Will Striker Fired Pistols w/ Short and Light Triggers Cause More Acc Discharges ?

[Straight Shooters]

I am refering to striker fired pistols without thumb safeties, ones like the H & K VP9, Walther PPQ, Sig P320, Ruger LC9s Pro and other similar semi autos. These guns are getting excellent reviews but it got me to thinking maybe there's a downside to them.

I know the idea of having a thumb safety on any gun is a sin to some of you, but think about it. Some of these guns have less than 1/2" travel in the trigger combined with a light pull. It just seems to me that without the extra protection a manual safety offers they are potentially an accidental discharge just waiting to happen. And the trigger blade safeties they do have seem like a joke compared to what a manual thumb safety provides.

Yes I know one should keep their finger off the trigger until ready to fire, and you should keep the gun holstered as well, but in a high stress environment in the middle of a dark night I could envision an accidental discharge happening rather easily with bad results.

Your thoughts are appreciated.

 

[JTQ]

Every gun has strengths and weaknesses. You just need to decide which are important to you and if those strengths outweigh the weaknesses.

Seeing the status of a hammer can be beneficial for safety, though most hammer fired guns will need to be decocked or put on safe before they should be holstered. You don't have to remember to do that with a striker fired gun. Having a manual safety can be an advantage or disadvantage.

 

[jeepnik]

As with most things, it isn't the inanimate object that causes the problem. It is the idiot with the brain and opposable thumb that does.

 

[ATLDave]

I have concluded that, yes, those types of guns increase the likelihood of AD/NDs. Not so much because of people putting their finger on the trigger before they want the gun to fire (though I think that happens more than people like to admit, especially under pressure), but during holstering or other gun manipulations when something OTHER than a finger can get into the trigger guard. I have decided that I really want an "off switch" on any gun without a very long pull (like a revolver), especially if that gun is going to be holstered. Some say that this is a training issue, but any perceived problem associated with a manual safety is also a training issue.

Pick your poison. I'll holster guns thousands of times in my life. The likelihood is overwhelming that the number of times I'll really, really, really need a gun to go bang is somewhere between zero and one. Something that makes those thousands of times safer is a real benefit.

 

[Zendude]

Will Striker Fired Pistols w/ Short and Light Triggers Cause More Acc Dischar...

No matter how much you train, human beings can make an error, either in a stressful situation or in a situation where there is too little stress and get careless. I like a manual safety because i would have to make two mistakes simultaneously (safety off and finger on trigger) to result in a ND.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

There are striker-fired pistols with short and light triggers that can be had with SAFETIES. If a shooter thinks it's likely to be a problem, he or she can take that route.

 

[Slamfire]

I think so. I have a bias as I prefer pistols that function more like a double action revolver. Even so, I have heard a lot of "Cop Stories" about accidental discharges that occurred with Glocks.

 

[Sistema1927]

I wondered if this was an old thread revived from say 1985.

Many of us have been carrying light-pull, striker fired pistols since then without encountering a problem.

To each their own. Carry what you are comfortable with.

 

[jmr40]

The most common blunder among LE officials under stress is to forget to flip the safety to the fire position when they have to draw and fire their weapon. The delay could be deadly. This is the primary reason Glocks dominate LE handguns. They have no safety to forget.

Of course it has led to more AD situations. You have to decide which scenario concerns you the most. LE have overwhelming decided the benefits of no safety outweigh their negatives. I agree with their assessment.

 

[Straight Shooters]

The most common blunder among LE officials under stress is to forget to flip the safety to the fire position when they have to draw and fire their weapon. The delay could be deadly. This is the primary reason Glocks dominate LE handguns. They have no safety to forget.

Of course it has led to more AD situations. You have to decide which scenario concerns you the most. LE have overwhelming decided the benefits of no safety outweigh their negatives. I agree with their assessment.

I agree, in a LE environment even the slightest bit of delay can be fatal. And ( hopefully ) their additional firearm training helps prevent any accidents.

But for Joe homeowner who doesn't practice with his gun that much and thinks his new pistol with the latest and greatest trigger is best well.... maybe not.

Just this past week I wrote Walther and asked them if they had any plans to offer the PPQ M2 with a manual thumb safety and they said, "we have no plans to do so." I pray it's not going to take some tragic AD/NDs to change their mind for the civilian market.

Like alot of people I really like the PPQ, VP9, P320, and LC9s Pro but am having some reservations about getting one. To me when they have a round in the chamber it's akin to a SA Colt or Kimber cocked but not locked, or even having a safety for that matter - and you don't see that.

 

[ATLDave]

The most common blunder among LE officials under stress is to forget to flip the safety to the fire position when they have to draw and fire their weapon.

1. Source?
2. Number of officers injured by instances where they forget to flip the safety versus number injured by ND/AD?
3. Get a gun with a safety configured in the Browning fashion (frame mounted, down-to-fire) and there is NO conscious thought required to take the safety off... assume normal grip with thumb riding safety and the safety comes off on its own. Zero thought, zero time added, zero issue.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

The striker is the firing or ignition system, not the trigger system.

 

[JTQ]

jmr40 wrote,
The most common blunder among LE officials under stress is to forget to flip the safety to the fire position when they have to draw and fire their weapon. The delay could be deadly. This is the primary reason Glocks dominate LE handguns. They have no safety to forget.

ATLDave wrote,
Source?

Good point. Massad Ayoob has written on this subject. He found numerous instances where the presence of a manual safety or a mag disconnect safety saved an officer's life. I don't think he found any where the presence of a safety cost an officer their life.

 

[Jim K]

I don't know of anyone who is keeping track of such things. I don't even know of any reliable information on the number of ND/AD by police, let alone anyone else. The only statistics, and those not very reliable, are of officer shootings and officers being shot, but I am not aware of any national or state data base of shots fired that result in no injury.

In other words, any statements such as some of those quoted here are based, at best, on anecdotal evidence, at worst on suppositions based on "I don't like gun X, so I'll invent stories about it being dangerous".

Jim

 

[jmr40]

Let me clarify my post. I said

The delay could be deadly.

I never said I had any documentation of actual incidents, or that it would automatically get you killed.

But there is a reason why almost no one in LE is currently carrying a gun with a manual safety and many of those who do are trained to use it as a decocker only. Many years of training and evaluations of various gun designs has shown this to be a real issue under stress. It is the ONLY reason why most LE departments today are specifying guns with a DAO, DA/SA, or striker fired designs with no manual safety. If it hadn't proven to be a concern then there would be no reason to not specify guns with manual safetys.

There is also no doubt that this has led to an increase in AD's. But the LE community has overwhelmingly decided that the risk of a safety causing a problem is greater than the risk of an AD.

That mindset may well be changing as the number of police AD's seem to be getting more and more press. We may see a swing back toward some sort of active safety on handguns. But for now concerns over forgetting to manipulate a guns safety are very real in the LE community.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Will Striker Fired Pistols w/ Short and Light Triggers Cause More Acc Discharges ?

Not if you KYFFOTFT.

But, I still prefer the NY-1/3.5 lb connector setup in Glocks.

Deaf

 

[GLOOB]

In the short term, it might be the case for specific individuals or organizations. In the long run, IMO, no difference or a slight improvement.

There was a poll around here at one point where members described their ND's. If you ran the statistics, half of the ND's wouldn't have even been possible with a striker-fired gun. Long story short, if you put a hammer on it, someone is going to try to lower it, incorrectly. And of the rest, 90% of them wouldn't have mattered if there was a safety or not. Because the trigger was pulled, deliberately, with the intention of hearing a "click."

There's also possibility of increased ND's with a manual safety AFTER a stressor is over. If a gun is drawn but at the last second, it's not used. The wielder has to point the muzzle in a safe direction, replace the manual safety, and reholster. Oh, wait... there's something I'm forgetting, here. It's just hard to think right now. My finger is on something. Maybe I'm supposed to pull it?

Sounds unlikely, but all you have to do is look at police ND's on youtube. There is something to be said about not having extra steps and extra states of the gun.

I think the ultimate training handgun would be a gun that only "turns on" when a trigger finger is placed alongside the frame, and it only "stays on" for 3 seconds after that finger is removed or from the last shot fired. I bet that would reduce ND's. I'd call it the KYFFOTFT gun. Maybe make it a laser tag gun, or something, and have trainees run stages/scenarios with it. Heck, you could even put a sensor on the trigger, and if the trigger detects pressure at any time it's not pointed near an electronic target, the gun records the user fault for a points deduction.

Wanting to put your finger on the trigger is just a human fault. There's no way to unlearn that except by strict and exclusive repetition. But putting in a manual safety does very little to alleviate that problem.

 

[Valkman]

I've bought 2 Springfield XD45's and one XDS in .45 and none have a thumb safety but I buy them because they have a grip safety. After all these years shooting 1911's I really like that they are there. None of my guns have light triggers, and I might have a trigger kit put in but it's to improve the feel of it and not to lighten it, or not to lighten it much. These are HD/carry guns and I don't need or want light triggers on them.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot. Problem solved.

I'm sure someone will screw up eventually.

Deaf Smith said what I was actually thinking though.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

Re: LEO "accidents," striker-fired guns, and safety levers...

I've seen a video (on YouTube) where an LEO teaching a class did something stupid and shot himself in the leg. (I think I would have had snap caps on hand for a class... just showing them that the weapon was safe would have been an IMPORTANT point about firearm safety to get across to a class!) I have also heard stories (all anecdotal) where LEOs pushed guns into holsters without making sure the holster was clear -- and the trigger engaged something (like a ballpoint pen) it shouldn't have.

Those kind of problems aren't restricted to striker-fired gun, but we don't hear about it if it's not a Glock involved. Some of the folks who love to slam Glocks seem to look the other way when an ND occurs with a SIG or S&W or 1911.

I have had a number of friends who are or who were LEOs and a son who is a State Trooper; I have yet to hear, from them, of an instance where a quick draw (which might be impeded by a safety) was an issue. (And we do talk about ugly things that happen on the job.) Cops, nowadays, don't do the Matt Dillon/Gunsmoke shootouts of the old West. They are generally fore-warned and on the scene with weapons drawn before starting to engage a possible bad guy. Relatively few of them EVER fire their weapon anywhere but at the range or during periodic re-qualifications. They're more likely to get hurt in a domestic conflict, when the wife decides to change her mind about the call...

I'm confident Mas Ayoob doesn't make stuff up for his classes, but I think his focus (when teaching a class) is about making points that HE considers important (points which might represent a personal bias -- show me an instructor who doesn't have a bias) and making the class interesting, too.

 

[Zerodefect]

Training.

I train that the trigger finger should be touching nothing. Not the frame, not the trigger guard, nothing. The problem with the "rest it on the frame" guys, is that the frame doesn't feel much different than the trigger under stress.

Eventually, it comes naturally. Reholstering is the only time when a striker fired pistol is at a disadvantage. For that scenario, I choose a 1911.

 

[burk]

A few points:

1) The problem of a striker fired gun ND's is probably no more dangerous than a 1911 style thumb safety accidently disengaged and a gun holstered, or a DA/SA gun holstered after a round is fired and it's now in SA only. The reality is no system is safer than the users attention to detail, which is tough to expect in the height of the aftermath of a shooting incident. Remember pre-Glock most LE avoided 1911 style firearms due to drop safety issues. Very few LE agencies approved any Semi-autos for carry.

2) Springfield users, don't misunderstand me, the XD is a fine gun (not as sure about the XD-s). But a grip safety will not prevent "glock leg". It you are presenting a firearm out of a holster to deal with an incident properly you are going to be deprssing the grip safety when doing it. If you have your finger on the trigger you will get Springfield leg instead.

3) The key to carry of light DA pistols (and 1911 style pistols) is the holster PERIOD. You have a good one and handle the firearm properly, it should function just fine. If you want to throw a gun in a cheap fabric holster or Plaxeco style in the waist band of your sweat pants, by all means get something with a safety and preferably a longer DA trigger.

4) My main carry is a Glock 19, in my Multi-Holsters Kydex IWB or Alien gear IWB it carrys fine and I've never been close to Glock leg. But I also have a gun for sticking in the waist band of my shorts in a cheap holster, an older Ruger LC9, the trigger is like a revolver trigger, it has a safety, and a mag disconnect with 7 rounds of 9mm. To me it's the modern J-fram snubbie. For that application it's a great gun.

5) Like a few have alluded too, there is NO substitute for trigger discipline. Never have your figure on the trigger unless you intend to fire your gun. And this most certainly applies to holstering a gun. If you're getting shot in the leg when the incident is over, you didn't train right.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Well if you follow the Rules like keep your finger OFF the Trigger you Will be fine.

 

[Schwing]

Well if you follow the Rules like keep your finger OFF the Trigger you Will be fine.

While this is true most of the time I have personally SEEN a ND when a guy holstered his Glock and somehow managed to have a coat strap between the trigger and the holster. It blew I nice hole in his leg. There are even a couple of Youtube videos where this same type of scenario is caught on camera.

Google "Glock Leg" and you will hear other stories like this. While I agree with others that anyone can have a ND in a careless moment, Glock owners seem to have more instances of this. There was also a story here last year about an LEO who decided it would be a good idea to hang his Glock on a peg in the men's room by the trigger guard and blew away a perfectly innocent toilet when he tried to retrieve it and the peg pulled the trigger.

There seem to be merits and disadvantages to both styles of "Safety". Personally, I lean towards the manual thumb safety simply because I have carried one for decades. It was what I was trained with and what my muscle memory knows. While I don't work as an LEO, I work with them. It is true that the majority of the LEOs I know carry a Glock but there are many who still carry various firearms with a manual thumb safety. Those who nearly Biblically ascribe to one and denounce the other are just wearing blinders.

 

[Sal1911A1]

question

It seems we have manual safety on our M-4's and shotguns and that's accepted

But a manual safety on a handgun is taboo.

Training issue ????? can someone comment please

why firearms instructors and police and Federal Agency's dismiss a manual safety on a handgun
when manual safety's are on our long guns