dh1633pm
Contributing Member
I have some 231. Was going to load some 45 acp with it. Might use it for 9 since I am about out of No 7.
Winchester 231 Powder
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ArchAngelCD
Member.
I can load all my handgun cartridges and load them well with just 3 powders.
W231 / HP-38 (same powder)
W571 / HS-6 (same powder but W571 is discontinued)
W296 /H110 (same powder)
If anything happens to HS-6 or W231 I can go to W572 and W244 and be happy but they aren't going anywhere soon.
W231 / HP-38 (same powder)
W571 / HS-6 (same powder but W571 is discontinued)
W296 /H110 (same powder)
If anything happens to HS-6 or W231 I can go to W572 and W244 and be happy but they aren't going anywhere soon.
Somehow my original post is being redirected. My question was why do Speer & Oregon Trail have different loads for HP38/W231 with the same bullet. It’s been suggested they had different lots of the powder & due to lot variation they tested different. Every powder has lot to lot variation and that’s built into the loading data. Speer has no reason to treat this powder differently. I use the two powders interchangeably but it would appear Speer & Oregon Trail don’t think I should. I suspect there isn’t anyone other than the author of the current manual who knows why that is. At any rate, this is pretty OT for the original post so I’m done.
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Charlie98
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I understand your confusion... pick one, or do what I would do, try to match the data from Speer with another source to verify it. Starting data should be safe with either powder, to include lot variations, etc.
It's my understanding that W231 and HP38 were two different powders at one time... someone correct me if I'm wrong... which is why older data would show 2 different loads for the same bullet with those powders. Further, testing methodology has improved over the years, giving us more accurate data... the change from CUP to PSI, for example. Always look for the most up-to-date data you can find.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
That is a question you will need to ask Speer.
As for W231 and HP-38 being the same powder, go to the source.
Many of us, myself included have asked Hodgdon and St. Marks Powders about those 2 products. I was told they are the same powder and ALWAYS HAVE BEEN! No need to believe us or argue the point here, do the work we did and ask the source. I will never answer this question ever again, it's a waste of time.
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Fooey
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Amen to reading the manuals. Doesn't anyone use any common sense anymore? Reloading isn't an exact science or rocket science. It is more like medical science. Ever wonder why Dr's are said to "practice medicine"? Because every patient is different. Reloaders "practice ammo production". Every thing we use to load with fluctuates like the weather. If you change anything in your load (gun included) you work up from low again.
lordpaxman
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Lennyjoe
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Sparkyv, interested in your 10MM results with W231. I have several lbs of it and use in 9Mm and .45 but haven’t tried in 10MM.
GeoDudeFlorida
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I thought it was called "practicing" because they could never get it right.
Come to think of it, that is a lot like handloading.
JimKirk
Member
Charlie98
Member
See... you learn something new every day...
I've often wondered if their end goal with W244/W572 was to phase out W231/W570...
OP,
1. Your question has been answered many time here. If you are worried about a discussion going off topic then never post on the internet. That is just the way it is.
2. Many have confirmed directly from Hogdens that W231 and HP-38 are the same powder in different cans. If you don't believe us (and maybe you shouldn't) then call Hogdens and Speer directly.
3. You make assumptions that Speer took different lots into consideration when they posted their data. Who told you that? If you didn't get that directly from the staff at Speer who did the testing, then it is just an assumption.
4. You are overthinking this a bit. Reloading is an "exact" "art"! Reloading manuals are a guide only. They are to keep you out of trouble with your first load. No Reloading manual will tell you the best load for YOUR gun. Each gun is unique. Chamber dimensions are slightly different in each one. You must start low and work up to a load YOUR gun likes and is safe. Use the published data to make sure you are not going into dangerous territory.
5. After one has several years of experience, then you can experiment a little. I have a few loads that are over published max but are perfectly safe in MY gun. BUT, I have also seen some published max loads that were incredibly dangerous in MY guns.
6. I fully understand the confusion when a publisher posts different max loads for the same powder but there are too many variables that could explain it. Are they using different lots, did they use the same test barrel, did they perform the tests at the same temperature? Unfortunately, they don't tell you these these things. It's kind of like someone posting load data without giving the OAL. Any load data that does not give the bullet type and OAL is worthless.
7. So, take whatever maximum load data is posted, back it off 10% (unless you are using H110 and then only back off 3%) and work you way up until you get the load you want that does not exhibit pressure signs. A chronograph is a huge help here. There is no way to find the load that is best for your gun without doing the work. So many today want instant gratification. That doesn't mix well with the art of Reloading.
1. Your question has been answered many time here. If you are worried about a discussion going off topic then never post on the internet. That is just the way it is.
2. Many have confirmed directly from Hogdens that W231 and HP-38 are the same powder in different cans. If you don't believe us (and maybe you shouldn't) then call Hogdens and Speer directly.
3. You make assumptions that Speer took different lots into consideration when they posted their data. Who told you that? If you didn't get that directly from the staff at Speer who did the testing, then it is just an assumption.
4. You are overthinking this a bit. Reloading is an "exact" "art"! Reloading manuals are a guide only. They are to keep you out of trouble with your first load. No Reloading manual will tell you the best load for YOUR gun. Each gun is unique. Chamber dimensions are slightly different in each one. You must start low and work up to a load YOUR gun likes and is safe. Use the published data to make sure you are not going into dangerous territory.
5. After one has several years of experience, then you can experiment a little. I have a few loads that are over published max but are perfectly safe in MY gun. BUT, I have also seen some published max loads that were incredibly dangerous in MY guns.
6. I fully understand the confusion when a publisher posts different max loads for the same powder but there are too many variables that could explain it. Are they using different lots, did they use the same test barrel, did they perform the tests at the same temperature? Unfortunately, they don't tell you these these things. It's kind of like someone posting load data without giving the OAL. Any load data that does not give the bullet type and OAL is worthless.
7. So, take whatever maximum load data is posted, back it off 10% (unless you are using H110 and then only back off 3%) and work you way up until you get the load you want that does not exhibit pressure signs. A chronograph is a huge help here. There is no way to find the load that is best for your gun without doing the work. So many today want instant gratification. That doesn't mix well with the art of Reloading.
Fooey
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Just for safety sake .... I tried to add a smiley face
Last year I realized how many different powders I had accumulated over the years. So, I started using them up and am paying more attention to which powders I can use on multiple guns. Almost all my rifles can be fed with H4895 (meters well) without using way more than another. (Hate using 100 gr. of powder when 50 of another will do.) I like A1680 with 300BO. 296 and 231 will cover most handguns fine but sometimes Bullseye will do it with much less charge. Have not loaded for the M1 Carbine yet but have a lb. of ImR 4759 to use up on that and then it will probably eat 296/110, whichever is cheaper where I can find it. Got 3 lbs. of H322 that my Rem 788 .222 shoots one ragged hole with to use up. Maybe it will like H4895 also. To sum it all up, 3-5 powders should take care of all my guns instead of 10-15. By the way I am not a competition shooter so although accuracy is important it is not critical as I am just a have a good day at the range with the son and grandson type of guy where they shoot most of my ammo anyway! :>) YOu other old geezers know what I am talking about right?
Fooey
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Right you are! When they don't have exactly what you are looking for the common sense comes into play. Sometimes we have to make some assumptions and sometimes we use our 20/30/40 yrs of experience to back up our assumptions {or are they educated guesses?} lol, I not sure. Have a Merry Christmas fellows!
There are a couple powders I’d buy in 8 lb jugs if I could find them. W231 is one of them. That would be nearly a lifetime supply for me unless I started serious competition shooting. I’m about to try it in my 30-30 for downloaded small game type loads.
rfwobbly
Member
There are lots of "same-same" powders....
Winchester 231 = Hodgdon HP-38
Winchester WAP = Ramshot Silhouette
Winchester 296 = Hodgdon H110
Winchester 540 = HS6
Winchester 571 = HS7
Winchester 760 = Hodgdon H414
AS30N = Hodgdon Clays
Trail Boss = Hodgdon Trail Boss (funny how that one works)
AS50N = Hodgdon International Clays
AP70N = Hodgdon Universal Clays
AR2205 = Hodgdon H4227
AR2207 = Hodgdon H4198
AR2219 = Hodgdon H322
Bench Mark 2 = Hodgdon Benchmark
Bench Mark 8208 = IMR 8208 XBR
AR2206H = Hodgon H4895
AR2208 = Hodgdon Varget
AR2209 = Hodgdon H4350
AR2213SC = Hodgdon H4831
AR2217 = Hodgdon H1000
AR2225 = Hodgdon Retumbo
AR2218 = H50BMG
Hope this helps.
Palladan44
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At one time Winchester discontinued making the most popular rifle ever made, the model 94.
If they stopped making W231, I wouldn't be surprised, but I doubt they will.....unless they are trying to phase out the Winchester brand altogether........ who really knows what's going on in the corporate conglomerate world....people making decisions who are so far separated from you and I that its mind boggling.
I currently have 8 lbs of W231 that's about 16 years old, it was around 100$ for it back when...
My average loads I use it for in many calibers, average out to about 4.3 grains per round, so if I do the math right, I've got about 13,500 rounds to load with it in my future. I figured they made 8-pounders for a reason, the writing was on the wall.
If they stopped making W231, I wouldn't be surprised, but I doubt they will.....unless they are trying to phase out the Winchester brand altogether........ who really knows what's going on in the corporate conglomerate world....people making decisions who are so far separated from you and I that its mind boggling.
I currently have 8 lbs of W231 that's about 16 years old, it was around 100$ for it back when...
My average loads I use it for in many calibers, average out to about 4.3 grains per round, so if I do the math right, I've got about 13,500 rounds to load with it in my future. I figured they made 8-pounders for a reason, the writing was on the wall.
markr6754
Member
HP-38 was my first powder (2/1/2018 - $24.99). It works so well I could have stayed with it. But, I was a brand new reloader, (I bought CCI 550 instead of CCI 500), and wanted to try other powders as I read these forum posts. I quickly learned that Hodgdon's and Winchester have several interchangeable (read identical) powders, but Hodgdon is always slightly cheaper. It may be a buck or two here and there...but it all adds up. My first 8lb jug was also HP-38, followed by Universal, CFE-BLK, and Hi-Skor 700-X.
I find this comment very encouraging as I bought 2 - 8lb jugs of Universal. Since finding it to be my least favorite powder I'm praying that it stays healthy for as long as your HP-38, as it's likely to be part of my estate. It's funny (sad?) that during this entire pandemic product shortage, I never encountered anyone looking for more Universal.
Palladan44
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Universal appears to be right next to Unique on the powder burn rate chart.... hmmmm.
IMO your 16 lbs of Universal is your best friend you just might not know it yet.
IMO your 16 lbs of Universal is your best friend you just might not know it yet.
HP-38 was my first powder (2/1/2018 - $24.99). It works so well I could have stayed with it. But, I was a brand new reloader, (I bought CCI 550 instead of CCI 500), and wanted to try other powders as I read these forum posts. I quickly learned that Hodgdon's and Winchester have several interchangeable (read identical) powders, but Hodgdon is always slightly cheaper. It may be a buck or two here and there...but it all adds up. My first 8lb jug was also HP-38, followed by Universal, CFE-BLK, and Hi-Skor 700-X.
I find this comment very encouraging as I bought 2 - 8lb jugs of Universal. Since finding it to be my least favorite powder I'm praying that it stays healthy for as long as your HP-38, as it's likely to be part of my estate. It's funny (sad?) that during this entire pandemic product shortage, I never encountered anyone looking for more Universal.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
I like W231 so much I bought in bulk. I don't care for the 8lb bottles because of the size but I do buy several 4lb bottles at a time. Its one of the few powders still offered in 4lb bottles.
Targa
Member
I am glad to hear the positive reviews of W231. A friend gave me an unopened 8lb jug of the stuff that I plan to use once my Universal powder is gone.
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