracy, like any other caliber.

It is easy to blame the caliber for not producing accuracy, especially if you are not accustomed to the snappier recoil coming from 9/45 that produce relatively less snappy recoil. My sister who tried different calibers and pistols selected 40S&W and M&P for her match caliber/pistol and is outshooting most male shooters who cautioned her against shooting snappy 40S&W, including her husband who likes 45ACP and 1911.

When a fellow THR member who wanted to shoot 40S&W as match caliber had trouble obtaining accuracy, I suggested using longer than SAAMI max OAL/COL to reduce high pressure gas leakage around the bullet for more consistent chamber pressures and his accuracy improved - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9363753#post9363753

Fast forward 20 years and how is accuracy of 40S&W loads compared to 9/45 loads? Comparable.

As shown on comparison target pictures below, 2" at 25 yards would be considered accurate by most shooters - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9878749#post9878749

9mm loads with RMR HM bullets and WST/BE-86 powder with G22/KKM barrel

40S&W loads with RMR HM bullets with Herco/BE-86 powder with G22 loaded longer than SAAMI max length

45ACP loads with MBC 200 gr SWC with Red Dot/Promo powder with Sig 1911

Smallest 40S&W 5 round shot group witnessed by fellow THR member - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9646469#post9646469

So if you ask me if 40S&W will ever meet accuracy expectation of 45ACP in 1911, I will say it is plenty accurate in Glock 22 and should do even better in 1911 platform.

 

[MASTARBLASTER]

40 S&W Double Taps Cause Double Takes, (Did I see that group size ?)

qoute from bds
My shooting/reloading mentor was a bullseye match shooter and I assimilated many shooting/reloading tips for fast action pistol USPSA match. I too found my Glock 22s not as accurate as my Norinco 1911 heavily fortified with Wilson Combat parts (my mentor had me hand fit all the parts) or the Glock 17 but it was not due to caliber rather refinement of match loads.

Since tried and true match loads for 45ACP and 9mm were readily available, it was easier to start off with "known accurate" match loads while many were still developing their 40S&W loads. With this handicap, obviously most shooters would produce greater accuracy from 45/9 pistols and perpetuate the myth that 40S&W was not inherently accurate. If everyone jumped off the cliff, it would only make sense to do the same, right?

My sister who tried different calibers and pistols selected 40S&W and M&P for her match caliber/pistol and is outshooting most male shooters who cautioned her against shooting snappy 40S&W, including her husband who likes 45ACP and 1911.


Acccuracy depends on the sum of components used. Right bullet and powder/charge combination will produce accuracy, like any other caliber.
It is easy to blame the caliber for not producing accuracy, especially if you are not accIt is I have shot a lot of 40S&W loads the past 20 years (several hundred thousand rounds) using jacketed/plated/moly/lead/coated lead bullets and like 9/45 calibers, accustomed to the snappier recoil coming from 9/45 that produce relatively less snappy recoil. M


I patiently read your response the first time and thought to myself , "well written " and then I read it again after a short pause to scan for details and noted a point or more on reloading 40 S&W for increasing accuracy by exceeding SAAMI specs for OAL ( which prior to this post I would not even consider in my relatively limited reloading experience). I noted as well the benefit in boosting shooting confidence alone, not considering practical applications of having a Bullseye match shooter as a shooting/reloading mentor. Prior to the internet and the community of THR, I relied on reading books/mags to fortify my store of experience, thus the enduring personal value of well worn 20 year old gun mags as cited. This rich reading experience was as an appetizer to the banquet provided by the annotated pics ! I scanned those as well several times, scrolling up and down and noted that in most 40 S&W groups you have at least 2 touching, and a few 3 "leaf" clovers.
Your shooting skills demonstrate that the 40S&W can indeed be accurate to the point of sheer amazement !

 

[MrBorland]

Below are 3 consecutive sub-3" 25 yard groups I shot (unsupported) with my M&P40 on my first range trip with it. The ammo were my initial loads I slapped together for this range trip.

Given that these were the first shots from a new-to-me factory stock striker-fired polymer gun, and the loads weren't optimized in any way, I don't see why the .40S&W cartridge itself wouldn't have lots of potential for good accuracy.

Nonetheless, I'm not aware of any formal target competitions where the .40S&W is used, so there's likely little incentive to develop target-grade .40S&W guns and loads that are as accurate as current target guns.

 

[MASTARBLASTER]

Below are 3 consecutive sub-3" 25 yard groups I shot (unsupported) with my M&P40 on my first range trip with it. The ammo were my initial loads I slapped together for this range trip.

Given that these were the first shots from a new-to-me factory stock striker-fired polymer gun, and the loads weren't optimized in any way, I don't see why the .40S&W cartridge itself wouldn't have lots of potential for good accuracy.

Nonetheless, I'm not aware of any formal target competitions where the .40S&W is used, so there's likely little incentive to develop target-grade .40S&W guns and loads that are as accurate as current target guns.

Now some would consider inquiring about that initial load recipe that produced such effective results at 25 yards, if not all the ingredients at least the powder of choice.

 

[SDGlock23]

Nothing inaccurate about the .40, some of the best groups I've every shot were with .40's. I don't really think there is such a thing as inherent accuracy to begin with.

 

[MrBorland]

Now some would consider inquiring about that initial load recipe that produced such effective results at 25 yards, if not all the ingredients at least the powder of choice.

Clay's over a 180gr Berry's. It's a practice/match load, so it's not full power. Clay's isn't likely a good choice for full power or for target loads, but it works ok for these.