Will Striker Fired Pistols w/ Short and Light Triggers Cause More Acc Discharges ?

[S&W620]

I've yet to have an issue with them.

Deaf Smith pretty much summed it up.

I've carried an M&P, Glock and VP9 and can't imagine what the issue would be. As far as reholstering, I don't know of any situation when it needs to be done quickly. Take your time and do it right, there is no reason to rush.

But, to each their own. If you're not comfortable with it, get a gun with a safety. At the same time, just because you're not comfortable with it doesn't make dangerous.

 

[Sergei Mosin]

All guns require safe handling. A gun with a manual safety or a heavy trigger is a little more forgiving of a handling error than a gun lacking those things. Glocks and guns of similar configuration are absolutely unforgiving of handling errors. Make a mistake, put a hole in something.

I own a couple of guns of that type (Glock 17 and VP9, with a Glock 21 or 41 under consideration) but I don't carry them.

 

[Straight Shooters]

While this is true most of the time I have personally SEEN a ND when a guy holstered his Glock and somehow managed to have a coat strap between the trigger and the holster. It blew I nice hole in his leg. There are even a couple of Youtube videos where this same type of scenario is caught on camera.

Google "Glock Leg" and you will hear other stories like this. While I agree with others that anyone can have a ND in a careless moment, Glock owners seem to have more instances of this. There was also a story here last year about an LEO who decided it would be a good idea to hang his Glock on a peg in the men's room by the trigger guard and blew away a perfectly innocent toilet when he tried to retrieve it and the peg pulled the trigger.

There seem to be merits and disadvantages to both styles of "Safety". Personally, I lean towards the manual thumb safety simply because I have carried one for decades. It was what I was trained with and what my muscle memory knows. While I don't work as an LEO, I work with them. It is true that the majority of the LEOs I know carry a Glock but there are many who still carry various firearms with a manual thumb safety. Those who nearly Biblically ascribe to one and denounce the other are just wearing blinders.

Very well put. Telling someone to "just keep your finger off the trigger" and you'll be fine doesn't account for the fact that people aren't perfect, accidents can and do happen. I just heard that during this 4th of July holiday nearly 400 people will be killed on the highways in traffic accidents. The equivalent thinking then would be to "just stay out of cars", not very practical.

There are more safety features on everyday items in our lives than on some guns, and they have saved countless lives. Though I will admit if someone is breaking into your house in the middle of the night you're not going to swat them with your hair dryer with the safety GFI plug ! lol

It'd be nice if the manufacturers I mentioned at least offered a choice of guns with a thumb safety, the Ruger lc9S does. But I doubt most will seeing how they're selling them faster than they can make them.

P.S. I feel sorry for that innocent toilet you mentioned that got shot, poor thing !

 

[JTQ]

burk wrote,
2) Springfield users, don't misunderstand me, the XD is a fine gun (not as sure about the XD-s). But a grip safety will not prevent "glock leg". It you are presenting a firearm out of a holster to deal with an incident properly you are going to be deprssing the grip safety when doing it. If you have your finger on the trigger you will get Springfield leg instead.

Up front, I'm not a Springfield XD owner. In your scenario of gun presentation, you are correct, there is no safety advantage for the grip safety equipped XD over the Glock. However, I suspect most "Glock leg" is accomplished during reholstering rather than during the draw. During reholstering, having a grip safety is a safety advantage.

 

[ritepath]

They're being sold to a lot of NEW non-gun folks as their first or only guns. They in turn take them and drop 'em in purses and stuff them down their pants with hours of "training" maybe, if any...


These people weren't around for the first 30 years of handgun ownership before getting their first striker fired no safety semi-auto. So they walk out with a pistol that only takes 5# of pressure to drive the firing pin home. These are the same folks that are used to poking phones, man handling various tools and devices without any worry of shooting a hole in their leg or kids head.

They don't know what a loaded chamber indicator is because people on forums they read say it's an idiots tool. They won't buy a gun with a trigger safety because the salesmen pushed the "you're too dumb to operate a safety" thought process.


They have zero idea what trigger finger discipline.

The most natural thing on earth is to pick up a gun and immediately stick your finger on the trigger. Sorry but these folks are a bigger danger to themselves than the 1:1,000,000 chance they'll be engaged in a gunfight they're not even prepared for.


Having a gun and silly little permit after 8 hours of training probably describes 98% of the new owners out there. Hopefully they won't kill themselves or a family member before learning beyond the basics.

 

[X-Rap]

The problem comes with confusion resulting with the finger on the trigger in the heat of action, to say that a striker fired pistol with a long trigger pull is more inclined to be the result of such confusion than a thumb safety SA with a much shorter trigger pull is a stretch to me. I have read enough and shot enough SA pistol to know how unconscious the sweep of the safety is and once it's off that gun becomes far easier to discharge than a striker, same can be said for a DA cocked.
DAO and Striker seem to be the safest IMO because they can be safely carried in loaded and ready condition without a safety engaged.

 

[1911 guy]

Here's my opinion, probably worth every penny you paid for it.

While there are some firearms that aren't particularly suited to certain endeavors, a shooter who knows their function will have fewer problems. For example, a heavy target rifle with a one pound trigger pull is not particularly suited to hunting, but it can be done.

The same applies to triggers and safeties on handguns. The problem is not a light pull, lack of safety or striker fired with no visible hammer to "remind" a shooter. The problem is shooters letting things into the trigger guard when they shouldn't. Everything from clothing drawstrings to "I had my finger on the trigger but didn't mean to shoot" has been blamed. The real problem is lack of understanding of function, complacency, inattentiveness to what is going on with the pistol, carelessness, and likely a combination of all these.

It's no secret I'm not a fan of the Glock guns, but only due to grip angle, not actual design flaw. If they changed grip angle closer to the 1911 or XD, I'd be first (or nearly) to buy one. I have never seen a ND that could be blamed on the gun with any probability.

For further example, when I let people shoot a particular 1911, I ask them to dry fire first. If they don't, too many inexperience shooters slap the trigger while still bringing the gun to the target and ND into the dirt or backstop. Experienced shooters have no problems. It's not the guns' fault, it's the shooter.

 

[Zerodefect]

It seems we have manual safety on our M-4's and shotguns and that's accepted

But a manual safety on a handgun is taboo.

Training issue ????? can someone comment please

why firearms instructors and police and Federal Agency's dismiss a manual safety on a handgun
when manual safety's are on our long guns

Long arms don't have holsters. That's the difference.

Finger off the trigger, and the other safety rules need to be adhered to during training, even when they don't quite apply. Dogmatic use of the safety rules properly during training can drasticly make your gun handling safer.

There are odd ball situations where weird techniques apply to maintain absolute commitment to the safety rules. Pro training is invaluable. After that, which pistol you choose, is hardly relevant. Most of them will be perfectly safe. A thumb safety on a 1911 is not an excuse to pass on training.

 

[GLOOB]

Long arms don't have holsters. That's the difference.

+1 on the holster. That's far and away the most important one.

In addition, there are other issues, here, as well. Most modern longarms are not drop-safe. A safety must be applied simply to ensure the gun does not fire when dropped! The Savage Accutrigger is a step in the right direction, but that still only stops the sear. There's nothing equivalent to a firing-pin safety in any longarm that I know of, and the firing-pin safety is largely considered mandatory kit for most new handguns designed for service/duty use.

Secondarily, a 5+ lb trigger with a long travel might be perfectly acceptable for a handgun, but for certain long-arms, that would be too much of a disadvantage.

I agree FOTFT fixes 90% of ND issues, but I don't think it's a simple problem. Humans are not born with that innate tendency. Even training is difficult to consistently apply and enforce, depending on the prevailing atmosphere and attitude. I have seen glaringly obvious and extended finger on trigger many times in competitions where it is only called about half the time. And police IN GENERAL are notorious for casual attitudes regarding gun-handling around other police and themselves. Something to do with desensitization, perhaps, or a macho-factor, or the attitude imparted from the top of the organization down. Acknowledging the problem doesn't fix it. But neither does a manual safety.

 

[Sulaco]

There is no such thing as an "accidental discharge".

There are intentional discharges (e.g., you point the firearm at the thing you wish to shoot and you pull the trigger causing the firearm to fire the cartridge),

and there are negligent discharges (e.g., you allow something to interfere with the firing mechanism of the firearm, thereby causing it to fire the cartridge).

There are no other types.

Coat strap get in the way? Edge of your holster, belt, shirt, jeans, etc. get in the way? Negligence. Trying to convince yourself otherwise just furthers the lie you tell yourself to feel better about it happening in the first place.

I've been handling and shooting firearms for all of my adult life and most of my childhood. I've never had a firearm fire unless I intended it to do so.

 

[razorback2003]

Most of the striker guns like Glock and Smith M&P have a somewhat of a long (when compared to a 1911) spongy trigger with some slack. The 1911 trigger is short and crisp. That spongy Glock or M&P trigger with slack in it seems pretty safe without a safety.

I see an advantage of the H&K LEM trigger because the pistol has a hammer but it is kind of a spongy DAO trigger that has slack in it. The hammer would come in handy when holstering.

I'm surprised that the H&K LEM pistols are not more popular because many have great grips, rust resistant like Glock, and polymer frame like Glock.

 

[DeepSouth]

I have to disagree with the premise of the question. I've probably shot hundreds of striker fired pistols, and I've never described any of their triggers as "short and light"

That baffles me, I have a KAHR that had a Cylinder & Slide trigger job done on it years ago and it's probably the best striker fired trigger I've ever felt and "short and light" doesn't describe it IMO.

Maybe I'm just to used to tuned 1911 triggers in the 2.5-3 lb range. I do shot them much more.



To the point of the OP, if you don't pull the trigger if want fire. If your afraid you may accidentally pull it then by all means buy a gun with a manual safety. I personally have no such fear.

 

[edmo01]

Training and practice are the key to handling your chosen firearm, regardless of the type of action.

Just because I buy a concert piano doesn't mean I'm now a concert pianist... I'll need a lot of training and practice first.

Edmo

 

[HexHead]

Most of the striker guns like Glock and Smith M&P have a somewhat of a long (when compared to a 1911) spongy trigger with some slack. The 1911 trigger is short and crisp. That spongy Glock or M&P trigger with slack in it seems pretty safe without a safety.

I see an advantage of the H&K LEM trigger because the pistol has a hammer but it is kind of a spongy DAO trigger that has slack in it. The hammer would come in handy when holstering.

I'm surprised that the H&K LEM pistols are not more popular because many have great grips, rust resistant like Glock, and polymer frame like Glock.

The LEM trigger isn't spongy. As for why HKs LEM trigger models aren't as popular as Glocks....because they cost about twice as much.

As for why safeties are accepted on shotguns and rifles, but not pistols, well, they aren't deployed in the same way. It's not the cop's primary weapon.

 

[Whirlwind06]

I have to disagree with the premise of the question. I've probably shot hundreds of striker fired pistols, and I've never described any of their triggers as "short and light"

Checkout the new Ruger lc9 pro at most it's a 4 pound trigger, with very short travel.

I agree it's a training issue and awareness issue, but as someone else posted, how many of these guns are being sold to first tme buyers with little or no experience with hand guns.

 

[MIL-DOT]

As is typical, whenever I've seen this subject brought up, on numerous forums, many people completely miss the point, and redunantly cite the fact that everything would be peachy if folks just kept their finger off the trigger.
While (largely) true, it sidesteps the OPs question. He's simply asking if pistols with these systems are more likely to experience AD's, and despite how many times any of us have NOT shot ourselves in the leg, the system itself IS inherently riskier.
I generally prefer to pocket carry a smaller pistol in a pocket holster, as per our state law. I used to carry a G26, but I was never very comfortable carrying it chambered. I now carry a DOA airweight revolver, or a gen3 S&W that has a de-cocker. This greatly reduces the changes that some little slip-up is going to send an unintended round into something.
Whether or not this would ultimately be my fault (as it would be) is not the issue, the issue is the fact that these type of pistols ARE mechanically more prone to an accidental discharge than some other designs.
It is not a criticism of the weapon, or meant to absolve repsonsibility, but it is a fact of the system.

 

[DeepSouth]

Checkout the new Ruger lc9 pro at most it's a 4 pound trigger, with very short travel.

They must have changed them very recently? I've felt the LC9's trigger as recently as 2 weeks ago in a gun store and it had a terrible trigger. As a matter of fact my wife went with a LCR because it had a better trigger, and it didn't have slide to "fiddle with"

If that's acurate it'll be a great seller.
But 4lbs still isn't dangerously light, that'd probably be just right for a carry gun.

 

[Hangingrock]

In my opinion there are those amongst us that should not own firearms for the safety of themselves and the potential safety of all others. Differentiate between accidental and negligence. Its the negligent operator not the weapon that's the problem.

 

[drband]

They must have changed them very recently? I've felt the LC9's trigger as recently as 2 weeks ago in a gun store and it had a terrible trigger.

LC9 is hammer fired and does have an awful trigger. The LC9sPro is striker fired (s for striker) and has a very good trigger.

 

[PO2Hammer]

I like my HK's ability to be de-cocked and locked in case I want to slip it into my waistband in the middle of the night. I would never do that with a Glock style pistol.

 

[DeepSouth]

LC9 is hammer fired and does have an awful trigger. The LC9sPro is striker fired (s for striker) and has a very good trigger.

I think I knew that

This is me feeling stupid. I've never seen a LC9s and only handled a a LC9 a couple times in a store.

 

[MIL-DOT]

Its the negligent operator not the weapon that's the problem.

Outstanding job missing the point.....yet again. No one is blaming the weapon, or absolving of responsibility an owner that had an AD, the question is whether these designs are inherently riskier, which they are. My Walther P99 is also a striker fired pistol, but it's ability to de-cock makes it considerably safer and less likely to accidentally discharge while chambered, than a Glock. That isn't a criticism of Glocks, it's just the simple fact of the matter, and it's what the OP is addressing.

I like my HK's ability to be de-cocked and locked in case I want to slip it into my waistband in the middle of the night. I would never do that with a Glock style pistol.

Exactly, and agreed.

 

[Hangingrock]

Mil-Dot

my walther p99 is also a striker fired pistol, but it's ability to de-cock makes it considerably safer and less likely to accidentally discharge while chambered, than a glock. That isn't a criticism of glocks, it's just the simple fact of the matter, and it's what the op is addressing.

Simply out standing example of missing the point between accident and operator negligence. You do comprehend the difference between the meaning of accident and negligence????????????

 

[Zerodefect]

As is typical, whenever I've seen this subject brought up, on numerous forums, many people completely miss the point, and redunantly cite the fact that everything would be peachy if folks just kept their finger off the trigger.
While (largely) true, it sidesteps the OPs question. He's simply asking if pistols with these systems are more likely to experience AD's, and despite how many times any of us have NOT shot ourselves in the leg, the system itself IS inherently riskier.
I generally prefer to pocket carry a smaller pistol in a pocket holster, as per our state law. I used to carry a G26, but I was never very comfortable carrying it chambered. I now carry a DOA airweight revolver, or a gen3 S&W that has a de-cocker. This greatly reduces the changes that some little slip-up is going to send an unintended round into something.
Whether or not this would ultimately be my fault (as it would be) is not the issue, the issue is the fact that these type of pistols ARE mechanically more prone to an accidental discharge than some other designs.
It is not a criticism of the weapon, or meant to absolve repsonsibility, but it is a fact of the system.

You do have a point there.

At the end of the day, after all the banter, The Striker Fired owners are most likely to shoot themselves, and the 1911 owners seem to be the least.

 

[Straight Shooters]

As is typical, whenever I've seen this subject brought up, on numerous forums, many people completely miss the point, and redunantly cite the fact that everything would be peachy if folks just kept their finger off the trigger.
While (largely) true, it sidesteps the OPs question. He's simply asking if pistols with these systems are more likely to experience AD's, and despite how many times any of us have NOT shot ourselves in the leg, the system itself IS inherently riskier.

Thank you, that is what I was driving at.

For example the Walther PPQ M2 has a trigger travel of just .4" for the first round, even less thereafter. This is very close to the trigger travel a cocked SA Colt or Kimber has. So because the PPQ has no safety its basically equivalent to a permanantly cocked Colt or Kimber with NO option of ever putting the safety on. How many of you are comfortable enough to carry a Colt or Kimber permanantly cocked with the safety not only off but completely removed as well ???

This is how the VP9, PPQ M2, and Sig P320 make me feel. Yeah I know what you're thinking, find another gun then.... I'm working on it but also hoping maybe these manufacturers will get the message and offer a model with a thumb safety too.