Will Striker Fired Pistols w/ Short and Light Triggers Cause More Acc Discharges ?

[DeepSouth]

How many of you are comfortable enough to carry a Colt or Kimber permanantly cocked with the safety not only off but completely removed as well ???

So long as the trigger is covered, I'd be comfortable carrying it.

Different strokes for different folks, that's why they make differnt guns.

 

[george burns]

Anytime you get below a 5lb trigger on a carry gun, and you carry your gun loaded "with one in the pipe". which is the only way to carry a gun, you should invest in a premium holster that leaves no doubt that it can't be fired unless it's fully out and meant to be fired. The PPQ brought this debate to surface, but it quickly died down again.
If you practice enough , you should have no problems, anything under 4 lbs is really pushing the envelope for too many reasons to list, including nerves and fear. Everyone is different, and for some, it may be fine and for others could cause a lot of problems should it go off prematurely because of nerves or a mistaken sight picture, or god knows what else. Keep your finger off the bang switch.

 

[rskent]

shooters

Will Striker Fired Pistols w/ Short and Light Triggers Cause More Acc Discharges ?

I think jeepnik got it right. People have accidental discharges. I have a problem blaming the gun.

 

[benEzra]

Those pistols are intended to be kept in a holster that protects the trigger when chamber-loaded and not in use. The holster is part of the safety system.

If you personally want a striker-fired gun with a manual safety, you can get one. The Smith & Wesson M&P, FN FNS, etc. come with that option. It just appears that a majority of people disagree with you as to their advisability.

I personally do prefer a manual safety, ingrained because my first pistol was a PPK clone, but that doesn't mean my neighbor shouldn't be allowed to buy a gun without one.

 

[eldon519]

Straight Shooters,

For what it's worth, as they were developing the 1911 through various prototypes, early designs had no safety at all, then the grip safety was added, and then because the army wanted it so, the manual thumb safety was added. It's my impression that Mr. Browning thought it was just fine with nothing but a grip safety, and frankly I think that would probably be OK if you used proper discipline.

In general though, I think your premise is correct though that many striker fired guns are easier to ND. I think if the PPQ existed in numbers nearly as great as Glocks, you'd hear about them being a big culprit. The reset is too slight in my opinion, and I've doubled it on a range just trying to ride the bump in slow fire.

 

[Big_John1961]

There was also a story here last year about an LEO who decided it would be a good idea to hang his Glock on a peg in the men's room by the trigger guard and blew away a perfectly innocent toilet when he tried to retrieve it and the peg pulled the trigger.

How is this anything but a perfect example of sheer stupidity? The brand of the firearm involved is irrelevant.

 

[Sol]

No.

If you look at the totality of the hypothetical, an ND is caused by a finger or an object depressing the trigger.

If you have a saw that spins at 5000 rpm and a saw that spins at 50000 rpm and you cut your finger off with the 50000 rpm, you can't with any intellectual honesty say that using the slower spinning saw would have prevented you from cutting your finger off.

...because your finger never should have been near the blade to begin with.

 

[Plan2Live]

How is this anything but a perfect example of sheer stupidity?

Yes, this is a case of sheer stupidity.

The brand of the firearm involved is irrelevant.

Well, yes and no. A brand with a manual safety would have decreased the chances of the negligent discharge occurring. A brand with a backstrap safety or grip safety would have decreased the chances of a ND. A brand like the HK squeeze cocker would have almost certainly prevented a ND. Any brand Double Action pistol with a longer, stiffer trigger pull would have minimized the ND chances. So sometimes brand can make a difference.

 

[orionengnr]

I could envision an accidental discharge happening rather easily

No...you can envision a negligent discharge.

--An ND is user error.
--An AD is an equipment malfunction.

Big difference.

 

[Straight Shooters]

Well after reading how many of you still insist the fault of virtually all AD / NDs lies exclusively with the person erroneously putting their finger on the trigger, I am sorry to say I still reject the premise. Evidently you expect perfection from every person each and every time they handle a gun.

Obviously people are far from perfect and sadly accidents will always be a part of life no matter how much you preach or try to avoid them. ( Think of the terrific job Mothers Against Drunk Driving has done over the years, yet there are thousands of people still driving drunk every day ).

I do like the three guns I orginally mentioned, but IMO in their current configuation they are as unsafe to carry as a SA semi auto thats cocked with the safety off and completely removed. I am not offended by a thumb safety and evidently neither is the US Military as they've been using the Beretta M9 since 1985, that's 30 years of service in a war zone ! They obviously feel the benefits of a safety outweigh its liabilities, that's a heck of a testimonial.

For my needs it looks like the best choice is an Sr9. It still has a really nice trigger, thumb safety, good quality, and I can't believe it's great price for everything you get compared to the first three I mentioned. I also love the company as Ruger has always given me excellent service when I needed it.

It's been a good discusssion, I came here to learn and certainly did and appreciate everyones opinion.

Thanks and stay safe !

 

[JTQ]

While all my semi-autos have safety's, and I appreciate them being there, before you proceed, I'd ask the Ruger SR9 guys if they use the safety, and if they do, if it is easy to operate. The SR9 safety looks like it is small and difficult to operate.

 

[eldon519]

I don't mind thumb safeties but I think the Beretta M9 may have the worst manual safety I can think of. It flips the wrong way. It's in a spot where it is easy to actuate accidentally with an overhand slide rack. It also doesn't do anything to stop the trigger pull, so accidentally engaging the safety and pulling the trigger feels exactly like a dud primer, and you can then proceed to Tap-Rack through the rest of your magazine without getting to Bang unless you figure out your error. Also not to mention it piggybacks on a heavy DA pull which is a pretty valid safety system in its own right.

 

[Hangingrock]

Straight Shooters:

Well after reading how many of you still insist the fault of virtually all AD / NDs lies exclusively with the person erroneously putting their finger on the trigger, I am sorry to say I still reject the premise. Evidently you expect perfection from every person each and every time they handle a gun.

I don't think its to much to expect perfection from every person each and every time they handle a gun. Its called personal responsibility/accountability and thus competency.

 

[JTQ]

RE: Beretta 92FS

eldon519 wrote,
It also doesn't do anything to stop the trigger pull, so accidentally engaging the safety and pulling the trigger feels exactly like a dud primer, and you can then proceed to Tap-Rack through the rest of your magazine without getting to Bang unless you figure out your error.

I'm not a Beretta guy, but for clarity, are you saying when the M9/92FS safety is engaged, and you pull the trigger, the hammer comes back and releases, but just doesn't hit the firing pin?

I don't mind thumb safeties but I think the Beretta M9 may have the worst manual safety I can think of. It flips the wrong way. It's in a spot where it is easy to actuate accidentally with an overhand slide rack.

I'm always intrigued that this statement will come up in every Beretta M9/92FS thread within the first 10 posts, yet you can go through pages of posts in Ruger P-Series, S&W Traditional Double Action (TDA) auto, or Walther P-38 threads and never see this problem mentioned.

 

[ATLDave]

It's amazing watching people be so defensive about gun-involved accidents/negligence. Nobody is "blaming" the gun, nobody here has suggested liability to the manufacturer, nobody here has said that people shouldn't be allowed to own guns without safeties.

Does carrying/using a gun without an external safety increase the likelihood of an ND/AD? One can think that the answer to this EMPIRICAL question is "yes" while thinking that the owner/user of such a gun who experiences an ND/AD is 100% responsible for that.

Does owning an older Porsche 911 without traction control increase the odds that you will experience a trailing throttle oversteer accident? Yes, absolutely. Does that mean that a driver who is going fast around corners in an old 911 and gets himself in trouble isn't responsible for his own actions? No, it doesn't. But it is absolutely insane to be so worried about "shifting blame" from the driver to the car that one is unwilling to even have a discussion about whether the particular characteristics of that car increase the chances of that particular kind of accident, thus requiring even greater care and skill by the driver.

Car people are able to have such discussions. Gun people should be able to have such discussions. I understand that (well-founded) fear of prohibition makes us nervous about treating guns themselves as the cause of incidents, but we can't let that concern make us literally unwilling to talk - amongst ourselves! - about advantages and disadvantages of certain designs with some objectivity.

 

[Gary A]

ATLDave - well said. A light of reason!

 

[eldon519]

JTQ,

That's my recollection of the Beretta 92 safety's function (that you could still pull the trigger with it engaged) but perhaps I'm misremembering. Seems to happen more and more these days!

For what it's worth, I have also avoided the Rugers and old S&Ws because of the wonky safety operation. I don't like having big inconsistencies across the guns I own for self-defense. If somebody else doesn't mind or would prefer to dedicate themselves to the upward safety disengage, that is their call.

 

[JTQ]

That's my recollection of the Beretta 92 safety's function (that you could still pull the trigger with it engaged) but perhaps I'm misremembering.

While I have no experience with the 92FS/M9, I have some with TDA autos. Typically, with the safety engaged, you can pull the trigger, but the hammer will not come back.

...feels exactly like a dud primer...

To me at least, it won't feel anything like a dud primer, because the hammer doesn't come back and fall. It feels like the trigger is disengaged, since it is.

I'm primarily a 1911 shooter, but figuring out a slide mounted safety is not that hard. I'll agree though, that if you don't care for them you can easily pick something else without too much trouble.

For folks that can remember back far enough, the "sling shot" used to be the primary method for slide racking. However, when the Glock and the SIG became the primary guns in LE holsters, the "power stroke" became the favored technique because it "works for all autos", except when it doesn't. Using the "sling shot" technique for a gun with a slide mounted safety is probably a better method.

 

[Sol]

It's amazing watching people be so defensive about gun-involved accidents/negligence. Nobody is "blaming" the gun, nobody here has suggested liability to the manufacturer, nobody here has said that people shouldn't be allowed to own guns without safeties.

We are members of a pro 2A gun discussion board.

We aren't some random guys attorney or a police departments Public relations officer or union spokesperson doing a spin job or damage control.

 

[ATLDave]

Sol, exactly. So we ought to be able to have a discussion about whether the presence or absence of a manual safety has an incremental influence on the likelihood of an ND/AD without half the board shouting it down with bromides about booger hooks or forks causing eating disorders.

 

[X-Rap]

Again I'll claim confusion leads to ND's and if one can forget to remove the finger from the trigger they can forget to flip back the safety or forget that the safety has been flipped off. Worse yet IMO is the ND while the gun is actually used in defense when confusion/emotion will be at its peak and one forgets that he has put his finger on the trigger.
I don't see a clear winner in the ND prevention design category.

 

[ATLDave]

X-Rap, forgetting to remove one's finger from a trigger is making one mistake. Forgetting to apply a safety is a second mistake. An incident that requires two mistakes is generally going to be less common than an incident that requires one mistake.

But finger-on-trigger errors don't come close to accounting for all ND/AD's. Re-holstering provides a routine circumstance where ND/AD's can be caused by something other than a finger "pulling" the trigger. A shirt tail, a seat belt buckle, the edge of the holster itself...

 

[X-Rap]

When you read how almost every pistolaro with a 1911 drops the safety without having to think you need to understand that there really aren't two separated actions.
I fully agree on the holstering part and if I were doing general instruction I wouldn't allow anything but open top OWB holsters preferably of the Askins style, simple no straps, snaps or buckles. I think the tempo of a number of shooters and the instructor moving things along probably overlooks the hazard of those carrying in less than optimum gear for reholstering.
I think it's generally accepted that a shoulder holster is not proper for group training and given the tendency or requirement with some IWB and Appendix styles to push the barrel at ones self I think training with that style should be done in groups using those holsters so as to keep some continuity since slower and more cautious holstering is required.
That and stressing speed of draw not speed of reholstering, there is no logical reason to quickly return the gun to its holster.

 

[Fiv3r]

I think we should be honest with ourselves and admit that a firearm without a manual safety or sporting a "Safe Action" trigger simply doesn't tolerate the same level of improper handling as a revolver or a DA/SA or a pistol that is cocked and locked. There is no room for error.

The beauty of the Glock is the simplicity in its design. Pull the trigger, it goes bang. However, as others have mentioned, it really requires a good holster system. It's one of the reasons I never really liked carrying them IWB and preferred a nice chunky duty style holster. I never could get around to trusting the fair about of mush before BANG.

That said, I EDC a Beretta Nano. No external safety, so manual slide lock, no disconnect. About the only way to make the gun "safe" beyond dropping the mag and ejecting the chambered round is to depress the tiny recessed button that deactivates the striker. It's the posterchild of a point and click until the slide locks back defensive firearm.

I do prefer the smooth if a bit stiffer trigger on the Nano to any of the Glocks I have owned, though. It's probably about a 7-8lb trigger with a good deal or resistance before you feel it break. It actually feels a lot more like the squeeze of a spay bottle and almost revolver-like. I actually shoot it as well as I shoot a full size 9mm.

As someone who has to take his gun off before entering customer's homes or going into a government building, I much prefer a stout striker, a safety, or a revolver for a carry piece. Just makes me feel a lot more comfortable taking it off and storing it while sitting in my truck.

 

[X-Rap]

I'll go along with a DAO as being the safest design but it gives up to much in accuracy. DA to SA gives you nothing once the first shot goes down range and SA only has the same light trigger and the need to remember to reapply the safety or not take it off in the first place. Remember, we are talking about human failure as a cause.
There are also at least two types of ND's to address, one is reholstering on the range the other is shooting someone you may have the gun pointed at. I suspect the range problem is easier fixed than the high stressed latter.